Volume 3 - Bedford v Canada: Safe Haven Initiative

293
Court File No. 07-CV-329807PDI
ONTARIO
SUPERIOR COURT OF JUSTICE
BETWEEN:
Terri Jean Bedford, Amy Lebovitch, Valerie Scott
Applicants
and
Her Majesty the Queen (in Right of Canada)
Respondent
AFFIDA VIT OF V ALERIE SCOTT
I, Valerie Scott, of the City of Toronto in the Province of Ontario, HEREBY MAKE
OATH AND SAY AS FOLLOWS:
I.
I was born in April of 1958 in the city of Moncton in the Province of New
Brunswick. My legal name is Valerie Simpson however all my wo~k in the sextrade has been done under the name of Valerie Scott and for this reason this
affidavit has been brought in the name I am most commonly known as in the
community.
2.
I moved to Toronto and around 1976 when I had reached the age of 18 I
began to work as an erotic dancer at the club formerly known as Stage 212 as well
as other venues. I continued in this line of work for seven years during which I
did not engage in sex trade work. Around 1982 I chose to no longer work as a
dancer due to the excessive amount of traveling involved. With a great deal of
travel, I would have to leave my son with a babysitter for weeks or even a month
at time and I could no longer continue under those conditions.
3.
At this point I chose to become involved in the sex trade. I had received
information through other girls at Stage 212 as well as from newspapers, that
working on the streets as a prostitute was dangerous and I came to believe that
294
those working on the streets were lucky to be alive. While working at Stage 212 I
became aware of others being given the opportunity to work from within the club
and pay a certain amount to the owners to attract clients for sex-work. I however,
much preferred to work as an independent operator.
4.
I was informed by those who were in the industry, and by my own
personal research, about a relatively new form of working. This involved the
placement of an advertisement in a local newspaper in the personal section. The
replies would then be collected from a box number. I began working out of my
own home using personal advertisements in the Globe and Mail. During this
time, even though I felt relatively safe working from inside my home, I still had
one fear. I believed that if something occurred I could not go to the police due to
the bawdy house provisions ofthe code.
5.
Working indoors allowed me the opportunity to take measures to ensure
my safety to the best of my ability. These measures included asking every client
for a home or an office telephone number where they could be reached at as well
as a name which I would verify using a phone book before I made any further
contact. I also screened my telephone calls and would not meet if I believed there
was any indication that harm would ensue. New clients would always be met first
at a public location in order for me to get a better grasp of what I would be facing.
6.
I believe that these factors served to protect me and this is why I
experienced no significant harm during the many years I worked out of my home.
7.
Around 1983 or 1984 the awareness of HIVIA IDS started to change the
nature of sex work by making the use of a condom an indispensable component of
safe practice. The clients I received indoors believed that since they were paying
a higher amount, they were entitled to refrain from the safer sex practice of using
a condom. ][ refused, and as a result, I lost nearly 85% of my clientele. Due to
this decrease in business I felt compelled to relocate onto the streets. The public
295
perception of street workers as having a higher propensity for acquiring sexually
transmitted diseases encouraged potential clients to use safer sex practices.
8.
I began working out on the streets in the Church St. and Wood Ave. area
around 1984. This was before the communication laws were put in place. Before
this law was enacted we were still able to take some measures that would reduce
the potential for harm. One such measure was working in pairs. While one sex
worker approached a potential client, the other would visibly write down the
license plate number of the vehicle in order to convey to the potential client that if
harm were to come, a method to trace back the encounter was available. In
addition, prior to the communication law, a prostitute could spend more time
speaking to and screening the potential client to increase their level of safety.
9.
Although these measures made working on the streets safer, the possibility
of harm was still a very real factor. Based on personal experience I can say that
while working on the streets I was subjected to many instances of threats of
violence, was placed in harms way from clients driving dangerously to elude the
police, and experienced verbal as well as physical abuse. Fortunately these
instances did not escalate into severe injury.
10.
I onlly spent four months working on the street. Even within this short
period of time I experienced the type of verbal and physical abuse experienced by
most street workers.
11.
Around this time, Rock Hudson, an icon for straight men, admitted openly
that he contracted AIDS, and this shed a new light on the disease by increasing
public awareness that this illness could affect heterosexuals and was not only a
homosexual problem. As a result of this changing awareness many of my former
clients were now prepared to practice safe sex and therefore I was able to move
back indoors for work purposes.
296
12.
I also became politically active regarding the sex trade industry at around
this point. I approached the AIDS committee of Toronto and collaborated with
them on the publishing of a pamphlet to raise awareness of the disease. Attached
hereto and marked Exhibit A is a true copy of the pamphlet that resulted from
this collaboration.
13.
I also recall John Crosby, then Minister of Justice under the Mulroney
government asserting on the radio that prostitutes were no better than vermin and
that the new communication laws were being contemplated to clean up the streets.
This statement provid~d me with a great deal of motivation to become involved in
activism in this field.
14.
I verily believed based on my experience that these new laws would be
harmful to those working on the streets, as they would make it more difficult for
women to avoid harm. Through my work I had heard of CORP (the Canadian
Organization for the Rights of Prostitutes) started by Peggy Miller in late 1983. I
contacted Ms. Miller and began attending meetings learning that the function of
the group was specifically to advocate the decriminalization of prostitution to the
Federal Government of Canada.
15.
Soon I had become a member of CORP and I worked politically to
achieve these goals. At this time there were roughly ten members, with all except
one working in the sex trade. I, along with Ms. Miller and Ms. Brown in 1984
went to Ottawa to provide submissions to the Legislative Committee on Bill C-49
on their proposal for the enactment of 'communication laws'. Our submissions
consisted essentially of warnings that the enactment of these laws would result in
the death and injury of women working on the streets. Despite our pleas however,
these laws came into effect. Attached hereto and marked Exhibit B is a true
copy of the proceedings in which I was present and Ms. Miller participated.
297
16.
After the enactment ofthe 'communication laws', I became more active in
speaking at universities and colleges about the realities of sex trade work and the
impact of the law on women working in this field. In fact CORP combined forces
with the National Action Committee on the Status of Women to issue an
emergency resolution calling for the repeal of the newly enacted communication
and related bawdy house and living on the avails legislation. Attached hereto
and marked Exhibit C is a true copy of the emergency resolution.
17.
Soon after the enactment of the' communication laws', we at CORP began
receiving calls from sex workers about the increased enforcement of the laws and
the prevalence of 'bad dates' (i.e. abusive and aggressive clients). In order to deal
with the everyday issues confronting sex workers, we decided to set up Maggies,
a drop in and phone center for sex workers. Eventually with modest funding from
the Ontario Ministry of Health and the Department of Public Health in the city of
Toronto we were able to set up this center in the Gerrard and Sherbourne area.
18.
Over the first 12-month period following the inception of Maggies I
personally spoke to roughly 250 sex workers, although I wasn't working all the
time. The main concerns that were conveyed to us involved violence from clients
and legal matters arising from arrests by law enforcement officials.
19.
In response to these concerns Maggie's began outreach services aimed at
educating sex workers primarily on the issue of safe sex, but also addressing other
issues in the course of our work. Attached hereto and marked Exhibit D is a
true copy of the pamphlet we prepared to educate sex workers about the risks of
communicable diseases.
20.
At this point in order to address the issue of violence against women in a
meaningful way, Maggies, with my participation, began compiling 'bad date'
lists, originally located on a poster at the drop in center and also circulated during
our outreach programs in the form of pamphlets to sex workers. Because law
298
enforcement was not doing enough to care for the safety and security of sex
workers we had to take these measures to help protect women from violence.
21.
Unfortunately, potential or actual clients were not the only perpetrators of
these incidences of abuse. Police officers in certain cases were also the
perpetrators of this violence against sex workers. I had a personal experience
with this when I was picked up by two police officers and driven to an isolated
factory in the west end of Toronto near the waterfront. After a quick interrogation
they told me to leave, but I soon realized I was in an area with guard dogs. I had
to run back and plead with the officer to let me in and drop me off at another area.
22.
The case of Brian Whitehead in 1992 is a particularly prominent example
of the dangers posed to sex trade workers by the actions of some police officers in
Toronto. Constable Whitehead, or "Spennwhale", as the sex worker community
knew him, had committed acts of aggression against many sex workers in the
Church and Gerrard area. During my time doing outreach work, I would
communicate with many sex workers in the downtown Toronto area and of those
that I spoke with during the period between 1990 and 1992 many individuals had
either had a personal encounter of abuse or forced sexual activities with a police
officer they knew as "Spennwhale" or knew of these occurrences from a fellow
sex worker.
23.
Mr. Whitehead was never charged with sexual assault. As a result, the
Ontario Civilian Police Commission held an inquiry in regards to one of the many
assaults Mr. Whitehead was responsible for. In this inquiry, concerning the case
of Jane Doe, it was ascertained that Mr. Whitehead had engaged in "possible
criminal offences of sexual assault and extortion" as wel1 as "corrupt practices
and deceit, according to the Code of Offences in the Police Act." In conclusion,
the Inquiry asserted that "[t]he attitude of internal affairs, as expressed in its final
submission, seems to be that its members have learned nothing from this Inquiry,
299
and have nothing to learn. This is an attitude that has to change." Attached
hereto and marked Exhibit E is a full copy of the Commission report.
24.
During the five years from the inception of the communication laws I
gained a great deal of knowledge into the issues facing sex workers and the
troubles they encounter on a daily basis. I believe that these new laws resulted in
many more missing women, many murdered women, increased incarceration, the
loss of children to CAS, and generally the exacerbation of the problems faced by
sex workers. In 1989, I appeared before the Justice and Solicitor General
Committee concerning the three-year review of Section 213 of the Criminal Code
to present my views. Attached hereto and marked Exhibit F is a true copy of
my presentation in these proceedings.
25.
I continued my work with Maggies until approximately 1990. At this
point my relationship with them ended and I took time away from Maggie's for
personal reasons. But before I left, I contributed to the creation of Stiletto, a
magazine designed to educate and address the issues faced by sex workers.
Attached hereto and marked Exhibit G is a true copy of the premier issue of
this magazine.
26.
I stopped working in the sex trade around 1993 due to chronic pain and for
the most pmi, spent the 1990s involved more deeply in personal issues and an
attempt to obtain a University degree.
27.
In 2000 I was again drawn to activism in this area. At this point I started
the group Sex Professionals of Canada (SPOC). I verily believed that there was a
political void as women were increasingly going missing and the issues and
concerns surrounding the sex trade had stayed the same or had become worse.
Maggies was still in operation at this time and my objectives in starting SPOC
were to continue and revitalize the work originally done through CORP.
300
Attached hereto and marked Exhibit H is a true copy of the pamphlet outlining
the objectives of SPOC
28.
In order to address some of these issues I set up a website and began
generating members and setting up meetings. As well, I organized and attended
rallies for the purpose of raising awareness and creating a forum where women's
complaints about the situation could be heard by government. Attached hereto
and marked Exhibit I is a pamphlet handed out urging an end to the violence
against women in the sex trade.
29.
I also set up a website which included among other things legal
information, analysis and discussion about the state of the law and its impact on
sex workers, as well as general information. I also began a new collection of 'bad
date' lists because I felt that the information provided by Maggies needed to be
expanded upon. Attached hereto and marked Exhibit J is a printout of the
SPOC website and the 'bad date' list available on the site.
30.
I am informed by my contacts in the industry and do verily believe that
nothing has changed since the 1990s in terms of the difficulties facing sex
workers today and that this is due entirely to the laws surrounding this matter.
Even when bad dates are reported and the sex crimes unit knows who the assailant
is, women are still terrified to come forward due to possible repercussions against
them and the inability of the government to protect their safety. I have coauthored an article on this matter with Professor Deborah Brock of York
University published in Xtra Magazine in October of 2003. Attached hereto and
marked Exhibit K is a true copy of this article.
31.
The law in effect deters sex workers from reporting the violence making
the apprehension of 'bad dates' who perpetuate this violence unlikely. Because of
this inability, we have been forced to take measures to protect ourselves such as
301
self-defense lessons. Attached hereto and marked Exhibit L is a true copy of a
pamphlet given to sex workers advertising self defense courses.
Although SPOC is not a call in center per se, I still receive roughly four or
32.
five inquiries a week, regarding 'bad dates', legal issues, or tax questions. I am
also still involved in speaking at colleges and universities to raise awareness of
the issue.
I am now the executive director of SPOC and in my capacity as director,
33.
and through my two decades of work in the sex trade, I have acquired a great deal
of knowledge about the trade and those working in it. I keep in regular contact
with a fair amount of people that are involved in some manner in the sex work
industry. My work with SPOC has been documented recently as well in
magazines. Attached hereto and marked Exhibit M is a true copy of an
interview I conducted with Fab magazine in April of2005.
34. .
By letter dated 2004, I expressed my concerns regarding this matter to The
Honorable Bill Graham, the Member of Parliament for my riding. Mr. Graham
subsequently passed the letter on to then Minister of Justice Mr. Irwin Cottier. I
received a response to this letter from the Honorable Irwin Cottier dated April 27
2005. Attached hereto and marked Exhibit N are both the original letter and
the response received.
35.
In order to address these issues, I have attempted to shed light on the
problem through attendance and participation at the 2005 House of Commons
"
Subcommittee on Solicitation Laws in my capacity as the executive director of
.
SPOc. Attached hereto and marked Exhibit 0 is a true copy of my testimony
before the subcommittee.
36.
In December 0[2005 in an attempt to persuade government to address the
impact of the law in perpetuating violence against women, I sent out letters to all
302
308 Members of Parliament addressing our concerns specifically in regards to the
'living on the avails', 'communication', and "bawdy house legislation'.
Attached hereto and marked Exhibit P is a true copy of both the media release
and a letter sent to the Right Honorable Paul Martin.
37.
In the future, I hope to be able to continue my involvement in sex work in
an indoor location where I can have the ability to better protect myself. At the
present however, I am compelled to abstain from this work as I feel that the
consequences of receiving a conviction under the 'bawdy house legislation' are
too great.
38.
I make this Affidavit in support of the Application that s. 210, s. 212(1 )(j),
and s. 213(l)(c) of the Criminal Code be declared of no force and effect and for
no improper purpose or motive.
Sworn before me at
"
the City of --r;(QJ1~
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Valifie Scott
303
This is Exhibit
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referred to in the affidavit of
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this ~~
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RUBBER SEX IS
'SAFESEX
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next five or ten years, and maybe longer;
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you can do to c,ut down your chances of getting
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mutual masturbation
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body-to-body rubbing
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deep, wet kissing
watersports - external only.
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without a condom
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swallowing semen.
swallowing urine
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sharing sex toys
305
This is Exhibit ----"=B"'--_referred to in the affidavit of
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306
BILL C-49 CRIMINAL CODE (AMDT.--PROSTITUTION)
Legalization-Cont.
Health care, 5:44-5
Liberal Party position, 1:24; 4: II
. Marketing implications, 3:22-3
New Democratic Party position, 4: 17
Public opinion poll, 1:23
Legislative committees
Panel of Chairmen, 1:10
Role, function, standing committees comparison, 1:8-10
Liberal Party see Criminal Code (amdt.-prostitution)(BiII
C-49)-References; Legalization; Street soliciting
Lobbying see Vancouver, B.C.-Mount Pleasant
Los Angeles see Street soliciting-Prostitutes, Deaths
Majority vs minority rights, 2:38-9, 41-3; 3:9, 24; 5:13,22,29,54; 8:9
Male prostitutes, 2:58
See also Juvenile prostitution; Street soliciting
Manitoba see Street soliciting-Prostitutes
Massage parlours, 3:30
See also Halifax, N.S.
McCullen, Aida ~ee Halifax, N .S.
McEachern, Mr. Justice Alan see Vancouver, B.C.-British Columbia
McKinnon, Hon. Allan B. (PC-Victoria; Chairman)
Procedure
Acting Chairman, Chairman appointing; M. (Bourgault), 1:7
Chairman, appointment by Speaker, 1:6
Decorum, 3: 14
Meetings, scheduling, 1: I 0
Members, absence, 3:20
Organization meeting, 1:6-11
Printing, minutes and evidence, M. (Belsher), 1:7
Questioning of witnesses, time limit, 8:51-2
Quorum, lack, 4:5; 8:40, 49
Quorum, meeting and receiving/printing evidence without, M.
(Thacker), 1:6
·Steering.group, establishing, 1:7-8, 10-1
Witnesses, anonymity, requesting, 2:4
Witnesses, appearance before Committee, 3:20
McLachlin, Madam Justice see Canadian Charter of Rights and
Freedoms-Age
McLaughlin, Wade see Police-Discretionary powers; Street
soliciting-Public place
McNutt, Mr. Howard (Downtown Halifax Residents' Association)
Criminal Code (amdt.-prostitution)(Bili C-49), 3:3-9,15-6,19-20,
24-5,27,31-3,35-6
Miller, Ms Peggy (Canadian Organization for the Rights of
Prostitutes)
Criminal Code (amdt.-prostitution)(Bill C-49), 2:3-5, 7-14,16-8,
20-7,29-36, 38-40, 43, 49-59
Reference, 8:47
Mills, John Stuart, reference, 7:8
Minimum wage, inadequacy, allegations, 2:48, 52-3
Mitchell, Ms Margaret (NDP-Vancouver East)
British Columbia, 2: 16-7
Criminal Code (amdt.--,-prostitution)(Bill C-49), I: 13, 31,37-41;
2:14-7,19,21; 4:52-3,55-8,65
Decriminalization, 2:14
5
Mitchell, Ms Margaret-Cont.
Juvenile prostitution, 1:40; 2: 14; 4:57-8
Montreal, Que., 1:40
Procedure
Room, 1:14
Votes in House, M. (Nunziata), 2:21
Prostitutes, 2: 17
References, 4:34
Street soliciting, 1:39-41; 2:14; 4:52-3
Vancouver, B.C., 1:39; 2:14-5; 4:53,56
Women's groups, 1:40
Mobility rights see Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms
Montreal, Que., 2:41
Anti-prostitution campaign, 5:15
Expo '67/Expo '86 comparison, 5:19-20
Pimps, increase in numbers, 6:9, 19-20
Police Department, morality squad, female officer representation.
etc., 6: 13, 22-3
Street soliciting by-law, 1:15, 31, 34, 40-1; 5:5-6,16, 25 c 6; 8:11-2
Customers, prosecuting, 8: 12
Nuisance, focus, 4: 18, 30
See also Juvenile prostitution-Male; Witnesses
Moody, Mr. James (City of Niagara Falls)
Criminal Code (amdt.-prostitutionHBili C-49), 5:3, 19,26,28,
33-4
Morality, private, legislating, 4:6; 5: 13, 30
Morality squads see Police
Morrison, Judge Nancy see Juvenile prostitution-Fraser Committec
Mosley, Mr. Richard (Justice Department)
Criminal Code (amdt.-prostitution)(Bili C-49), 8:4, 31,33,39-40
Motels see Juvenile prostitution
Motor vehicles see Street soliciting-Nuisance-Public place
Mount Pleasant see Vancouver, B.C.
Mount Pleasant Action Group see Witnesses
Mount Pleasant Citizens' Planning Committee see Witnesses
Municipalities
Brothels, licensing, 2:27-8; 4:13-6, 25-6, 30; 5:37; 6:28-9; 7:10,14-5.
28
Criminal law-making authority. over-ruled, Supreme Court of
Canada decision, Fraser Committee. recommendations. etc.,
1:13; 4:12; 7:5
Mayors, support for Bill C-49, 8:9
Nuisance by-laws, 4: 12,33,68; 5:7, 10-1, 35-7; 7: 11,20
Regulatory authority, 5:7, 34-8
Street soliciting by-laws, 1:15,31-2,36-7; 4:12,18; 5:25
Arrests, sex bias allegations, 4: 18
Constitutional difficulties, 1:34; 5:14
See also individual municipalities
Nairobi, Kenya see Juvenile prostitution
National Action Committee on the Status of Women, 8:53
See also Witnesses
National Association of Women and the Law see Appendices;
Witnesses
Native women see Street soliciting-Prostitutes
Neighbourhoods see Street soliciting
307
t9
2:3
Projet de loi C-49
22-10-\985
MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
PROCES-VERBAL
TUESDA Y, OCTOBER 22,1985
LE MARDI 22 OCTOBRE 1985
(3)
(3)
I Text]
[Traduction]
The Legislative Committee on Bill C-49, An Act to amend
the Criminal Code (prostitution), met at 3:32 o'clock p.m. this
day, the Chairman, Honourable Allan McKinnon, presiding.
Le Comite legislatif sur Ie projet de loi C-49, Loi modifiant
Ie Code criminel (prostitution), se reunit ce jour a 15 h 32,
sous la presidence de l'honorable Allan McKinnon,
(president).
Members of the Committee present: David Daubney, Jim
Edwards, Bruce Halliday, Ken James, Allan Lawrence,
Margaret Mitchell, Rob Nicholson, John V. Nunziata,
Lawrence O'Neil, John Oostrom, Lucie Pepin, Svend RobinIon and Gordon Towers.
Other Members present: George Baker, Lise Bourgault,
Pauline Browes, Mary Collins, Alex Kindy, Don Ravis, Carlo
Rossi and Brian Tobin.
Membres du Comite presents: David Daubney, Jim
Edwards, Bruce Halliday, Ken James, Allan Lawrence,
Margaret Mitchell, Rob Nicholson, John V. Nunziata,
Lawrence O'Neil, John Oostrom, Lucie Pepin, Svend Robinson, Gordon Towers.
Witnesses: From the Alliance for the Safety of Prostitutes:
Marie Arrington, Co-founder and volunteer; and Ja"mie
Crawford, Volunteer. From the Canadian Organizationfor the
Rights of Prostitutes: Peggy Miller, Founder; Cathy and Julie,
Members.
In attendance: From the Research Branch of the Library of
Parliament: Donald Macdonald, Research Officer.
Temoins: De "Alliance for the Safety of Prostitutes.. : Marie
Arrington, co-fondatrice et b6nevole; Jamie Crawford,
b6nevole. De la "Canadian Organization for the Rights of
Prostitutes .. : Peggy Miller, fondatrice; Cathy et Julie,
membres.
The Committee resumed consideration of its Order of
Reference dated Monday, September 9, 1985 relating to Bill
C·49, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (prostitution). (See
Minutes of Proceedings and Evidence, Thursday, September
19,1985, Issue No. I.)
The Committee resumed consideration of Clause 1.
Autres deputes presents: George Baker, Lise Bourgault,
Pauline Browes, Mary Collins, Alex Kindy, Don Ravis, Carlo
Rossi, Brian Tobin.
Aussi present: Du Service de recherche de fa Bibliotheque
du parfement: Donald Macdonald, attache de recherche.
Le Comite reprend l'etude de son ordre de renvoi du lundi 9
septembre 1985 relatif au projet de loi C-49, Loi modifiant Ie
Code criminel (prostitution). (Voir Proces-verbaux et
temoignages du jeudi 19 septembre 1985,fascicule It' I.)
/"
Le Comite reprend I'etude de l'article 1.
Jamie Crawford and Marie Arrington of the Association for
the Safety of Prostitutes', and Peggy Miller, Cathy and Julie of
the Association for the Rights of Prostitutes each made an
opening statement and answered questions.
On motion of John Nunziata, it was agreed,-That the
Committee reconvene immediately following the bells.
Jamie Crawford et Marie Arrington, de roAssociation for
the Safety of Prostitutes», et Peggy Miller, Cathy et Julie, de
I'«Associationfor the Rights of Prostitutes», font chacune une
declaration preliminaire et repondent aux questions.
Sur motion de John Nunziata, iI est convenu,-Que Ie
Comite se reunisse de nouveau aussitot apres les sonneries.
At 4:35 o'clock p.m., the meeting was suspended.
A 16 h 35, Ie Comite interrompt les travaux.
At 5:30 o'clock p.m., the meeting resumed.
A 17 h 30, Ie Comite reprend les travaux.
Questioning of the witnesses resumed.
L'interrogatoire des temoins reprend.
At 7:34 o'clock p.m., the Committee adjourned to the call of
the Chair.
A 19 h 34, Ie Comite s'ajourne jusqu'a nouvelle convocation
du president.
Le greffier du Comite
Franyois Pregent
Clerk of the Committee
308
2:4
Bill C-49
EVIDENCE
TEMOIGNAGES
(Recorded by Electronic Apparatus)
(Enregistrement electronique)
[Texte]
[Traduction]
Tuesday, October 22, 1985
Le mardi 22 octobre 1985
22-10-1985
• 1530
The Chairman: I call the meeting to order.
Le president: J'ouvre la seance.
The first thing we have to settle is this. There are two groups
to hear as witnesses today, the Alliance for the Safety of
Prostitutes and the Canadian Organization for the Rights of
Prostitutes, and I would like to put a question to get the sense
of the committee.
Nous avons une question a regler pour commencer. Nous
avons deux groupes de temoins aujourd'hui: I'Alliance pour la
securite des prostituees et I'Organisatin canadienne pour les
droits des prostituees, et j'aimerais votre avis sur quelque
chose.
The principal witness for the Canadian Organization for the
Rights of Prostitutes, Ms Peggy Miller, has two minor
witnesses she would like to call, and they would prefer to
remain anonymous. I would like to get an expression of opinion
from the committee as to whether or not they are willing to
take evidence from anonymous people. I might point out that
there is a precedent in the Indian Affairs committee where,.at
one time, two women thought their safety would be prejudiced
if their names were made public, and they did hear the
witnesses despite the anonymity. I would like to hear from the
committee on this.
Le temoin principal de I'Organisation canadienne pour les
droits des prostituees, Mm. Peggy Miller, aimerait faire
temoigner deux autres personnes qui prCfereraient garder
I'anonymat. J'aimerais savoir ce que vous en pensez et si vous
accepteriez des temoignages anonymes. Je vous signalerais
qu'il y a deja un precedent au Comite des affaires indiennes ou
I'on a accepte que deux femmes, qui craignaient pour leur
securite, temoignent dans I'anonymat. J'aimerais savoir ce que
vous en pensez.
Mr. Nunziata: Mr. Chairman, we in Her Majesty's loyal
opposition recognize the problems that might be associated
with the publication of the names, and we have no difficulty
whatsoever in having the witnesses remain anonymous.
M. Nunziata: Monsieur Ie president, du cote de l'opposition
loyale de Sa Majeste nous comprenons que la publication du
nom des temoins peut entrainer des problemes, et nous n'avons
aucune objection a ce que les temoins demeurent dans
I'anonymat.
The Chairman: Mr. Robinson.
Le president: Monsieur Robinson.
Mr. Robinson: Mr. Chairman, if it is the choice of the
witnesses to remain anonymous, certainly I think we should
respect that choice.
.
M. Robinson: Monsieur Ie president, si les temoins tiennent
a I'anonymat, je pense que nous devons respecter leur desir.
Mr. Nicholson: We in Her Majesty's government have no
problem with that either, Mr. Chairman.
M. Nicholson: Nous, les deputes du gouvernement de Sa
Majeste, nous n'avons pas d'objection non plus, monsieur Ie
president.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. Ms Mi11er, if your
two confreres are ready, then ...
Le president: Merci beaucoup. Madame Miller, si vos deux
colleges sont pretes, nous ...
Ms Peggy Miller (Founder, Canadian Organization for the
Rights of Prostitutes): I wi11 go and get them now. They are
close at hand.
Mme Peggy Miller (fonda trice, Organisation canadienne
pour les droits des prostituees): Je vais aller les chercher. Elles
ne sont pas loin.
The Chairman: Fine, thank you. I will talk to the rest of the
committee while you are away.
Le president: Tres bien, merci. Je vais m'entretenir avec Ie
Comite pendant que vous etes partie.
There wi11 be two or three matters for which I might
interrupt proceedings this afternoon. If we happen to get a
quorum, there are two or three administrative matters that
need to be settled. Otherwise, we will start with the witnesses
as quickly as we can. I would like to caution you that I
understand from the Whips that at 4.45 p.m. there is likely to
be a 15-minute bell for a vote at 5 p.m.
II se peut que j'interrompe la seance cet apres-midi pour
discuter de deux ou trois questions. Si jamais il y avait
quorum, il y aurait deux ou trois questions administratives a
regler. Autrement, nous procederons des que possible avec les
temoins. Je vous signalerais que les whips m'ont fait savoir
qu'il est possible que la sonnerie de 15 minutes se fasse
entendre Ii 16h45 en vue d'un vote a 17 heures.
Ms Mi11er, I would like you to read or give your statement
to start things off. Please go ahead.
Madame Miller, j'aimerais que vous nous presentiez votre
declaration pour ouvrir Ie bal. Allez-y, je vous en prie.
Ms Miller: I would prefer actually to follow ASP. We both
have ten minutes. I need a few more minutes, please; ASP is
ready.
Mme Miller. Je prCfererais passer apres I'ASP. Nous avons
10 minutes chacune. J'aurais besoin de quelques minutes de
plus pour me preparer, I'ASP est prete.
309
22· 10-1985
Nous
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II
Projet de loi C-49
I Texte)
[Traduction]
• 1535
The Chairman: Do you wish to have the Alliance for the
Safety of Prostitutes lead off, then?
Le president: Vous voulez que I'Alliance pour la securite des
prostituees commence?
Ms Miller: Yes.
Mme Miller: Qui.
The Chairman: Are you prepared? Very well, go ahead.
Le president: Vous etes pretes? Tres bien, aIlez-y.
Ms Jamie Crawford (Volunteer, Alliance for the Safety of
Prostitutes): The AllianceJor the Safety of Prostitutes is a
national organization with sister groups in Vancouver,
Calgary, Winnipeg, and Montreal. We are a network of
women-some of whom are prostitutes, some have been
prostitutes, some have grown up on the street, and some are
women who have a consciousness of the vulnerability to
violence that prostitutes face daily. We have joined together
because we have in common the desire to make the streets a
safer place for all women. We see P!~s.!!!~~C?_.~omel1._.~_s.. ~~ng
the least powerful and..the-mosHulm:r-able.-hy..Jh~ fact that
their profession leaves them wide open to all forms of viole rice.
Mme Jamie Crawford (benevole, Alliance pour la securite
des prostituees): L'Alliance pour la securite des prostituees est
une organisation nationale avec des chapitres a Vancouver,
Calgary, Winnipeg et Montreal. Nous sommes un reseau de
femmes, certaines d'entre nous sont des prostituees, d'autres
I'ont ete, d'autres ont grandi dans la rue, et certaines sont des
femmes qui savent aquel point les prostituees sont vulnerables
a la violence qU'elles rencontrent chaque jour. C'est un desir
commun de rendre les rues plus sfires pour toutes les femmes
qui nous a regroupees. Les femmes prostituees sont d'autant
plus depourvues de violence, d'autant plus vulnerables que leur
profession les expose a toutes sortes de v.iolence.
We are c~~mit-;-ed.number ~ne~singu;emythsltnd
hypocrisies surrounding prostitution by way of educating the
public about prostitutes and their lives, through speaking at
schools, colleges, panels, community groups, and publishing
our findings. Number two, to set up a system of safety for all
women, especially prostitutes on the streets; to go out onto the
streets to make contact with women and get their input about
the issues relevant to their lives. Number three, to address all
the underlying issues concerned with prostitution-poverty,
the economic exploitation of women, sexual assault, battering,
incest, child abuse, and assault by tricks, police and citizens
Number 4, to fight for the abolishment of all laws ~ainstl
prostitutes; provide counselling for prostitutes who are inces;J
survivors or have been sexually assaulted, wfietlier-lhrough
work or not; to prOVide courtaavoca~ as we!t-as··-custQdy
disp.UieS or MHR tribunals. Number five, to work~1ti1-youth
in an attempt to get them back within the social service system
in order to find an alternative to street life. Number six, to
work with women to find alternatives should they want to quit
the life; to pressure the civic, provincial and federal govern-]'
ments to find viable alternatives to prostitution and for the
prostitutes.
Nous nous sommes engagees, pour commencer, a reveler les
mythes et les hypOcrisies qui entourent la prostitution en
oouquant Ie public, en lui faisant connaitre les prostituees, leur
existence, et pour y parvenir, nous prenons la parole dans des
ecoles, des colleges, des groupes communautaires, et nous
pUblions nos conclusions. Deuxiemement, nous voulons creer
un reseau de securite pour toutes les femmes, et en particulier
Ies prostituees dans les rues. Pour ce faire, nous allons dans les
rues prendre contact avec les· femmes, leur demander quels
sont les problemes qu'elles rencontrent. Troisiemement, nous
voulons nous pencheJ sur toutes les questions qui entourent la
prostitution, pauvrete,exploitation economique des femmes,
agression sexuelle, coups, inceste, agression contre les enfants,
agression par les clients, la police et les citoyens. Quatriemement, nous luttons pour I'abolition de toutes les lois contre les
prostituees, nous offrons un service de conseils aux prostituees
qui ont eu des experiences d'inceste ou qui ont He victimes
d'agression sexuelle, pendant leur travail ou pas. Nous mettons
a leur disposition des services juridiques lorsqu'elles passent
devant les tribunaux ou qu'elles ont des problemes de garde
d'enfants. Cinquiemement, nous travaillons avec les jeunes
pour essayer de les reintegrer au systeme social, pour essayer
de les sortir de la rue. Sixiemement, nous travaillons avec les
femmes pour trouver avec elles d'autres solutions si elles
decident de changer de vie; nous exer90ns des press ions sur les
gouvernements muni(lipaux, provinciaux et federal pour
essayer de trouver des solutions aux problemes de prostitution
et aux problemes des prostituees.
Ms Marie Arrington (Co-founder and Volunteer, Alliance
for the Safety of Prostitutes): We have submitted a brief, so
we will just make a short statement.
Mme Marie Arrington (co-fondatrice et benevole, Alliance
pour la securite des prostituees): Nous avons soumis un
memoire, nous nous contenterons donc defaire une courte
declaration.
We, the Alliance for the Safety of Prostitutes, are here
today to speak not only against the passing of Bill C·49, but to
talk about what the effects will be to women once the bill is
passed. We do not expect to change the mind of this committee, or indeed the House of Commons, but we want to make
you aware of our opposition and forecast the violence and hard
times faced by street prostitutes because of the bill.
A I'Alliance pour la securite des prostituees, nous intervenons non seulement contre I'adoption du Bill C-49, mais nous
sommes egalement venues parler des effets futurs de cette
legislation sur les femmes. Nous ne nous attendons pas a faire
changer ce Comite d'opinion, ni meme la Chambre des
communes, mais nous voulons vous dire que nous sommes
opposees a ce bill et nous prevoyons que les prostituees se
lenne
Elles
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2:5
310
2:6
,--------_._,_._.. _---
Bill C-49
22-10-1985
[Translation]
heurteront a une violence accrue et a beaucoup de difficultes a
cause de ce bill.
[Text]
It has been,state<iroany-.lime.s,iVb.elLjJ~5)XpJ;ill~!!Jjh& ~ll
prostitutes-h-ave-pimpnfl1lra-re-forcedbythese-men.to.work for
them; .thatthe-women-are,-wofking--tosupportdrughabits, or
··'both:-"W'e-ar-e-t~ld-,-.that-_..pI:O.sli1!!liQ!L.._attracts . unsavou!y
characters and thecriminaL<;lem.enJ~WiJhJbe_,piii$l~~rBilI
"C-49.- ,t-his--wiU-truly--he__,aJ:ealitY_~msti~ will be driven
unQergrQII.lJQ, .. Ihe"Qnly_ way Jhese . . womenwiU~_ !lJ;l~_,~cr~ork
will be- throughmen'wh~will,be.able.togel around the law. It
iS~i!id WheXlLtherc,is wostitution ther.e isorg:;nlzedcrim~.'So
far \n Canada this IS Dot true, butwell,re sure it will be so as it
is in other countries where prostitution is'outiawed.
On a souvent dit, lorsque cela etait pratique, que toutes les
prostituees ont des souteneurs, et que ce sont eux qui les
forcent a travailler. Que les femmes travaillent parce qu'elles
ont un probleme de drogue, ou pour les deux raisons. On nous
dit que la prostitution attire les Clements les plus douteux, les
temperaments de crimi nels. Or, lorsque Ie Bill C-49 aura ete
adopte, cela deviendra vrai. Les prostituees seront forrees dans
la c1andestinite, et, pour eUes, Ie seul moyen de travailler sera
de passer par les hommes qui reussiront a tourner la loi. On dit
que III ou il y a prostitution, il y a crime organise. Jusqu'a
present, au Canada, cela n'etait pas vrai, rna is nous sommes
certaines qu~ cela deviendra aussi vrai que dans d'autres pays
ou la prostitution est ilIegale.
In Seattle, Washington, only a three-hour drive from
Vancouver, over 80 women are missing, and over 40 have been
accounted for as murdered by the Green River killer. The first
body was found three years ago this past July. All the women
worked in the sex industry, and most were under the age of 20,
and all were women of colour. Prostitution is outlawed in
A Seattle, dans I'Etat de Washington, a trois heures
seulement de Vancouver, plus de 80 femmes ont disparu et
plus de 40 ont ete assassinees par Ie tueur de Green River. Le
premier corps a ete decouvert iI y a eu trois ans en juillet.
Toutes les femmes travaillaient dans I'industrie de la venalite,
et la plupart avaient moins de 20 ans, toutes etaient des
femmes decouleur. Dans I'Etat de Washington, la prostitution
est illegale.
In Los Angeles, California, 10 prostitute women were
murdered al!.i[lQ~tl,l~iL21!1~tilated in the past few months.
All those' women were black' 'irid' were "srreet-prostitutes,
Prostitiitioolsalw--outlawediriTalif6iriia. We seeaoefinlte
correlaiiori'bet:w'eenihe'murders and the outlaw status of these
"-, womefi'iniveif.. "
A Los Angeles, en Californie, il y a 10 prostituees qui ont
ete assassinees, torturees et mutilees depuis quelques mois.
Toutes ces femmes etaient noires, toutes etaient des prostituees. La prostitution est egalement ilIegale en Californie.
Nous voyons une correlation tres nette entre les crimes et
l'iIIegalite dans la<J)lelle ces femmes vivent.
Washington State.
-___________________---:7
• 1540
In Vancouver, with the passing of the injunction)n the west
end in 1984, we predicted an increase of violence towards
prostitutes. One young woman has been murdered and several
have gone missing. When action has been increased by
residents, and police harassment increased, so has the violence
by men towards street prostitutes.
A Vancouver, apres I'injon<;tion du Quartier Ouest en 1984,
nous avions prevu une augmentation' de la violence envers les
prostituees. Une jeune femme a ete assassinee et plusieurs ont
disparu. Lorsque les resident ont pris des mesures et lorsque la
police a multiplie ses interventions, la violence des hommes
envers les prostituees a augmente egalement.
Street prostitution is estimated to beapyroximately 20% of
all prostitutionin'Canadii-:Witii 'ihe pass1ng ofthebTlf, women
will a~~!IljJ,Lto-,go,indool'S--alld--int{')-a--ma1'ket--that· is already
overloade!I ...W.e--suspect-tbe"Violence-wiU aisoincreasew1th the
prostitute wgmen,working"indoors';'Womenwill be unable to
report assaults and s,exual assaults to police for fear of being
charged WltnsoIlCTiing~---- '. -',. -", ..
La prostitution dans les rues represente environ 20 p. 100 de
toute la prostitution au Canada. Avec I'adoption du bill, les
femmes essaieront de rentrer a I'interieur, et c'est un marehe
qui est deja sature. Lorsque les prostituees travailleront a
I'interieur, la violence augmentera egalement. Les femmes
seront dans I'impossibilite de reveler II la police qu'elles ont ete
victimes d'agression et d'agression sexuelle de crainte de se
faire arreter pour sollicitation.
Many women who are street prostitutes are also very young
and will not be able to go indoors. These young women will be
the most vulnerable t() the forced-sex trade. These are the
young who will disappear never to be heard from again, but
they will be out of sight and not a public nuisance.
Beaucoup de femmes qui sont des prostituees des rues sont
egalement tres jeunes et ne pourront pas exercer a I'interieur.
Ces jeunes femmes seront les plus vulnerables a la prostitution
forcee. Ce sont elles qui disparaitront et dont on n'entendra
plus jamais parler; rna is comme on ne les veTTa pas, e\les ne
derangeront pas Ie public.
,With-,.t-he~pr~~-m~d!!!inal Code, no,
Les modifications qu'on envisage d'apporter au Code
mention. has been. made of alternatives. The suggested $500'1' criminel ne parlent pas d'autres solutions possibles. L'amende
fiiie-wJjji.tj~~n.WQm-:en=wiICgQ1Q--:pri~@;Th1!"wornen'w,hO-,w-ilI de 500$ dont il est question forcera les femmes a aller en
beiibje'to..pay.the,finewill.dosQJ1):\V~rking--lorigerhoUTSand prison. Les femmes qui pourront payer I'amende Ie feront
wiIlnot .bea.ble_to,.beas..carefuLabo1,!~goiii~ oilt with tricks. apres avoir travaille plus longtemps, ce qui les empechera de
311
Projet de loi C-49
2:7
[Traduction]
uri
\1;"""'11 lIot able to pay _!~~J}!1~~_\Vm~ve the~~~n choisir leurs clients avec autant de discernement. Les femmes
qui ne pourront pas payer I'amende verront leurs enfants
~h"IIII"d by the sodiir service agencies, and regaining
confies aux services sociaux et il leur sera pratiquement
y will be next to impossible, as it already is next to
impossible de les recuperer; d'ailleurs, c'est deja pratiquement
hlf' Family units will be destroyed and women and
impossible. Les families seront detruites et les femmes et leurs
~hildr(ln will go hungry. There are many women working
tlllllc~ who do not collect welfiue. This will force more- enfants auront faim. II y a beaucoup de femmes qui se
prostituent et qui ne touchent pas Ie Bien-etre. Cela forcera un
Itl depend on the meagre hand-outs by the governments
I, province. The jails will be full and it will. create a plus grand nombre de femmes a accepter les maigres aumones
des gouvernements provinciaux. Les prisons seront pleines et
11M door within the prison system.
les portes des prisons deviendront des portes tournantes.
IiHlilll'ity of the women in this country are native women
lIH' in prison, and we can see an increase because the
y IIr Ihe women working as street prostitutes are women
t In this country.
II y a dans ce pays beaucoup de femmes autochtones qui
sont en prison et il y en aura encore plus car la majorite des
femmes qui se prostituent dans la rue sont des femmes de
couleur.
II not make- more_-sens.~L!9 spend the money to
women _and_ C!~!~_j<?E~._t~~lu()J~~tl1e amount
k\1cping \Y()!ll~n_J()_<?1<~A_!!p_ll!!~'p'ayi!1g foster parents
I!hlldren, not to say anything about court costs? Ihe(
IhlK b. ill. will create for -w.om.·.en.' -.an. dtli-Cii-. chlldren will
rm effects on this society and will succeed not in
. wOlneri-:rwIn-w&lCmg::as~pi:9_s.@iJesoiitin puriishing a I
I of this society which is already deprive~. eco~omicaI1Y;J
Ne vaudrait-il pas beaucoup mieux depenser I'argent pour
eduquer les femmes, creer des emplois, au lieu d'augmenter les
fonds qui servent ales en fermer, a payer des foyers nourriciers
pour leurs enfants, pour ne pas parler des frais juridiques? Ce
bill imposera aux femmes et a leurs enfants des difficultes qui
auront des effets a long terme sur cette societe et qui n'empecheront pas les femmes de se prostituer rna is qui puniront un
secteur de cette societe, deja economiquement atteinte.
HIll this committee to consider seriously the conse-
Nous prions ce Comite de reconsiderer sefieusement les
consequences de ce bill et ses effets sur la vie des femmes.
Nous prions Ie Comite de rejeter Ie bill et de Ie remplacer par
des solutions autres que la prostitution pour les femmes qui
veulent quitter ce genre de vie, creer des maisons de transition
pour les jeunes qui vivent dans la rue et envisager serieusement
d'appliquer les recommandations du Comite Fraser.
nf the bill and its effects on women's lives. We urge
to reject the bill and instead propose ways and
III cronte alternatives to prostitution for women who
lluit. create safe houses for the youth on the street and
consider the implementation of the Fraser committee
Merci.
~:
Le president: Madame Miller, vous etes prete?
Ms Miller, are you ready now?
I just want to say that our delegation is totally in
. whh the need for alternatives for prostitutes, if they
il8 Marie has outlined. I really want to go directly to
• however. I am not here as a sociologist or a psy(If II lawyer or a theologist; I am here as a prostitute
nds the reality of the enforcement in a way I do
the others do since I have suffered from the hands
rnrlll!lnlllnt personally.
Mme Miller: Je veux seulement dire que notre delegation est
totalement d'accord et reconna!t comme Marie I'a explique,
qu'il faut surtout trouver d'autres solutions pour les prostituees
qui veulent changer. Cela dit, je vais parler tout de suite du
Bill C-49. Je ne suis ici, ni a titre de sociologue, ni a titre de
psychologue ou d'avocate ou de theologue, je suis ici en rna
qualite de prostituee et je comprends la realite de I'application
de cette loi mieux que quiconque car j'ai personnellement
souffert de ce genre de choses.
I Ally all of that, I just want to say that I had at home
Mais auparavant, je tiens a vous dire que j'ai a la maison un
autre bill. Celui-ci me semble un peu different. Le bill que
j'avais avait quatre points. Un qui portait sur la prostitution
juvenile, un autre sur les lieux publics. II y avait c) et dans la
partie a), on prevoyait que les modifications legislatives
porteraient egalement sur Ie client.
ion another bill. This seems to look a little
The bill I had had four items. One dealt with
I,tostltution; the other one dealt with public place; the
10 Was (c); and the (a) part of it was that any legislaflIIlK hlld a(so equally to affect the customer.
• 1545
of my concerns is making sure you are affecting
Je pense egalement que les clients doivent etre penalises au
equally, because I do not think we want to go back meme titre que les prostituees car il ne faudrait pas revenir a la
tho women were being discriminated against and they discrimination anterieure a l'encontre des femmes a I'epoque
IJig the prisons and the police and the customers were ou les prostituees remplissaient les prisons, ou la police lava it
IIWI\Y complete with their respectability and so forth. les mains des clients qui conservaient toute leur respectabilite,
it I~ It crime, there are two parties to the crime, and it etc. Si la prostitution est vraiment un crime, alors il y a deux
be executed properly, which means equally-the ,parties a Ie commettre et il faut les sanctionner pareillement.
of that.
_-~
/-----~"-
\
"
Bill C-49
'-- '-...2:8)
.
312
22-10-1985
"
<;:-<
\
[Text]
,.~<,
The only prob~\:illL1IH!LiUhe I!.olice are going to have
the power to decide when they are goi~-to-bus~LwilLtell-YQu,
as a prostitute who haShiiacustomers thePolice were watching on wittr,itl'S1i1CeTliilleooys'cltib. What the police do is
theywalLuniKih~-:custome;,s-saI'dy-aw~ayanQ then they go in
[Translation]
Le seul probleme avec cela c'est que la police va pouvoir
decider elle-meme du moment Oil e\le fait une rafle. Je peux
vous Ie dire, j'ai vu faire la police et cela se passe comme dans
un club de gan,.ons. Ce que fait la police c'est qu'elle attend
jusqu'a ce que Ie client soit parti avant de vous arreter.
andaU!<ll.Y.ou,~
The other thing they love to do-and this is a reality of
enforcement-is they use the fact that the customer can be
charged to coerce him into saying that yes, you did in fact
harass him, or you did whatever they need to get their arrest or
to get their conviction. I have also experienced that. One of my
arrests was a customer saying, no, she did not solicit me. They
told him to get the hell out of there, and then announced to
me, when I said, well, it does not look as if you have any
grounds for arrest, the man has made his statement-I am
sorry, you heard him wrong; you must be losing your mind,
because I heard him say you did. He walked away free, based
on their testimony.
Une autre chose que la police affectionne de faire---et cela
est la realite-c'est qu'e\le utilise I'inculpation eventuelle du
client comme moyen de chantage pour Ie contraindre a
temoigner que, oui, la prostituee I'a effectivement harcele ou
quoi que ce soit d'autre qui permettra d'obtenir une condamnation. J'ai vu des cas comme cela moi-meme. A I'occasion
d'une autre arrestation, j'ai entendu Ie client repondre: .Non,
e\le ne m'a pas sollicite.. La police lui a dit de ficher Ie camp et
lorsque j'ai proteste contre mon arrestation disant qu'il n'y
avait aucun motif, vu Ie temoignage de I'homme, on m'a
repondu que j'avais mal entendu, que je devais perdre la tete
car il avait repondu oui. Le client s'en est tire comme cela,
grace a la police.
The fact is, every case I have ever had, I have appealed. I
think it is a very sad statement that I always lose in the lower
court, but when I go to the higher court ... in fact, on one of
my appeals I did not even have to appear; it was thrown out
without any question. The prosecutor announced there was no
case .
J'ai toujours interjete appel contre chacune de mes con damnations. C'est triste a dire, mais je perds toujours mon proces
en premiere instance, alors qu'en cour superieure ... D'ailleurs, je n'ai meme pas ete obligee de comparaitre pour I'un de
mes appels, Ie procureur ayant declare qu'il n'y avait pas lieu
de poursuivre.
t<.ihave the power to exercise: the way it is aimed at women. The
A, - ):point of this bill is to keep women in the hands of the state; to
\/~eep, in particular, women's sexuality in the hands of the state.
]5:This is totally unacceptable in 1985. This bill, as far as I am
concerned, if I were going to give a little picture of it, is
George Wallace standing at the sc~ool steps, refusing to let
black people in because it is immoral. This is all this bill
signifies. It has no more basis in democracy, in the foundation
of equality, in anything we hold dear in this country, than
George Wallace's stand on those steps.
C'est I'un des problemes du pouvoir de discrimination qui est
donne a la police: elle s'exerce toujours a I'encontre des
femmes. Le but de ce projet de loi est de mettre les femmes a
la merci de I'etat, de placer leur sexualite aux mains de l'etat.
Cela est tout a fait/inacceptable a notre epoque. L'image
qu'evoque en moi ce projet de loi est celle de George Wallace
debout sur les marches d'une ecole, refusant I'entree aux noirs
parce que ce serait immoral. Ce projet de loi n'est pas autre
chose, il n'a pas plus de fondement dans la democratie, dans
I'egalite et dans tous les principes que nous cherissons dans ce
pays, que I'attitude de George Wallace devant cette ecole.
1
I
-~~'/ThiS is one of the problems of the discrimination the police
The fact that you are even willing to try to rephrase
something that has already been found in intent to be unconstitutional is, as far as I am concerned, just unbelievable. And
you do it with no shame whatsoever. What makes me very
angry as a prostitute is that as I look around you, I know what
percentage of men are customers, so I know a percentage of
men voting on this bill have been customers; and it is even
more reprehensible. This is turkey. We are all in this. Let us
stop the pretence. Why are we playing these games?
Le fait que vous cherchiez a formuler differemment que\que
chose qui, sur Ie principe, a deja ete jugee anticonstitutionnelle
me parait tout a fait incroyable. Et pourtant vous Ie faites,
sans honte aucune. Ce qui me met tellement en colere c'est
que, en tant que prostituee, je n'ai qu'a regarder autour de moi
pour voir combien d'entre vous etes des clients, je sais quel
pourcentage d'hommes qui vont adopter ce projet de loi ont
deja paye des prostituees; cela Ie rend encore plus condamnable. Tout cela est de I'hypocrisie, tout Ie monde est coupable,
arretons de faire semblant. Pourquoi jouer ace petit jeu?
I will tell you why we are playing these games. Because you
rare politicians. Because you are interested in appeasing the
- outraged crowd or our neighbourhoods so you can get your
next vote. I am not unsympathetic to that. There are cases
when women on the street are obnoxious. They are insulting.
. They do grab and so forth-things that in any other business
:...~would all consider unacceptable. But to try to brace this
whole situation on the basis of that is beyond all reason, as far
as I am concerned.
Je va is vous dire pourquoi vous jouez a ce petit jeu: c'est
parce que vous etes des politiciens. Tout ce qui vous interesse
c'est donner satisfaction a ceux qui protestent, aux residents
des quartiers, afin qu'ils votent pour vous la prochaine fois. Je
peux Ie comprendre. II y a vraiment des femmes sur Ie trottoir
qui se conduisent mal, qui insultent les gens, qui les attrapent
par Ie cou, etc, toutes choses qui seraient jugees inacceptables
de n'importe quel autre secteur d'affaires. Mais c'est vraiment
depasser toutes les bomes du raisonnable, a mon avis, que
d'aller aussi loin pour regler un si petit probleme.
\
I.
313
22-10-1985
Projet de loi C-49
[Traduction]
[Texte]
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What I want to propose we work on today is understanding,
first, that we are talking about a legal business. We are also
talking about gentlemen who have their reputations on the
line. There was a very tragic case of the man who had to resign
because he was seen talking to strippers. That is a tragedy. The
man was not judged on his merit in his job; the man was
judged on something else. I hate to see anything like that
happen to anybody.
Ce qu'il faudrait commencer par comprendre, tout d'abord,
c'est qu'il s'agit hl. d'une activite legale. II faut savoir ega lement que vous mettez en jeu la reputation d'hommes honorables. II y a eu l'affaire tragique du ministre qui a du demissionner parce qu'on I'a vu parler a des strip-teaseuses. C'est une
tragedie. On n'a pas juge que cet hom me sur son merite, sur
son travail, mais sur tout autre chose. Je deteste voir les gens
traites de cette fa90n.
Let us look at the alternatives to that. Is there a way of
appeasing the crowd and respecting their rights and their
needs in a neighbourhood; also, respecting the rights of a legal
profession trying to operate, trying to work in safety, trying to
work co-operatively with its community. I say there are
alternatives.
Voyons voir quelles solutions existent. Y a-t-il moyen de
pia ire a la majorite, de respecter leurs droits et leurs besoins
dans un quartier et de respecter en meme temps les droits des
membres d'une profession legale qui ne demandent qu'a
travailler en securite et en accord avec tout Ie monde. Je dis
qu'il y a des solutions de rechange.
Reactionary bills and George Wallace will not work. We are
now gaining as a movement. I want this to be made clear to
everyone of you politicians. We are not weakening; we are
strengthening. We are going to follow this bill right up until
the next election. There is not one of you who does not know
that, when it is challenged in the courts, this bill is not going to
hold up. It was not held up in its intent in the soliciting ruling.
It is not going to hold up again. And I will tell you when it is
going to land on your lap; it is going to land on your lap at
election time. We all are tired of being used for expediency
and for your political careers. We want answers. We want no
more waste.
Les lois reactionnaires et les attitudes a la George Wallace
ne reussiront pas. Notre mouvement prend de I'ampleur. Je
tiens a Ie faire savoir a chacun de vous, les politiciens. Nous ne
sommes pas en train de nous affaiblir, nous sommes en train de
nous renforcer et nous allons suivre ce projet de loi jusqu'a la
prochaine election. II n'y a pas un seul d'entre vous qui peut
ignorer que lorsque cette loi sera contestee devant les tribunaux, e1le sera jugee anticonstitutionnelle. Son intention I'a
deja ete, dans Ie jugement sur la sollicitation. Ce sera pareil la
prochaine fois. Et lorsque vous l'aurez de nouveau sur les bras,
ce sera au moment des elections. Nous en avons tous assez que
vous vous, serviez de nous pour vous faire mousser et faire
avancer votre carriere. Nous voulons des solutions, nous en
avons assez de ce gas pillage.
I am on the side of the citizen who asks, Why are you using
my tax dollars to apply band-aid solutions to make y\>u look
good when they will not even work? I will be the first to come
forward when it is struck down to let people know that every
one of you knew it would be in the first place and were
absolutely negligent in your responsibility to them. Now there
are alternatives in respecting both sides. Let us talk about
them.
Je me range du cote des citoyens qui demandent pourquoi
vous vous servez de nos impots pour appliquer des empliitres
sur une jambe de bois alors que vous savez tres bien que ce
n'est pas une solution. Je serais la premiere a cia mer, lorsque
les tribunaux abrogeront cette loi que vous sa~iez parfaitement
bien, chacun d'entre vous, qu'il en sera it ainsi et que vous
abdiquez vos responsabilites. Nous savons qu'il existe des
solutions capables de satisfaire tout Ie monde, alors parlons-en.
The Chairman: Thank you. Do your two colleagues wish to
say anything at this time? We will refer to them as Witness 1
on the immediate left, and Witness 2 for the second from the
left.
Le president: Je vous remercie. Est-ce que vos deux
collegues souhaitent prendre la parole maintenant? Nous
appellerons celie avotre gauche temoin 1 et celle acote temoin
Cathy (Witness No.2): I am Cathy. I am from Toronto. I
have escort services. The service is among the oldest surviving
escort services in Toronto. I have had it for seven years. My
concerns here are particularly about the escort services and
what this bill is going to do to them, let us say, a year down the
road.
Cathy (TCmoin n° 2): Je suis Cathy. Je viens de Toronto. Je
possooe un service d'escorte, parmi les plus anciens de Toronto
puisqu'il existe depuis sept ans. Mon soud principalement est
ce qui va resulter pour e1les de ce projet de loi, disons d'ici un
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Ms Miller: When the police have their power.
2.
Mme Miller: Une fois que la police aura les pouvoirs qu'elle
veut.
Cathy: It is easy enough to clean up the streets, to close
Cathy:, II est relativement facile de nettoyer les rues, de
them down, to send those girls off the street. So when they debarrasser les rues des filles. Mais ou vont-elles aller?
leave the street, where do they go? Some might leave the , Certaines vont arreter de se prostituer. Manifestement,
business. Obviously, some are going to go to jail. Some of them certaines vont se retrouver en prison. D'autres encore vont
will move into the bars. Of course the bar girls are going to be s'installer dans les bars. Les filles des bars vont egalement etre
persecuted, or prosecuted, as well, I would imagine.
persecutees ou poursuivies, eUes aussi.
314
Bill C-49
2: 10
22- 10-1985
[Text)
[Translation]
Escort services are already completely over-saturated. We
are working under extremely dangerous conditions. I repeat:
extremely dangerous conditions. I will sit here and I will
predict that, if this bill goes through, give us a year and we are
going to have deaths in our business. We are over-saturated.
We cannot handle the number of people we have, given the
circumstances we are working under.
Les services d'escortes sont deja completement sursatures.
Nous travaillons dans des conditions extremement dangereuses, extremement dangereuses. Je peux vous predire, que, si ce
projet de loi est adopte, dans moins d'un an vous verrez des
assassinats. Nous sommes sursatures. II y a trop de services
differents, vu les circonstances dans lesquelles nous travaillons.
As an example, we have no opportunity to organize. Since
we cannot organize, we cannot take care of ourselves. We have
no safety network. In the old days, if a bad call happened,
there would be six or seven of us and we could get on the
phone. We could help each other out. Time is of the essenceof the essence-when someone violent is out there who has
abused a girl. She comes back; she reports it. You have,
maybe, IS or 20 minutes to deal with that. 'In the old days we
could. Now we cannot. There are, I think, 151 ads in the
Toronto yellow pages. We are too big, we are too many, and
we are not permitted to organize enough to give our own selves
~fety. We are working already under extremely dangerous
circumstances. Close the streets. Close the bars. Bring these
\girls into escort and we are going to start dying. There is just
/no other way of looking at it.
Par exemple, nous ne pouvons absolument pas nous organiser. Puisque nous ne pouvons pas nous organiser, nous ne
pouvons pas nous proteger. Nous n'avons aucun reseau de
securite. Dans I'ancien temps, si une fille etait en difficulte,
nous etions six ou sept a sauter sur Ie telephone et I'aider.
Nous pouvions nous entraider. Chaque minute compte lorsque
vous avez un client violent qui s'en prend a une fille. Quand
elle revient, qU'elle raconte ce qui lui est arrive, vous avez peutetre 15 ou 20 minutes pour agir. Auparavant nous Ie pouvions,
maintenant nous ne Ie pouvons plus. Je crois qu'i! y a 151
annonces de services d'escortes dans les pages jaunes de
l'annuaire de Toronto. II y en a trop, nous sommes trop
nombreux, on ne nous laisse pas nous organiser suffisamment
pour assurer notre propre securite. Nous tr~vaillons deja dans
des circonstances extremement dangereuses. Fermezles rues,
fermez les bars, poussez toutes ces filles a ouvrir des services
d'escortes et vous verrez des morts chez-nous. C'est ineluctable.
I
L--
• 1555
The Chairman: Thank you. Witness number one, would you
wish to say anything?
Le president: Je vous remercie. Temoin no un, souhaitezvous dire quelque chose?
Julie (Witness No.1): Yes, my name is Julie and I work out
of my home. I work through "companions" ads in several
newspapers. I have never been arrested. I do not want to be. I
am a mother. I have never had any complaints from my
neighbours. If this bill is passed, I will not be allowed to
advertise discreetly and I will be put on the street. I do not
want to be put on the street; I do not want an arrest and a
conviction in case I choose to leave this business.
Julie (temoin ~. I): ~ui, mon nom est Julie, et je travaille a
domicile. Je passe des annonces dans Ies journaux pour trouver
des .compagnons•. Je n'ai jamais ete arretee et je ne 'veU'll pas
I'etre. Je suis mere. Jamais aucun de mes voisins ne s'est
plaint. Si ce projet de loi est adopte, je n'aurai plus Ie droit de
passer des annonces discretes et je serai contrainte de travailler
dans la rue. Je ne veux pas aller dans la rue, je ne veux 'pas etre
arretee et avoir un casier judiciaire, car il se pourrait que je
decide d'abandonner la prostitution.
That is all I have to s.ay.
C'est tout ce que j'ai a dire.
The Chairman: Thank you very much. Now, before we go to
the members of the committee, I might say we have enough
people here to make a quorum, but unfortunately several of the
members are not on strength of the committee at this time and
consequently we cannot bring in our administrative motions. It
is just as well because we are going to be short of time today,
and I ...
Le president: Je vous remercie. Maintenant, avant de
donner la parole aux membres du Coniite, nous sommes
suffisamment nombreux pour avoir Ie quorum, malheureusement plusieurs deputes presents ne sont pas membres de plein
droit du Comite; nous ne pouvons donc adopter nos motions
d'ordre administratif. Cela vaut mieux, car nous allons
manquer de temps aujourd'hui etje ...
Ms Miller: I am sorry, I cannot hear you, Mr. Chairman.
Mme Miller: Veuillez m'excuser, je ne peux pas vous
entendre, monsieur Ie president.
The Chairman: I would like to say, Ms Miller, that I hope
the committee was listening carefully when you said you would
go directly to the bill. It is a remark almost without precedent
in committees of the House of Commons.
Le president: Je voulais seulement dire, madame Miller, que
j'espere que Ie Comite ecoutait attentivement lorsque vous
avez dit que vous aborderiez directement Ie projet de loi. C'est
une chose presque sans precedent dans les comites de la
Chambre des communes.
Have the Liberals decided who wishes to speak first?
Les liberaux ont-ils decide qui aurait Ie premier tour?
An hon. member: Yes, Madam Pepin.
Une l'oix: ~ui, madame Pepin.
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22-10-1985
Projet de loi C-49
2: II
[Traduction]
Le president: Vous avez la parole.
(Texte]
The Chairman: Please go ahead.
Mme Pepin: Vous avez mentionne plusieurs choses qui, je
trouve, sont tres importantes. Une d'entre vous a parle du
rapport Fraser et, comme vous Ie savez, Ie projet de loi C-49 ne
tient compte d'aucune recommandation de ce rapport. Vous
avez dit que vous auriez souhaite, en fait, que I'on utilise les
recommandations des rapports Fraser et Badgley. Pouvez-vous
nous dire pourquoi vous prefereriez Ie rapport Fraser contrairement a ce que Ie projet de loi propose actuellement?
Mrs. Pepin: You have mentioned several things which, in
my view, are very important. One of you talked about the
Fraser Report and, as you know, Bill C-49 does not reflect any
of the recommendations it made. You stated you would prefer
us using the recommendations made in the Fraser and Badgley
Reports. Could you tell us why you prefer the Fraser Report to
this bill?
Ms Arrington: Well, we support the Fraser report because it!
would give women a chance to work indoors, out of their own )
apartments, and to conduct their lives as a business and not
under the control of the government or under the control of ')
some man. They could work by themselves or .else, if the city ,
provided a licensing operation, they could do that. It also!
provided ways and means to get children. It also talked about aj
special task force. It also talked about the safety of women and
it also talked in depth about the economics of women and also
the harassment they now face. So we were favourable to the
report.
Mme Pepin: II y en a une parmi vous qui a parle de la
violence existant dans Ie milieu des prostituees. Peut-etre que
pour certains d'entre nous il faudrait que vous soyez capables
de citer un ou deux exemples, parce que je pense que la
majorite des gens qui vous ecoutent n'ont peut-etre jamais eu a
faire face a une situation semblable. lis s'imaginent que la
violence, chez les prostituees, c'est quelque chose qu'on lit dans
les livres mais que ce n'est pas la realite de tous les jours.
Mme Arrington: Nous sommes en faveur du rapport Fraser
parce qu'i! permettrait aux femmes de travailler a I'interieur
dans leur appartement et de gerer leur vie comme une affaire
plutot que d'etre a la merci du gouvernement ou d'un homme.
Elles pourraient travailler de fagon independante, et si la ville
voulait mettre en place un systeme de licence, eUe pourrait Ie
faire. II se penche egalement sur les besoins des enfants, il
proposait la creation d'un groupe de travail special. II parle
egalement de la securite des femmes, de leur situation
economique et du harcelement auquel elles sont soumises.
C'est pourquoi nous l'avons apprecie.
Ms Miller: Actually, I would like to respond, first of all, to
this question on the support of the Fraser committee. I have a
great number of reservations about the Fraser committee
report. I see it as a prelude to legalization. When I read
through it, on the surface it does appear to be that we will have
some control over our business. However, when you start'
reading all of the conditions and the various districts it will go
through, on the one hand it will be on a municipal level and it
will be their decision for this, and then on the other hand that ;
will be provincial. I saw chaos in terms of legally sorting it out. i
I did not see very much in there that said we would be able tOJ
define our needs in the business, that it would be given any real
weight or reality.
Mme Miller: J'aimerais d'abord vous parler de notre
adhesion au rappo.4 Fraser. J'ai beaucoup de chosesa dire ladessus. Je Ie vois comme un prelude a la legalisation. En Ie
lisant, a premiere vue, on a l'impression qu'il nous permettrait
de contrOier notre vie. Mais, si I'on y regarde de plus pres, la
repartition des competences et tout cela, on voit que certains
aspects releveraient de I'autorite municipale et d'autres de
I'autorite provincia Ie. Au plan juridique je n'y vois que chaos.
Je n'y trouve pas grand-chose qui nous permettrait de nous
installer en affaires, de determiner nos besoins sur Ie plan
pratique.
I
Mrs. Pepin: One of you talked about the violence that you
are faced with. Maybe you should give us one or two examples
because the majority of people here have never been in such a
situation. They think that violence against prostitutes is
something you read about in the books, but not that it is a fact
of every day life.
• 1600
Also, I am against legalization. I am terrified at even the
implication of it in the Fraser committee. I will give you one of
the reasons why. I attended the Amsterdam convention. It was
the first international convention of whores. At that convention
we had an opportunity to meet with many women and not as
tourists. When you gentlemen go through and look at the nice
little ghettoized area, you say, this is run smoothly; everybody
is safe from them. They are put away.
Je suis egalement oppose a la legalisation. L'idee irIiplicite
dans Ie rapport du comite Fraser me terri fie, et je vais vous
dire pourquoi. J'ai ete au congres d'Amsterdam, Ie premier
congres international de prostituees. J'y ai rencontre de
nombreuses femmes, et ce n'etait pas des touristes. Lorsque
vous, messieurs, allez faire un petit tour dans les quartiers
reserves, les ghettos de prostituees, vous vous dites que cela
fonctionne tres bien, que les prostituees y sont hors de la vue
du reste du monde.
I had a chance to see it. We went into the area and spoke
with the girls. There were women from Sweden, Switzerland,
Germany, France-there were so many that I cannot remember right now. Although their approach was not totally the
same in all the countries and their restrictions were not all the
J'ai pu me rendre compte sur place. J'ai pu aller voir Ie
quartier reserve et parler aUK filles. II y en avait de Suooe, de
Suisse, d'AUemagne, de France-il y avait tellement de
nationalites que je ne me souviens plus de toutes. Bien que la
legislation et les restrictions ne soient pas les memes dans les
316
2: 12
Bill C-49
22-10-1985
[Text]
same, it was clear that what they had was a prison. They were
put into a particular area and the landlord then had a
monopoly on the rent. These girls had to work themselves to
death just to pay the rent. The amount they were charged for
rent was obscene.
[Translation]
divers pays, il etait manifeste qu'a Hambourg e1les vivent
comme en prison. On les installe quelque part, et Ie propri€:taire a alors Ie monopole du loyer. Les filles doivent travailler
jusqu'a l'epuisement rien que pour payer Ie loyer. Le montant
des loyers qu'on leur fait payer est indecent.
The girls have licences, and at the slightest thing, their
not want fu
'--paY·~ij(rIK~-giikii~..itfJil(fQniY!Qgill.llad(.",mil~~ 'on'their
licence, the customer can say, I will report you. So they are
held 'a:Cransom::J)"'
,- flee'
-Incredible
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amount.of-power,-oyer..thekJi!,;ell~~.,)f theY"were not -in
agree.ment",then,.the,ppli!;!<_A<tQ.thiS_1l9wer. · .. "..." .
Les filles ont des permis et, au moindre pretexte, on Ie leur
enleve. Cela signifie que si un client ne veut pas payer il lui
suffit de dire qu'il va deposer plainte contre la fille, parce
qu'elle a peur d'avoir un rapport a son dossier. La police exerce
un pouvoir incroyable sur les permis et peut les faire sauter
quand elle veut.
The other thing people forget is that once they leave that
particular zone, they are scrutinized the same way that
criminals are. They have no power. There is a slave trade of
young kids going through that area right now. The girls are
terrified to talk because they will lose their licences. They will
lose their right to work. The landlord has the right to refuse a
window or a seat to whomever he pleases. If' he does not like a
girl, she is forced onto the street. They have gone through so
many social programs trying to find a way of dealing with this.
They have now, after first-hand experience with legalization in
many countries, in its many forms, finally reached an understanding that it does not work. They are now ready to move on
to decriminalization. I would hate to see us have to go through
all of those years in transit in order to obtain decriminalization. We now have ample examples that it does not work.
Ce que les gens oublient egalement, c'est que, en dehors de
ce quartier, les filles sont traitees comme des criminels. EI\es
n'ont aucun pouvoir. II ya tout un trafic d'esclaves de jeunes
enfants dans ce quartier. Les filles ont peur de parler, car elles
craignent de perdre leur permis, de perdre Ie droit de travailler. Le proprietaire a Ie droit de refuser la vitrine ou un
fauteuil a qui il veut. S'il n'aime pas une fille, il n'a qu'a la
mettre a la rue. En Europe, on a experimente tant de programmes sociaux pour essayer de trouver une solution. Maintenant
que de nombreux pays ont vu de premiere main Ie resultat des
diverses experiences de legalisation, ils se rendent compte que
cela ne fonctionne pas. lis sont prets a passer maintenant a la
decriminalisation. Je n'aimerais pas que nous nous embarquions nous-memes dans ces annees d'experimentation pour
aboutir au meme point. Nous avons maintenant maints
exemples qui prouvent que cela ne fonctionne pas.
IlcencelSrevOKed~Tliat rrieafiSiracu-sromer-ooes
I will give you an example of violence.
Je vais vous don'}er un exemple de violence.
Mrs. Pepin: No, not me, but maybe some of our other
colleagues ... vous avez dit que . ..
Mme Pepin: Non, pas a moi, mais peut-etre a certains de
mes autres collegues ... you said that . ..
Ms Miller:. By the. way, what I am going to discuss is at a
street level, not that violence does not occur at other levels. I
am always a little reluctant, because I know that gentlemen
have a side to them-they love details. However ...
Mme Miller: Je va is d'ailleurs parler de la violence dans la
rue, mais cela ne veut pas dire qu'on ne la retrouve pas
aiIleurs. Je suis toujours un peu reticente parce que les
messieurs ont une petite tendance-ils aiment les details.
Cependant ...
Mr. Nunziata: I hope that was not sexist.
M. Nunziata: J'espere que ce n'etait pas une remarque
sexiste.
Ms Miller: Actually it was. We were having a discussion
about sado-masochism on the way to the car and we decided
that it is a human natural state in man's evolution.
Mme Miller: En fait, si. Nous avons eu une discussion sur Ie
sado-masochisme en venant et nous avons decide que c'est un
stade naturel de I'evolution humaine.
When you are on the streets for a while, you begin to know
the difference when you look at a man, whether he is capable
of killing you, a maniac, or whether he is a man simply acting
out a fantasy. There are occasions of both; you begin to get a
sense of it. This particular gentleman, I know he has murdered. I will never be able to prove that, but I know that he
has. I looked into his eyes and I knew the difference.
Une fois que vous avez un peu I'experience de la rue, vous
voyez tres bien, en regardant un homme, s'il s'agit d'un
maniaque capable de vous tuer ou simplement un homme qui
veut realiser un fantasme. On voit les deux et on sent bien la
difference. Cet homme-la, je sais qu'il a tue. Je ne pourrai
jamais Ie prouver, rna is je Ie sais. J'ai vu ses yeux, et je connais
la difference.
• 1605
This gentleman took me away out on the freeway. He was
travelling at a heavy speed. When I tried to get him to stop he
reached down in his car ... By the way, I just want you to
know that this is just one incident. This is going on every day
in this country to lots of girls. He reached down in his car and
II m'a emmene dans sa voiture, sur I'autoroute. II roulait
vite. Lorsque je lui ai demande de s'arreter, iI s'est baisse pour
attraper ... iI faut que je vous dise que ce n'etait la qu'un
incident parmi d'autres, la meme chose arrive a des quantites
de filles tous les jours. II a attrape un revolver. Je savais alors
317
Projet de loi C-49
I knew that this man was going to kill me if
itll' itltll1e, I had one alternative, to try and jump out of
I Hlld tllke my chances on the freeway. I opened the door
H".t 10 t.:all his bluff. It did amply call his bluff. He got a
lift VIlII~ and he said: Okay, okay. We were going about
.111 hour. He said: Okay, okay, shut the door. Then he
th'illI!!h all this "mishigas": I am sorry; I do not know
! w". Iloing, blah, blah, blah-and settling down.
11111 " II-UI1,
'Pi
ad.
-11111
Avant que je m'en rende compte, nous etions en dehors de la
ville. Je n'avais pas remarque que nous avions tant roule et il a
gare sa voiture dans un champ, pres d'un fosse. II m'a fait tout
un cirque pour me montrer qu'il etait bien intentionne, m'a
demande de sortir de la voiture pour que je voie qu'il enfermait
Ie revolver dans Ie coffre.
. thing you get is a little voice after a while some1\ little voice that said: Do not get out of this car;
lillt want blood stains in his car; make su~e you leave
Quand vous avez un peu d'experience, vous avez une voix
interieure qui vous met en garde. La, rna voix interieure me
disait de ne pas sortir de la voiture, qu'il ne voudrait sfirement
pas de taches de sang sur les sieges.
I~
IHound the time, by the way, I was working under a
nlllllc lind the violence was so bad at that time that I
considering getting a dog chain to put around my
I knew I had a mother at home who did not know
. ~ doing and was on her hands and knees every night
1I\11! I was alive. So I thought I had better get a dog
hllH in cllse I do not make it one of these days at least
!ill notified so she will not be left praying on her knees
of hlff life, wondering.
thl~
Pendant ce temps hi, l'homme range son pistolet. Je lui dis:
c;:a va bien, je n'ai pas besoin de sortir de la voiture, j'ai
confiance en vous. On apprend egalement a jouer la comedie
dans ce metier.
n 1\ot back out of the car. He mulled around back
L'homme est sorti de la voiture, il a tourne un peu et
compris qu'il ne m'aurait pas. II est rentre dans la voiture et
m'a ramene en ville en se con fondant en excuses. II s'est
engage dans Ie premier croisement de rues a I'entree de la ville,
s'est range sur Ie bord du trottoir, et tout est aile tellement vite
que je n'ai rien vu. La voiture s'est deportee, j'ai entendu un
clic, la voiture s'est arretee et j'a,vais un couteau sous la gorge.
J'ai apeine vu bouger sa main, et voila qu'il tenait un couteau.
II m'a in forme polimeni qu'un couteau ne fait pas de bruit et
qu'il pourrait Ie nettoyer facilement.
il while and saw that it was not a go. He got back in
ud .tarted back to town terribly apologetically. The
troct we hit at the beginning of the city again he
, lind I am telling you it was so fast: all I felt was a
a click; the car stopped; and I had a knife at
•
>1',
I hlld seen him move his hand down here, a fast
there was a knife. He politely informed me that it
tnllko
II
noise and that he could clean that up easily
I Informed
the gentleman that I would be very happy
hhtl but he had to understand that I am just trying to
11111", and could he not spare $10.
I thought: If I am
III\vo to die then I am going to make him pay some"r this. It continued. You can laugh. You can think it
I thought I was going to die that night. I thought that
or later everyone's number comes up. I had been
mAny times. I thought: This is it; this is the one that
through it, and I said and did a lot of things to save
B sense of where he was coming from. I knew I
Romething that was very sick inside him and I
a
A \'epoque, d'ailleurs, je travaillais sous un nom different, et
les actes de violence etaient tellement repandus que j'avais
envisage serieusement de me mettre un collier autour du cou
avec mon nom, car j'ai une mere qui ne sait pas ce que je fais
et qui prie Ie ciel a genoux tous les jours pour que je sois en vie .
J'avais done pense a porter un collier avec mon nom afin qu'au
moins elle soit prevenue s'il m'arrivait quelque chose, qu'elle
ne passe pas Ie restant de sa vie a genoux, dans l'angoisse de
mon sort.
I'
is going on while the man is putting this gun in
I said: That is fine; I do not need to get out of
I \rUNt you. You learn to say those things too.
~tHIL
,n
[Traduction]
qu'il allait me tuer s'il trouvait un endroit isole. Je n'avais
qu'une solution, essayer de sauter de la voiture, courir rna
chance. J'ai ouvert la porte pour lui faire peur. Cela a marche,
il est devenu un peu nerveux et a dit: c;:a va, c;:a va-nous
roulons a 70 milles a I'heure-allez, ferme la porte. Ensuite il
s'est confondu en excuses, a dit qu'il etait desole, bla bla bla, et
s'est cal me.
jI",t thing I knew we were in the boonies. In that space
I 1\lld not noticed that we had gone that far out and he
HI~ ~wcrve of the car over into a field and we were
II It field by a ditch. The man went through all of these
" to show me that he was well intended 'lind would I
l!~t out of the car and witness that he was putting the
illfl trunk of the car.
I IIl1t
,;r",,_,
2: 13
Je lui ai alors dit que je ferais ce qu'il voulait, que tout ce
que je cherchais c'etait a gagner rna vie; ne pourrait-il pas me
passer 10$? Je me disais que s'il me fallait mourir, je lui ferais
payer au moins quelque chose. Cela a continue. Vous pouvez
rire, vous pouvez trouver cela drole, mais moi, je pensais
mourir cette nuit-Ia. Je pensais que c;:a y etait. Tot ou tard
votre tour arrive, et j'avais deja rechappe tant de fois. Je me
disais: c;:a y est, celui-Ia va me tuer.
J'ai fait ce qu'il a voulu, j'ai fait et dit beaucoup de choses
pour sauver rna vie. J'avais l'impression de savoir ce qu'il
cherchait, je savais que je devais satisfaire quelque chose en lui
de tres derange et j'ai dit: d'accord.
318
2: 14
Bill C-49
22-10-1985
[Text)
[Translation]
We headed back for town. He pulled over to drop me off
and I saw his hand go down the side of the car one more time
and I thought: What is it now; the first time it was a gun; the
second time it was a switch-blade; what is it now?
Nous sommes revenus en ville. II s'est arrete pour
deposer, et j'ai vu sa main se glisser sur Ie cote du siege
fois de pius. Quoi encore?, me suis-je dit, la premiere
c'etait un pistolet, la deuxieme fois un couteau, qu'est-ce
~ va etre maintenant?
Very quickly-and I am going to tell you something: you are
almost paralysed with fear in these occasions, and I got very
lucky-I grabbed a hold of the door quickly and started to
kick it with my foot. I knew that in order to stop him with
whatever he had in his hand down here I was going to have to
come up with something to stop him. But these are things you
are doing in a split second.
Tres rapidement--et je vais vous dire une chose: dans ces
casola on est presque paralyse de terreur, et j'ai eu beaucoup de
chance-j'ai attrape la poignee de la porte et j'ai commence a
y donner des coups de pied. Je savais que pour I'empecher de
se servir de ce qu'il avait dans la main, j'allais devoir detourner
son attention. Ces choses-Ia se deroulent en une fraction de
seconde.
Do you know how many times I was incapable of pulling
that off and should have died? Do you know how many times?
Do you know how many times this face you are looking at
right now represents thousands of girls across this country
every day, this story? This just happened to be a success one.
But do not be carried away with it, because as Marie gave
statistics, those are the people who did not.
Savez-vous combien de fois je ne m'en suis pas sortie et
aurais dii mourir? Savez-vous combien de fois? Savez-vous
com bien de filles cette figure que vous avez sous les yeux
represente, a combien de milliers de filles il arrive chaque jour
la meme chose? Cette fois-Ia je m'en suis sortie. Mais ne vous
rejouissez pas trop, Marie vous a donne les chiffres, il y en a
beaucoup qui ne s'en softent pas.
me
une
fois
que
• 1610
I thought quickly. I rammed my face up as close to his as I
could, with a great big smile, and I said, I am so glad I met
you. He was shocked. I had the door kicked open and I moved
out fast. It was enough to stop him for that second for me to
get out.
J'ai reflechi vite. J'ai approche rna figure de la sienne aussi
pres que possible, avec un grand sourire, et lui ai dit que j'etais
contente de I'avoir rencontre. II est reste tout bete. J'ai ouvert
la porte d'un coup de pied et je suis partie. <;a I'a distrait juste
Ie temps qu'il me fallait pour sortir.
That is a success story. Marie read you the not-success
stories. These are realities. This is not television. These are not
little porno films that you will get titillated by. This is the
reality.
Cette fois, cela s'est bien termine. Marie vous a parie des cas
ou eel a se termine mal. C'est la realite, ce n'est pas de la tCie.
Ce ne sont pas de;gentils petits films pornos qui vous titillent,
c'est la realite. .
Ms Mitchell: I am the member for Vancouver East and I
am a member of the New Democratic Party. I would like to
address some of my questions to Marie, and perhaps the rest of
you would like to comment more generally.
Mme Mitchell: Je suis deputee de Vancouver-Est et membre
du Parti neo-democrate. J'aimerais poser quelques questions a
Marie plus precisement; vous autres vous pourrez egalement
me donner votre opinion.
I am sorry I had another meeting and I was a little late
getting in for the initial report, but I think you probably know
the New Democratic Party opposes C-49. We have been very,
very consistent about this. We do not think prostitution should
be decriminalized and prostitutes, most of whom are women,
would have a criminal record as a result of. .. and young
people as well, of course, we are particularly concerned about.
We also are concerned that Bill C-49 ... even though it
includes customers, we feel it is unlikely a man in a car
cruising along is going to be picked up in the same way the
woman on the street is. The old reference to the vagrancy laws
I think is the thing we are afraid would be reintroduced.
Je regrette d'etre arrivee en retard, je n'ai pas entendu toute
votre declaration preliminaire, mais vous savez probablement
que Ie Parti neo-democrate est oppose au projet de loi C-49.
Notre position a ce sujet a toujours ete tres constante. Nous ne
pensons pas qu'i! faille decriminaliser la prostitution; les gens
qui se prostituent, dont la plupart sont des femmes, auraient
un easier judiciaire du fait que ... nous nous preoccupons tout
autant de la prostitution des jeunes· gar~ons. Nous rcraignons
egalement que Ie projet de loi C-49 ... meme s'i1 est applicable
egalement aux clients, nous jugeons peu probable qu'un
homme circulant en voiture se fasse arreter avec la meme
facilite qu'une femme dans la rue. Ce que nous craignons, c'est
la reintroduction des anciennes lois sur Ie vagabondage.
I am very, very concerned about juveniles too. I know from
the Vancouver East point of view, and Mount Pleasant, this is
a very major concern, where we do not seem to have any way
of enforcing some of the child welfare legislation.
Je me soucie egalement beaucoup des prostituees mineures.
Je sais que cela est un grave probleme dans Vancouver-Est et
Mount Pleasant, et iI ne semble exister aucun moyen de fa ire
appliquer la legislation sur la protection de I'enfance.
So we are really concerned about C-49. But at the same
time-and I am the women's critic as well, so I am very
concerned from a woman's point of view in particular-I must
saY,as the member from Vancouver East, I am also extremely
concerned about what has been happening in Mount Pleasant.
Le Bill C-49 nous preoccupe done beaucoup. Mais en meme
temps--et je suis egalement Ie porte-parole de mon parti
concernant la situation de la femme, et toute cette question
m'interesse egalement a ce titre--en tant que deputee de
Vancouver-Est, toute cettesituation dans Ie quartier de Mount
319
Projet de loi C-49
"J-0-19KI
1'~." I
.~ I',ili
probably share these concerns: so much noise and
,It lIuiNlInce that the community has been completely
I Of course, customers and observers cruising around
F"IIIIf! u lot of the harassment. The fact that pimps are
lill IIvcr territories literally with batons, I was told at one
111111 young people are on the street, as I say; that
II
. much of the activity was going on around school
~I IIfI~ point, and children are exposed to the street scene
~\llkitillg; and also that there has been extreme danger
il;lilUlcH ... I remember one woman was murdered under
IIlIlIHlt building.
.
Ma premiere question est done de savoir ou en sont les
choses, car je sa is que toute cette activite s'est deplacee dans
un autre quartier. Cela n'est certainement pas une solution, et
j'aimerais savoir ou en sont les choses.
IIlher question I have is, do you feel there has been
tmforccment of existing laws in relation to some of the
I flHHlIioned?
Mon autre question est la suivante: pensez-vous que la loi et
concernant certains des aspects que j'ai mentionnes est
correctement appliquee'?
i\rrllliton: First, I think it has been greatly exaggerated
in the last few months, as well as in the West End.
iliol!lns in that city have used the women for their
The media in that city have used the women for
loncy; and so have the residents. The women are the
m~ in this scenario.
Mme Arrington: Tout d'abord, la presse a beaucoup exagere
durant les derniers mois concernant la situation a Mount
Pleasant et dans Ie West End. Les hommes politiques de la
ville ont monte tout cela en epingle, ont exploite les femmes; la
presse en a fait autant, la population du quartier aussi. Ce sont
les femmes qui sont les veritables victimes de cette exploitation.
jiUll)fI that street patrolling five nights a week. I do not
out on the street. I see punks who are 17, 18, 19
lind who come down on the street to harass the
bUI I very rarely see pimps out on the street. So that is
UIlIUlcrated.
J'arpente les trottoirs de cette rue cinq nuits par semaine. Je
ne vois nulle part de souteneurs. Je vois des jeunes punks de
dix-sept, dix-huit etdix-neuf ans qui viennent harceler les
femmes, mais je vois tres rarement des souteneurs. On a
beaucoup exagere cela.
Mrillll fallacy that all the women have pimps. In fact, a
minority of the women in the Mount Pleasant area
at all. They may have boyfriends, but as this
'IH!W~ it, any man who has any kind of relationship
prn~titute is living off the avails. But we do not see
who IIrc prostitutes and giving money to men as any
(rom any other woman who works at a job and gives
, Sharing your income is sharing your income,
the man is unemployed or employed. We share our
!Hld we do not see these men as pimps who are
II n'est pas du tout vrai que toutes les femmes ont un
souteneur. En fait; ce n'est qu'une tres petite minorite des filles
dans Ie quartier de Mount Pleasant. Elles ont peut-etre des
amis, mais dans Ie systeme qui est Ie leur, tout homme qui a
des relations avec une prostituee vit a ses depens. Mais nous ne
voyons pas en quoi une femme qui est prostitul:e et donne de
l'argent a un homme est differente d'une autre femme qui a un
emploi et remet ce qu'elle gagne a un homme. Partager, cela
revient toujours au meme, que ce soit avec un hom me qui est
en chomage ou avec un homme qui a un emploi. Nous
partageons ce que nous gagnons et nous ne voyons pas Ie
souteneur dans notre ami.
fll\\dill~the stuff that has been going on in Mount
i 6u~cl'l
~t j~~I~
Jitillc;nt.
[Traduction 1
Pleasant me perturbe beaucoup. Je pense que vous serez
probablement de mon avis: tellement de bruit, tellement de
nuisance que tout Ie quartier en est completement retourne. La
perturbation est due, bien sur, en grande partie aux clients et
aux badauds, qui viennent tourner en voiture. Mais on m'a
meme dit que les souteneurs se disputent Ie trottoir a coups de
baton; il y a aussi les enfants; a un moment donne, toute cette
activite se deroulait pres d'ecoles, et les enfants assistaient a
tout ce spectacle, au racolage; il y a aussi les graves dangers
que courent les prostituees ... je me souviens qu'une femme a
ete assassinee dans Ie sous-sol d'un immeuble.
IIrHt question is I would like to know what is happen, hccnusc I know there has been a move to another
I 11111 liurc that is not any kind of a solution from anyl'''lnt of view, but I would be interested to know what
as a result of that.
iil\'
.1QltiC rot
2: 15
. iI
qu'un
• 1615
ineur,cH.
,~~""E
! €II
we have been very concerned with the children. The
Ministry of Human Resources as well as everybody
ned say they cannot do anything. Well, if they can
ohlldren and pick them up night after night, hour
,. lind take them back to the group homes, I do not
IhilY cannot find ways and means of supplying safe
Plitt Alternatives for these children to the street. You
IlQllroc these children off the street because these
hlivo been independent so long. You cannot browbeat
iI (lolling off the street; you have to provide something
hllli what is there.
Un autre sujet qui nous inquiete, ce sont les enfants. La
police, Ie ministere des ressources humaines et tous les autres
nous disent qu'ils ne peuvent rien. Eh bien, s'illeur est possible
de harceler ces enfants nuit apres nuit, a toutes les heures,
pour les ramener dans les foyers d'enfants, je ne vois pas
pourquoi ils ne parviennent pas a trouver pour ces enfants
d'autres solutions que la rue. II n'est pas possible d'arracher
ces enfants a la rue, parce qu'ils ont ete independants pendant
trop longtemps. Ce n'est pas a force de menaces que vous les
enleverez a la rue, il faut leur trouver quelque chose de mieux.
320
2: 16
22-10-1985
Bi1l C-49
[Text]
For the Ministry of Human Resources in British Columbia
to have said that these children are not in crisis because they
are used to this kind of existence is not okay. Ninety percent of
the children out on the street are in care of that government.
We have seen them as young as 10 in Vancouver. We have
seen them as young as six in Winnipeg.
[Translation1
II est inadmissible d'entendre Ie ministere des ressources
humaines de la Colombie-Britannique declarer qu'i1 n'ya pas
de crise pour ces enfants, parce qu'i1s sont habitues a ce mode
de vie. Quatre-vingt dix pour cent des enfants de la rue-dont
certains, Vancouver, n'ont pas plus de dix ans et Winnipeg
pas plus de six-sont a la charge de ce gouvernement.
Ms Crawford: I work in Mount Pleasant, and as far as a1l
this goes, the police have moved us. They have us down now in
warehouses. We are still getting harassed night and day. In
two months, we have been moved four times. Our dates cannot
even find us now. So now they say they are going to spend
$30,000; they are going to put lights down there; they are
going to have this for us, and they are still harassing us.
Mme Crawford: Je travaille a Mount Pleasant, dont la
police a reussi a nous deloger. Nous sommes maintenant dans
Ie quartier des entrepOts, mais ils continuent a nous harceler
nuit et jour. En deux mois, on nous a delogees a quatre
reprises, et nos amis ne savent meme plus oil nous sommes. On
parle maintenant de depenser 30,000$ pour amenager Ie
quartier, pour nous y installer, et avec tout cela on continue a
nous harceler.
Before I left, every time I got into a car, I was not in the car
for two seconds and I was told to get out. I just want to be in a
place where I can work, get paid and be left alone. I do not go
out there to gossip or beat up people or molest children. We go
out there to work. We are not all junkies. There are junkies out
there; I am not a junkie. Most of the girls I hang with are far
from being junkies; they are just out there making a living.
They want to pay the rent; they want to eat, and maybe they
want some nice things. There is nothing wrong with that.
There are lots of kids out there, but what can I do? I cannot
support all these kids. I can tell these little girls that they
cannot work around me, but where are they going to go? There
is no place for them to go. I cannot take them all in; Marie
cannot take them all in. They are out there. They have to find
an alternative for them.
Avant mon depart, chaque fois que je montais en voiture,
une minute ne s'etait pas ecoulee que deja on me demandait
d'en sortir. Tout ce que je demande, c'est qu'on me laisse
travailler, qu'on me paie et qu'on me laisse tranquille. Je ne
fais pas Ie trottoir pour bavarder, ou assaillir des gens, ou
molester des enfants. Je fais un boulot. Nous ne. sommes pas
toutes des droguees, bien qu'il y en ait; mais moi, je n'en suis
pas. La plupart des filles que je frequente sont loin d'etre
droguees; tout ce qu'elles veulent, c'est gagner leur vie. Elles
veulent payer leur loyer, elles veulent pouvoir se nourrir et
peut-etre s'acheter de jolies choses. II n'y a pas de mal a cela.
II y a des tas d'enfants dans la rue, rna is qu'y puis-je? Je ne
peux pas les nourrir tous. Je peux interdire a ces petites filles
de travailler a proximite de moi, mais oil iront-elles? II n'y a
pas de place pour elles. Je ne peux pas m'occuper de toutes, et
Marie ne peut pas"non plus s'en occuper. Ces enfants sont dans
la rue, et il faudrait s'en occuper.
Ms Miller: I would like to address that, please.
a
a
Mme Miller: J'ai des choses a dire la-dessus, s'i1 vous plait.
I am getting really tired of the press and politicians trying to
whitewash a very serious problem that we have with the youth,
trying to whitewash it as a prostitution problem. Prostitution
happens to be one of the things kids on the street may engage
in, but in fact, they are doing a lot of other things to survive. If
we are going to address them, let us address them properly.
Stop doing an injustice to them by whitewashing it all under
the prostitution problem. They are a separate issue.
Je suis lasse d'entendre la presse et les hommes politiques
essayer de camoufler un probleme tres grave et de Ie travestir
en probleme de prostitution des jeunes. La prostitution est
peut-etre l'une des choses que font les enfants de la rue, rna is
pour survivre ils font bien d'autres choses, et si nous devons
nous pencher sur cette question, examinons-Ia sous tous ses
angles. Ne commettez pas une injustice en ramenant tout a
une question de prostitution, car c'est un probleme a part.
Problem children are victims. They are on the street trying
to survive as well as they can because the alternatives they
have been given-their natural parents, foster homes, the
courts, reform schools or whatever was the alternative for
them-were unacceptable, and unless we are willing to address
that, then all we are doing is setting them up. The fact that
you try to mix that up with the issue of prostitution ... It has
nothing to do with prostitution. Stop whitewashing them and
these kids.
Les enfants a probleme sont des victimes. S'ils sont dans la
rue, a essayer de survivre de leur mieux, c'est parce que les
autres possibilites qu'ils avaient-a savoir leurs parents
naturels, ou les foyers adoptifs, les tribunaux, les ecoles de
redressement ou toutes autres solutions de rechange-etaient
inacceptables, et si nous ne regardons pas la question en face,
nous ne ferons que braquer ces enfants. Vous essayez d'amalgamer cette question a celie de la prostitution, alors que ce
sont deux problemes differents. Cessez de vous aveuglersur les
difficultes de ces enfants.
Ms Mitchell: Thank you. I have just another quick question,
Mr. Chairman.
Mme Mitchell: Merci. II me reste encore une breve question, monsieur Ie president.
I agree with you from that point of view, and I think the
same goes from the point of view of incomes of women. You
know what the welfare rates are in British Columbia; by the
second week of the month some of these people have to get
Je suis d'accord avec vous sur cette fa~on de voir les choses,
et il en est de meme pour la question des revenus des femmes.
Vous savez ce que sont les prestations d'aide sociale en
Colombie-Britannique: la seconde semaine du mois, il faut se
321
Projet de loi C-49
. !~I
"'"It'whcrc. So there are all kinds of other things that
I~d, lind certainly, protection of children is a very
IllIn!! Ihlll should be dealt with under the law.
2: 17
[Traduction 1
meUre a chercher de I'argent ailleurs. II y a done toutes sortes
d'autres choses qui sont necessaires, et la protection des
enfants constitue certainement un probleme majeur qui devrait
etre regie par la Loi.
• 1620
Ji
an'
flU.
"lid
~uppOl'I
1\1
Bill C-49, what I find difficulty with ... and I
Bill C-49, but at the same time I have talked to
-h;tr(I'i!'1
!pll' who are directly involved in Mount Pleasant and
((11(111"
.1.1 think something is needed that is going to help
l'
~Oil
nar ,
,J!!lil1uI' A
I," IMre protected and have a choice of work, a choice
, tlmt «tHO protect neighbourhoods so people have a bit of
.\lld peace and safety in their own neighbourhoods. If
h"vo Bill C-49 ... obviously Bill C-19 is going to go
. Ihlll is predetermined.
illlIf!
That is not obvious.
MII(jh~lI: You can see the numbers; you can see the
\If the government on that side who will vote
Yes. but they also have to consider that we have
ngencies, we have the support of NAC, we are
now to the feminists, they are reaching to us.
Iloing away. The next debate on women's issuesIl(!ntlemen; the Prime Minister's debate-is going to
tIIi~ IliMuc. It is going to land back in your lap. I do not
i~ necossarily true this bill will pass. We can look at
IN,
jilholl: I know; but may I just finish my question.
IHed t'O get back to is you said, I think, Marie, that
I~d the' Fraser commission report. The Fraser
report, as I understand it, also talks about
up the Criminal Code as far as some of the
flf(lvlNlons are concerned. Do you agree with that part
!lyue It is too much legalese. It confuses me, I must
Pour en revenir au projet de loi C-49, j'y vois une difficulte!
Je ne suis pas en faveur de ce projet de loi, rna is fai parle a un
grand nombre de personnes que la situation a Mount Pleasant
touchait de pres, et je crois vraiment qu'i1 faut faire quelque
chose pour aider a proteger ces femmes et leur permettre de
pratiquer d'autres metiers, mais iI faut egalement proteger Ie
voisin age, afin que Ie cal me, la paix et la securite regnent dans
les quartiers. Si Ie projet de loi C-49 n'existait pas ... mais iI
est certain qu'il va etre adopte .
Mme Miller: Ce n'est pas evident.
Mme Mitchell: Vous Ie voyez de vos propres yeux: de ce
cote-Ia de la table, du cote du parti ministeriel, ce sont ceux
qui voteront contre ...
Mme Miller: Oui, mais i1s doivent egalement tenir compte
du fait que nous avons de grands organismes sociaux, nous
avons I'appui du Comite national d'action, nous demandons
maintenant I'appui de feministes, et elles nous Ie donnent.
Nous n'allons pas nous laisser faire. Le prochain debat sur les
problemes relatifs aux femmes sera national, messieurs, ce sera
Ie premier ministre qui Ie presidera, et nous allons y soulever
cette question. C'est vous qui en heriterez de nouveau. II n'est
pas certain, a mon avis, que ce projet de loi sera ado pte, et on
peut y apporter destainendements.
Mme Mitchell: Je Ie sais, mais permettez-moi de terminer
rna question. Vous disiez, Marie, que vous etiez en faveur du
rapport de la commission Fraser, mais je crois savoir que ceo
dernier envisage egalement de rendre plus strictes les dispositions du Code criminel concernant les nuisances. Etes-vous
d'accord sur ce point? Peut-etre vous perdez-vous dans ce
jargon d'avocat, car je Ie confesse, cela m'arrive aussi.
We do not need any more laws than there
need abolition of laws against women. In the
are nuisance laws, there are city by-laws, there
'Of 'Other laws that could be enforced. We were
!!lumber of the Vancouver Police Department that
told not to enforce these laws so that things would
Ihllt they would be nationally passed.
Mme Arrington: Nous n'avons pas besoin d'autres lois, nous
en avons assez. Ce que nous demandons, c'est que soit abolie la
legislation dirigee contre les femmes. II reste les lois sur les
nuisances, les arretes munieipaux, toutes sortes d'autres lois
qui pourraient etre mises en vigueur. L'un des membres de la
police de Vancouver nous a dit qu'on leur avait demande de ne
pas les appliquer et de laisser empirer la situation, afin qu'on
adopte une loi pour tout Ie pays.
I also want to say I was hopeful of having a copy
here today. Unfortunately, because we did not
w,rll soing to be on the agenda at such short notice,
(Il,ll I()CIIle it. It was a letter ... I do not know if it is
(or, me to say this, because I do not have it as
,hough this is not a court of law. It was a letter
'Of Police in Vancouver, who was at that time, I
illrpcrs'On 'Of the police chief association, which laid
what their tactic was going to be to regain
powers over prostitutes and women. It was very
nlll they were not to enforce at all. It was total
Mme Miller: Je voulais egalement ajouter que j'esperais
avoir aujourd'hui une copie de la letlre, mais nous n'avons pas
pu la trouver, parce que nous avons ete prises au depourvu
avec la convocation a si breve echCance. C'etait une leUre ...
Je ne sa is pas si j'ai Ie droit de dire cela, parce que je ne puis la
produire comme preuve, bien que nous ne soyons pas iei au
tribunal. C'etait une lettre du chef de la police de Vancouver,
qui etait a I'epoque, je crois, president de l'Association des
chefs de police, une lettre dans laquelle il disait sans ambages
que la tactique adoptee allait etre de retablir les pleins
pouvoirs sur les femmes et les prostituees. La lettre donnait
322
2: 18
Bill C-49
22-10-1985
[Text]
obstinacy in the face of the court ruling. They were hopeful the
public ... it is the old" give them enough room and they will
hang themselves"; the people will go and do the lobbying for
us-we are all being used as pawns-and in that way we will
get our old power back. It was very clearly laid out. At the top
of the letter it read, For Police Eyes Only.
[Translation]
pour consigne de ne pas faire appliquer la loi. C'etait un refus
obstine d'appliquer la decision du tribunal, dans l'espQir que Ie
public ... c'est toujours la meme chanson: donnez-Ieur les
coudees franches, et ils se perdront eux-memes. II y aura des
plaintes et des pressions-nous sommes toutes des pions entre
leurs mains--et de cette fa<ron, ils veulent regagner leur
emprise sur nous. Tout y etait clairement expose et sous l'entete il y avait la mention: «uniquement a I'intention de la
police •.
The Executive Director of the Elizabeth Fry Society at the
time, Christie Jefferson, did an interview in Halifax with the
police on this issue. She was very good, thank goodness, and
she allowed the police to make all these objections; and once
they had put their foot in it, she then pulled out the letter.
Everyone stammered and stuttered and it' was successfully
squashed after that. It has never come out of Halifax since.
Mme Christie Jefferson, directrice a I'epoque de la Societe
Elizabeth Fry, a interviewe la police de Halifax sur cette
question. Elle s'y est tres bien pris, heureusement, et elle a
laisse la police presenter toutes ses objections; quand tout a ete
dit, elle leur a mis la lettre sous Ie nez. lis ont alors bredouille
et bafouille, et depuis on n'en a plus reparle aHalifax.
I was hoping we would have it available today. That is just
to give you some idea that everyone is being used as a pawn,
and so are you.
J'esperais que nous aurions aujourd'hui cette lettre entre les
mains, simplement pour vous faire com prendre que nous
sommes manoeuvres par eux, vous aussi bien que nous.
Ms Arrington: In fact, what has happened in Vancouver is
that the police harassment has increased. Women have been
taken out to the University of British Columbia endowment
lands by the police, dropped off, and made to walk back.
Mme Arrington: Ce qui est arrive a Vancouver, en fait, c'est
que la persecution de la police n'a fait qu'empirer. La police a
ramasse des femmes, les a amenees sur les terres domaniales
de I'Universite de Colombie-Britanique, les y a abandonnees,
les for<rant de revenir apied.
The Fraser committee report is full of instances of police
describing how they harass and abuse prostitute women across
this country. It is in print. To this date nothing has been done
about the physical and mental abuse and violence by the police
towards women. We have had instances of women who are not
prostitutes being accused by the police of being prostitutes and
made to leave the area. We have had the·police call Immigration on young black women who are not prostitutes to be
checked out because they are black ... and the racist myth.
Le rapport du Comite est emaille d'exemples donnes par la
police sur la fa<ron dont elles harcelent et persecutent les
prostituees dans tout Ie pays. Cela y figure noir sur blanc. Rien
n'a ete fait a ce j9ur pour proteger les femmes de la violence
physique et mentaJe exercee par la police a leur egard. II y a eu
de cas de femmes qui n'etaient pas des prostituees, rna is qui
ont ete accusees de l'etre par la police et qui ont dii quitter leur
quartier. II est arrive que la police fasse venir les agents du
bureau d'immigration pour verifier les papiers d'identite de
jeunes femmes noires qui n'etaient pas des prostituees, mitis
simplement a cause de la couleur et de prejuges racistes.
• 1625
The Chairman: Thank you. Mr. Nicholson is next.
Ms Miller: Oh, I am sorry.
Mr. Nicholson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On behalf of the
government members I would like to welcome all the witnesses
here today and thank them for their presentation on, what the
heck, everyone will admit is a very difficult situation concerned
with Bill C-49, the soliciting act. This is a bill which has been
approved in principle by the House of Commons. It is a bill
that this committee would have no authority to reject in any
case. So I agree with the member for Vancouver East, the
member of the New Democratic Party and her colleagues,that
really no matter how much they oppose this bill or how long
they hold it up at committee stage, the bill will still pass. But
nonetheless, it is important' for usMr. Nunziata: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.
Le president: Je vous remercie. La parole est
son.
a M.
Nichol-
Mme Miller: Oh, excusez-moi.
M. Nicholson: Je vous remercie, monsieur Ie president. Au
nom du parti ministeriel, je voudrais souhaiter la bienvenue a
tous les temoins etles remercier de leurs exposes sur Ie projet
de loi C-49, la loi sur Ie racolage, qui, reconnaissons-Ie, est un
vrai guepier. C'est un projet de loi qui a etc approuvc en
principe par la Chambre des communes, et que Ie Comite n'a
de toute fa<ron pas Ie pouvoir de rejeter. Je reconnais donc avec
Ie depute de Vancouver Est, membre du Parti neo-democrate
et ses collegues, qu'il n'est pas en leur pouvoir, quels que soient
leurs efforts ou les moyens dilatoires auxquels ils ont recours,
d'empecher ce projet de loi d'etre adopte. Neanmoins, il est
important pour nous ...
M. Nunziata: J'invoque Ie Reglement, monsieur Ie president.
323
5
22-10-1985
Projet de loi C-49
[Texte]
Mr. Nicholson: Oh, I am sorry. I apologize to Mr. Nunziata. He also and the Liberal Party are opposing it as well. If
that is the point of order, I will agree with that.
The Chairman: Please, Mr. Nicholson ...
Ms Mitchell: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.
:e'
•..l!-.
:s
II
:e
u
t.
Le president: Je vous en prie, monsieur Nicholson ...
Mme Mitchell: J'invoque Ie Reglement, monsieur Ie
president.
Le president: S'il vous plait, monsieur Nicholson, je vous
saurais gre de ne pas enfreindre Ie Reglement comme vous
I'avez fait. Je donne donc la parole a M. Nunziata, a propos de
son objection.
Mr. Nunziata: On my point of order, I would just ask the
hon. member not to deliberately mislead the witnesses here
today. Indeed, the government does have the authority to
withdraw the bill. They can present another bill to the House
of Commons and to committee. The government ... We are
supreme in Parliament. With the support of the government,
we can amend this bill on a unanimous vote. So for him to
suggest that it is a forgone conclusion is a deliberate misinterpretation of reality and I would ask the member not to
deliberately mislead the witnesses.
M. Nunziata: Ace propos, je voudrais demander a I'honorable depute de ne pas deliberement induire en erreur nos
temoins. Le parti ministeriel a en fait Ie pouvoir de retirer Ie
projet de loi et d'en presenter un autre a la Chambre des
communes et au Comite. Le gouvernement ... nous avons tout
pouvoir au Parlement. Avec I'aide du parti ministeriel, nous
pouvons modifier ce projet de loi par un vote unanime. C'est
done fausser la realite que de dire que I'affaire est jouee
d'avance, et je prierai Ie depute de ne pas induire deIiberement
les temoins en erreur.
The Chairman: Have you a separate point of order,
Madam?
Le president: Est-ce que vous aviez une autre objection,
madame?
Ms Mitchell: Yes. I just wanted to quickly say, Mr.
Chairman, that I really resent the misrepresentation of the
New Democratic Party. It is what Pat Carney and others are
saying in Vancouver, that we are holding up this bill. We are
participating in a democratic way the same as the others, not
holding up any bill.
Mme Mitchell: Oui. Je voulais simplement dire, monsieur Ie
president, que je suis indignee de la fa<;:on dont Ie Parti neodemocrate represente les choses. Madame Pat Carney et les
autres font croire a Vancouver que nous retardons I'adoption
du projet de loi, alors que nous exer<;:ons nos droits democratiques au meme titre qy.e les autres, et ne retardons aucun projet
de loi.
The Chairman: I think the member who spoke put it forward
as a possibility that you might do that. Certainly it is not
correct up to this point.
Le president: Le depute qui a dit cela I'a avance comme une
silnple possibilite, et ce n'est certainement pas Ie cas a ce stade.
Est-ce que vous voulez bien continuer, monsieur Nicholson?
Mr. Nicholson: Thank you. I know the truth hurts the
members of the opposition parties.
M. Nicholson: Je vous remercie. Je sa is que rien ne blesse
davantage les membres de I'opposition que la verite.
Ms Mitchell: But that is not the truth; that is the problem.
Mme Mitchell: Mais ce n'est pas la verite, c'est justement la
Ie probleme.
Mr. Nicholson: I prefer to tackle both sides of the face, but I
think Canadians are getting the message. In any case, back to
Bill C-49.
M. Nicholson: Je prMere entendre les deux sons de cloche,
mais je pense que les Canadiens commencent a comprendre.
De toute fa<;:on, revenons-en au projet de loi C-49.
I would like to address my question to the members from the
Alliance for the Safety of Prostitutes. I apologize, I did not get
the second name of the second speaker. Your first name was
Marie and your last name was?
Je voudrais poser une question aux membres de I'Alliance
for the Safety of Prostitutes (Alliance pour la securite des
prostitutes). Excusez-moi, rna is je n'ai pas saisi votre nom,
madame. Votre prenom est Marie; quel est votre nom de
famille?
Ms Arrington: Arrington.
;,
[Traduction]
M. Nicholson: Oh, excusez-moi. Je presente mes excuses a
M. Nunziata, qui lui aussi, ainsi que son parti, s'oppose au
projet de loi. Si c'est la son objection, je suis d'accord avec lui.
The Chairman: Just a minute. Mr. Nicholson, I would
appreciate it very much if you would not put yourself so clearly
out of order as you have done at this time. We will start with
Mr. Nunziata on a point of order.
Would you please go on Mr. Nicholson?
: i
2: 19
Mr. Nicholson: Arrington. Thank you. The problem-and I
realize the comments that you made were addressed mainly to
the Vancouver area. I come from a different area of the
country that is quite far removed geographically from that, but
some of the problems are the same, I think. I represent the
area of Niagara Falls and at least one of the members of the
panel alluded to the fact that sometimes there can be problems
Mme Arrington: Arrington.
M. Nicholson: Je vous remercie, madame Arrington. Les
commentaires que vous avez faits avaient trait principalement
ala region de Vancouver. Bien que je vienne d'une autre partie
du pays, qui en est fort eloignee, certains problemes n'en
demeurent pas moins les memes. Je represente la region de
Niagara Falls, et au moins un des membres du groupe a parle
des problemes relatifs a la prostitution qui s'exerce dans la rue.
324
2: 20
22-10-1985
Bill C-49
[Text]
with prostitution being engaged on the street. You have
enumerated some of the problems that women who are
involved with this meet. I think there are legitimate concerns
of residents as well and I believe that Ms Miller indicated that
you, me and everyone would probably agree that if obnoxious
behaviour, whether it is punks or it is just the customer or the
prostitute is engaging in obnoxious or loud behaviour out on
the street, that this can become a difficulty.
[Translation]
Vous avez parle de certaines difficultes que rencontrent les
femmes qui s'y engage nt, rna is je pense que les habitants de ces
quartiers ont egalement Ie droit d'exposer leurs doleances. Si
des gens se conduisent mal dans la rue, qu'il s'agisse de
«punks» ou que ce soit simplement Ie client ou la prostituee qui
sont bruyants et indecents, nous allons avoir des problemes.
I wonder, what do you think we can do? If you would agree
that there can be a problem with street soliciting for the people
of certain neighbourhoods, what do you think we can do about
that and what would you suggest as an alternative to this bill?
J'aimerais vous demander ce que vous attendez de nous. Si
vous reconnaissez que Ie racolage dans la rue peut deranger les
habitants de certains quartiers, comment, a votre avis,
devrions-nous intervenir et que proposez-vous d'autre a la
place de ce projet de loi?
Ms Arrington: Well, number one, we qo have laws in
Vancouver, as I am sure you have in Niagara Falls, against
disturbing the peace, noise, public nuisance, littering and all
the other things that go with that. The police in Vancouver
have been using it over andover. You know, one woman got
seven littering tickets for one night for butting out her
cigarette on the sidewalk. The police are using this to the best
of their ability to harass the women. It could be used against
the residents, it could be used against the tricks, it could be
used against the punks and, yes, it could be used against the
women when they are fighting.
Mme Arrington: Pour commencer, nous avons des lois a
Vancouver, de meme que vous a Niagara Falls, j'en suis sure,
des lois contre ceux qui troublent l'ordre public, qui font du
bruit, qui importunent les autres, qui jettent des detritus, etc.
La police de Vancouver a largement utilise ces lois. C'est ainsi
qu'une femme a eu sept amendes en une seule nuit parce
qu'elle ecrasait sa cigarette sur Ie trottoir. La police fait feu de
tout bois pour harceler les femmes. On pourrait s'en servir tout
aussi bien contre les residants, contre les clients, contre les
punks et meme contre les femmes quand elles se battent.
• 1630
Mr. Nicholson: Do you think it is helping the problem, or do
you think it is dealing with the problem of nuisance-the
present situation in Vancouver?
M. Nicholson: Est-ce que cela aide a resoudre Ie probleme,
d'apres vous, ou est-ce que cela porte sur Ie probleme des
nuisances, a savoir la situation actuelle a Vanco\lver?
Ms Arrington: I think it could very easily be dealt with.
That when the police are present ... I was out there the other
night. There were 15 women working and there were 22
policemen on the beat.
Mme Arrington: Je pense qu'il serait fort possible de Ie faire.
Lorsque la police est presente ... je m'y trouvais l'autre soir, il
yavait 15 femmes au kavail et 22 policiers en patrouille.
,-
Mr. Nicholson: They could not have been doing much work.
M. Nicholson: La police ne devait pas avoir trop de travail a
faire.
Ms Arrington: There were more policemen than there were
working women. There were no tricks out there because they
are scared to come down there because the police presence is
so great. So the women are just standing there twirling their
umbrellas and wasting time. In fact, because of the harassment
and the presence of the police, and the lack of money being
made, the women are out there earlier. They are out as early
as 10 a.m. and they stay out there until 5 in the morning.
Mme Arrington: Les policiers etaient plus nombreux que les
femme, et les clients n'osaient venir parce qu'ils ont peur
quand il y a tant de policiers. Les femmes se con ten tent donc
de faire Ie pied de grue en faisant tournoyer leur parapluie, et
perdent leur temps. En fait, la presence et Ie harcelement de la
police, ainsi que Ie manque :i gagner, poussent les femmes :i
sortir plus tot. Elles sont sur Ie trottoir des 10 heures et y
restentjusqu'a 5 heures.
Mr. Nicholson: Thank you very much.
M. Nicholson: Je vous remercie beaucoup.
Ms Miller: I want to ...
Mme Miller: Je voulais ...
Mr. Nicholson: Just a point of order: Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman: Order, please!
Mr. Nicholson: I believe the bells are ringing, and I believe
it would be in order to adjourn the meeting.
M. Nicholson: J'invoque Ie Reglement, monsieur Ie president.
Le president:
A l'ordre!
M. Nicholson: J'entends la sonnerie, il conviendrait de lever
la seance.
Mr. Nunziata: On the same point of order, Mr. Chairman.
M. Nunziata: Meme objection, monsieur Ie president.
The Chairman: Mr. Nunziata.
Le president: Monsieur Nunziata.
325
22-10-1985
2: 21
Projet de loi C-49
Ms Miller: I want to answer that question on the nuisance,
please.
[Traduction]
Mme Miller: Je voudrais repondre
nuisances, s'il vous plait.
Mr. Nunziata: On that same point, Mr. Chairman, it is
regrettable that the bells are ringing. I hope the witnesses
appreciate the fact that our presence is required in the House
of Commons for a vote. But Mr. Chairman, I would ask that
the government consider inviting the witnesses back, because
we in the opposition certainly have a lot of other questions we
would like to ask. I think they have presented us thus far with
a tremendous amount of useful information for our deliberations with respect to this bill. I would certainly appreciate the
opportunity to ask other questions of the witnesses.
M. Nunziata: Monsieur Ie president, il est regrettable que
nous ayons la sonnerie, et j'espere que les temoins comprennent que nous devons nous rendre a la Chambre des communes
pour voter. Mais je voudrais demander, monsieur Ie president,
s'il est possible d'inviter les temoins a revenir, parce que les
membres de l'opposition ont certainement beaucoup d'autres
questions a leur poser. Les temoins nous ont fourni une grande
quantite d'information fort utile 11 nos deliberations sur ce
projet de loi, et j'aimerais certainement pouvoir leur poser
d'autres questions.
Cathy: We all have a great deal to say. I do myself as well.
There is a lot ...
Cathy: Nous avons toutes beaucoup a dire, moi egalement. II
ya beaucoup ...
.-.
Mr. Nunziata: So I would move that motion, Mr. Chairman,
that the witnesses be invited back at the earliest opportunity in
order to continue their submissions and to answer questions.
M. Nunziata: Monsieur Ie president, je voudrais donc
presenter une motion invitant les temoins a revenir dans les
plus brefs delais afin de nous faire entendre leurs temoignages
et de repondre anos questions.
ae.
)ut
"'''''s.
The Chairman: There is a great deal of ingenuity being
displayed here, and I am sure the witnesses are as well aware
of it as the rest of us.
Le president: On finasse beaucoup ICI, et les temoins se
rendent sans doute compte aussi bien que nous.
[Texte]
.es
lui
Si
du
tc.
1
h will be taken up by the steering committee as to whether
we will ...
Mr. Nunziata: With respect, Mr. Chairman, on that. . .
a la
question sur les
Le comite directeur examinera la question ...
M. Nunziata: Permettez-moi de dire, monsieur Ie president,
que ...
".
a dire,
les
Ms Mitchell: Let us use the time to hear from the women,
instead of squabbling.
Mme Mitchell: Ecoutons donc ce que ces dames ont
au lieu de nous chatpailler.
..
The Chairman: I think we had better hear from your partner
if we are going to hear points of order for any length of time.
Madam Pepin.
Le president: Nous aimerions que votre partenaire nous
fasse savoir s'il va continuer 11 invoquer sans cesse Ie Reglement. Madame Pepin.
Mme Pepin: Monsieur Ie president, nous avons des temoins
qui viennent de Vancouver et de d'autres villes, et je pense,
qu'effectivement, leur temoignage n'a dure simplement qu'une
heure et demie. Habituellement, lorsqu'on siege en comite, les
temoignages durent plus longtemps. Je serais d'accord pour
qu'on essaie de leur donner Ie maximum de temps et si elles
sont pretes 11 revenir plus tard qu'on les invite. Je trouve qu'on
ne leur donne pas Ie meme temps de parole que ron donne aux
autres temoins.
Mrs. Pepin: Mr. Chairman, we have here witnesses who
came from Vancouver and from other cities, and we have given
them only an hour and a half of our time. Witnesses get
usually much more time in a committee, and I agree that we
should try to give them as much time as possible and invite
them to come back if they are willing to. I find that they have
not been allotted as much time as other witnesses.
, "
c.
et
v-a:I?y
:Sl-
Mr. Nunziata: On the same point, Mr. Chairman.
You pointed out that the steering committee schedules
meeting, but this committee is supreme in terms of scheduling
meetings. J have put a motion that I would submit is a proper
motion before the committee, and I would ask that a vote be
taken on the motion.
Ms Mitchell: A point of order, Mr. Chairman.
ver
If we are sincere about this, I wonder why we could not ask
if the women who are witnesses were available to stay and we
could come back after the vote. I would be very amenable to
doing that.
M. Nunziata:
president.
A propos
de la me me objection, monsieur Ie
Vous faisiez remarquer que Ie comite directeur decide des
reunions, mais Ie Comite a Ie droit de decider en dernier
ressort des reunions qu'il veut organiser. J'ai prepare une
motion en regie 11 presenter au Co mite et je voudrais qu'on la
mette aux voix.
Mme Mitchell: J'invoque Ie Reglement, monsieur Ie
president.
Si nous Ie voulons vraiment, ne pourrions-nous pas demander aux temoins si elles peuvent attendre notre retour apres Ie
vote. J'y sera is tout 11 fait dispose.
326
Bill C-49
2: 22
[Text}
Ms Miller: We would suggest that, because we really cannot
come back and forth. We do not have the funds ...
22-10-1985
[Translation}
Mme Miller: Nous n'avons vraiment pas I'argent pour faire
des aUees et venues.
Mme Arrington: Ce sont des voyages fort coiiteux.
Ms Arrington: It costs a lot of money.
Ms Miller: -and it is costing you money, too-taxpayers'
money. We are willing to wait. We are here for the day. We
will remain until our time is up.
Mme Miller: ... et cela vous coiite egalement de I'argent,
I'argent des contribuables. Nous sommes disposes a attendre,
nous sommes venues ici pour la journee et nous resterons aussi
longtemps qu'ille faudra.
The Chairman: I would suggest to the committee that we see
how the vote goes, and if we finish it at 5 p.m. that we return
here; if not, we will adjourn until tomorrow at 3.30 p.m.
Le president: Je propose au Comite de voir comment se
passe Ie vote, et si nous avons termine a 17 heures, nous
pourrons revenir, rna is dans Ie cas contraire, nous reprendrons
la seance demain a 15h30.
M. Nunziata: A ce meme propos, monsieur Ie president ...
Mr. Nunziata: On the same point, Mr. Chairman ...
Ms Miller: We do not have the funds with which to stay
that long. We had ... if we are getting reimbursed, but we are
very poor women, unlike the stereotype is painting us. We do
not have the front money to pay the hotel bill tonight to stay
an extra day. We feel that you are setting up arbitrary
situations so that we cannot testify, and I think that is really
unfair.
Mme Miller: Nous n'avons pas d'argent pour rester aussi
longtemps. Si on nous rem bourse ... mais nous sommes tres
pauvres et pas du tout comme les stereotypes no us depeignent.
Nous n'avons pas de quoi nous payer l'hotel cette nuit si nous
devons rester une journee de plus. Nous avons I'impression que
vous nous mettez dans I'impossibilite de temoigner, et cela me
parait fort injuste.
Mr. Nunziata: Mr. Chairman, on the same point, I have a
motion on the floor. If the member for Vancouver wishes to
amend that so we meet later this evening ... I do not believe it
is appropriate or fair or courteous to suggest that if the vote is
not over by 5 p.m. then we will adjourn until tomorrow
morning. I think it is an important piece of legislation,
deserving of the utmost scrutiny and consideration. These
women have come a long way to share their experiences ...
M. Nunziata: Monsieur Ie president, toujours sur Ie meme
sujet, j'ai presente une motion. Si Ie depute de Vancouver veut
I'amender, afin que nous nous reunissions dans la soiree ... Je
crois qu'il n'est ni approprie, ni juste, ni poli de dire que si Ie
vote n'a pas eu lieu a 17 heures, la seance reprendra demain
matin. C'est un projet de loi important, qui merite toute notre
attention. Ces temoins sont venues de loin pour nous faire part
de leur experience ...
Mr. Nicholson: Earlier this afternoon we were talking about
the Maintenance Act and the Divorce Act, and not you or any
of the members of your party were there.
M. Nicholson: ";U debut de l'apres-midi nous parlions de la
Loi sur la pension alimentaire et sur Ie divorce, et vous, ainsi
que les membres de votre parti avez brille par votre absence.
Mr. Nunziata: -to share their experiences with us ...
M. Nunziata: ... pour nous faire part de leur experience ...
The Chairman: Order, please!
Le president: AI'ordre!
A witness: I do not believe these people!
Un temoin: Je crois rever!
The Chairman: Would you restate your motion, Mr.
Nunziata?
Le president: Voudriez-vous reformuler votre motion,
monsieur Nunziata?
• 1635
Mr. Nunziata: The motion is, Mr. Chairman, that immediately following the vote in the House of Commons we move
that the committee reconvene to continue hearing the witnesses and to ask questions of them. That is the motion.
M. Nunziata: Monsieur Ie president, je propose que tout de
suite apres Ie vote a la Chambre des communes, Ie Comite se
reunisse de nouveau pour entendre les temoins et leur poser des
questions. C'est la rna motion.
Mr. Nicholson: It is a problem for some of us here, Mr.
Chairman. I have a caucus meeting that I am scheduled to
attend later this afternoon. And if the vote goes any longer
than 5.00 p.m., I will not be able to be here. I would appreciate
if members .. ,
M. Nicholson: Cela pose des prob\c~mes Ii certains d'entre
nous, monsieur Ie president. J'ai une reunion de caucus a
laqueUe je dois assister en fin d'apres-midi, et si Ie vote se
poursuit au-dela de 17 heures, il me sera impossible de revenir.
J'aimerais que les membres ...
Ms Crawford: I have to be in Vancouver; I cannot stay.
Mme Crawford: Je dois me rendre a Vancouver et ne puis
rester.
The Chairman: Order, please! Let us take turns at talking
here. Does anybody else have anything to contribute to this
debate?
Le president: A I'ordre, s'il vous plait! A chacun son tour de
parole. Y a-t-il quelqu'un d'autre qui veut intervenir?
Ms Miller: Yes. I just want to say that we came here to
examine alternatives, yet the first hour and a half has been
Mme Miller: Oui. Je voulais simplement dire que nous
etions venues pour examiner differentes possibilites, mais la
327
22-10-1985
[Texte)
devoted to describing and qualifying the situation. We are only
now beginning to look at alternatives. This is what we came
for. That hour-and-a-half, we did not need-nor all that
qualifying; we know the facts. That was for your benefit.
air"
ent.
"~e,
:s;
t
So.
''"''''Us
.
f
en\
10US
Maintenant c'est a notre tour d'avoir droit a votre attention.
Ce serait simple politesse que de faire ce pourquoi nous
sommes venues, a savoir examiner les possibilites, tenir compte
des contraintes, economiques et autres, qui sont les notres.
Nous ne touchons pas de gros traitements.
The Chairman: That is fine. Mr. Nunziata has posed a
motion and it has been seconded. They did not wish to accept
my suggestion and now we will have to vote on the motion. All
those in favour?
Le president: Bon, c'est bien. M. Nunziata a presente une
motion qui a ete appuyee. lis n'ont pas voulu accepter rna
proposition, et main tenant nous devons mettre la motion aux
voix. Tous ceux qui sont pour?
Mr. Nunziata: I would ask for a recorded vote, Mr. Chairman.
M. Nunziata: Je voudrais demander que Ie vote soit
enregistre, monsieur Ie president.
La motion est adoptee par six voix contre zero.
Motion agreed to: yeas, 6; nays, 0
.,Lme
u~
:
j
H l\:..
lain
[Traduction)
premiere heure et demie s'est passee a decrire la situation.
C'est seulement maintenant que nous en arrivons a l'examen
des diverses possibilites, ce pourquoi nous sommes precisement
venues. Nous n'avions pas besoin de passer une heure et demie
sur les faits, nous les connaissons. C'etait pour votre information.
Now we want some things for our benefit. I think it is only
courteous that what we came here for, the alternatives, are
looked at, and in the light of our limitations here-economically and so forth. We do not get big salaries.
Ii
;~i
2: 23
Projet de loi C-49
The Chairman: I declare the motion carried. We will come
back here when the vote ends. I suppose there is no limit to this
and, if somebody decides to let the bells ring, we will come
back at midnight or whenever.
Le president: Je declare la motion adoptee. Nous reviendrons donc lorsque Ie vote aura eu lieu, sans limite de temps, je
suppose, et si quelqu'un decide de laisser continuer la sonnerie,
nous reviendrons donc a minuit ou plus tard s'ille faut.
• 1638
"-r:
II
• 1728
.,tla
11
/'
Le president:
The Chairman: Order, please.
When we adjourned the meeting the Conservative, Mr.
,Nichol!!on, had spoken for some six minutes, and that leaves an
opening for a Conservative. If any other Conservatives wish to
take up some of the time then they are welcome to do so at this
time.
ion,
t de
..i.s
e
nire, ,
A l'ordre, s'il vous plait.
Quand nous avons leve la seance, Ie Parti conservateur,
monsieur Nicholson, avait eu droit a six minutes de parole. II
reste donc une possibilite pour les Conservateurs. Si d'autres
conservateurs desirent utiliser ce temps, c'est Ie moment de Ie
dire.
Would you like to speak? Go ahead then.
A vous la parole.
Mme Bourgault: Monsieur Ie president, je vous remercie.
Mrs. Bourgault: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Je voudrais d'abord feliciter I'Alliance pour la securite des
prostituees qui a presente un rapport que j'ai lu cet apres-midi.
Je regrette de ne pas avoir eu Ie temps de Ie lire avant. Vous
insistez sur Ie fait-et je suis d'accord avec vous--que la
securite face a la violence doit s'appliquer a toutes les femmes,
de toutes les couches de la societe, peu importe Ie metier
qu'elles font, peu importe les endroits ou elles vont. De quelle
maniere interpretez-vous cette situation de violence-Ia dans Ie
cadre du projet de loi C-49, Loi modifiant Ie Code criminel
(prostitution)? Concernant la violence dont vous parlez dans
votre memoire, quelle est la relation que vous faites entre Ie
projet de loi et votre position face a la violence? Trouvez-vous
que la violence va s'intensifier ou regresser?
First of all I would like to congratulate the Alliance for the
Safety of the Prostitutes for their brief which I read this
afternoon. I am sorry not to have been able to read it before.
You emphasize the fact-and I agree with you-that all
women, whichever social class they belong to and whatever the
job they have or the places they have to go, should be protected
from violence. How do you see this situation of violence in the
context of Bill C-49, an Act to amend the Criminal Code
(prostitution)? About the violence that you discuss in your
brief, what relationship is there between the bill and your
position towards violence? Do you feel that violence will get
worse or that it will diminish?
r de
-'
us
s la
• 1730
Ms Miller. Who are you addressing, please?
Mme Miller: A qui vous adressez vous, s'il vous plait?
Mrs. Bourgault: I do not know, all of you.
Mme Bourgault: Je ne sais pas, a chacune d'entre vous.
328
Bill C-49
22-10-1985
(Text)
Cathy: I will be glad to answer. I missed the first part of
your question, but I believe you are asking about the violence
connected with Bill C-49. I had said before that I think
violence is going to become an increasing problem and it has
already become a seriously increasing problem over the last
few years. I had said before, years ago, that at least in the little
part of the world I work in, which is escorting, we had our
little safety system which now just is not. We have nothing we
can do for our safety.
(Translation)
Cathy: Je me ferais un plaisir de vous repondre. Je n'ai pas
saisi Ie debut de votre question, rna is je pense que vous vous
interrogez au sujet de la violence par rapport au projet de loi
C-49. J'ai dit tout a l'heure que je pensais que Ie probleme de
la violence allait s'aggraver et qu'il avait deja commence a
empirer ces dernieres annees. J'ai deja dit que, dans Ie passe,
du moins dans mon petit monde a moi, celui de l'escorte, nous
avions notre propre systeme de securite. Aujourd'hui, nous ne
l'avons plus, nous ne pouvons rien faire pour notre securite.
\-' With this bill, you are going to drive us so far underground
Jnd make us work under such difficult conditions, with many
"' more people working within those more dangerous conditions,
that violence is bound to escalate. There is no question. It is
not theory; it is not hypothesis. We are going to start getting
,
illed; there is no question about that.
Avec ce projet de loi, vous allez nous enfoncer tellement
dans la c1andestinite et nous faire travailler dans des conditions
tellement difficiles et dangereuses que la violence ne pourra
faire autrement qu'augmenter. Cela ne fait aucun doute. Ce
n'est pas une theorie, ni une hypothese. Nousallons commencer a nous faire tuer; cela ne fait aucun doute.
We escorts right now have certain legal problems in
carrying out our business. With Bill C-49 they are going to be
multiplied many times over. We already cannot take care of
our people. With Bill C-49 we are going to be able to do so
even less and we are going to have more people to care for.
Les services d'escorte eprouvent deja des problemes sur Ie
plan de la loi. Avec Ie projet de loi C-49, ces problemes se
multiplieront. Nous avons deja du mal a prendre soin de nos
gens. Avec Ie projet de loi C-49, ce sera encore pire, et nous
aurons a nous occuper de davantage de monde.
Ms Miller: I would like to quaiify something she is saying
there. She is talking about the safety net that is there now.
Mme Miller: J'aimerais commenter quelque chose qu'elle
vient de dire. Elle parle d'un filet de securite.
~
Cathy: But we do not have one.
Cathy: Mais nous n'en avons pas.
Ms Miller: There is no real safety net. The Criminal Code
prohibits us from working together, passing numbers along, to
say: Listen, I know this man and he will not hurt you; he is a
good date. It is against the law to work together out of an
agency, where we can keep track of who they are. Escort right
now is guilty many times of an indictable offence when they
are taking very simple safety measures. This will make police
power even more sweeping, however, to go in after them.
Mme Miller: II n'y a pas de vrai filet de securite. Le code
criminel nous interdit de travailler ensemble, de nous communiquer des renseignements qui nous permettraient de dire que
cet homme est correct, qu'i! ne nous fera pas de mal, qu'j) est
un bon client. C'est contre la loi de travailler pour une agence
ou l'on peut savoir ~ui sont les clients. En prenant des mesures
de precaution tres simples, les services d'escorte commettent
tres souvent un acte criminel. Avec Ie projet de loi, Ie pouvoir
de la police d'effectuer des descentes sera encore plus vaste.
Cathy: If I can say so, it is not an accident that I am the one
most heavily veiled here. I am in the most vulnerable position
legally of the witnesses because of the fact that I am an escort
service owner. The law is biased very much against us.
Cathy: Si vous me permettez, ce n'est pas pour rien que je
me suis voile Ie visage. Sur Ie plan juridique, c'est moi la plus
vulnerable, parce que je suis proprietaire d'un service
d'escorte. La loi s'acharne beaucoup contre nous.
Ms Miller: It is indictable, seven years.
Mme Miller: ElIe est passible de sept ans de prison.
Cathy: In practice we have the least harassment. I do not
want to really use the word "harassment". In practice we have
the least trouble with the police, but on the bottom line, on
paper, we are certainly the most vulnerable. It is an indictable
situation, a very, very borderline kind of life. Life is paranoia.
For me, my life is paranoia every single day, and it has been so
for seven years. Bill C-49 is going to make it much worse for
many of us.
Cathy: En pratique, c'est nous qu'on harcele Ie moins. Je
n'aime pas vraiment Ie mot .harcelemenb. En pratique, c'est
nous qui avons Ie moins de problemes avec la police, mais au
bout du compte, sur Ie papier, nous sommes certainement les
plus vulnerables. C'est une activite punissable d'emprisonnement; un genre de vie qui est a peine possible. La vie est une
paranoia. Pour moi, je vis dans la paranoia tous les jours, et
cela fait sept ans que je vis comme ~a. Le projet de loi C-49 va
nous rendre la vie encore plus difficile.
Do you people know who we are or something? What do you
think we are? We are your sisters and your daughters and your
sisters-in-law and your neighbours and your neighbour'S
friend's daughter. We are regular people. Many of us have
jobs in the straight community. I do. I am a merchant. I have a
store; I have children; I have a position in my community. I am
a member of a merchants' association, where I have to get up
as a merchant and try to defend the street girls. There are very
difficult problems we have to deal with. Our lives are quite
Avez vous une idee de qui nous sommes? Qui pensez-vous
que nous sommes? Nous sommes vos soeurs, vos filles, vos
belles-soeurs, vos voisines, la fille de l'ami de votre voisin.
Nous sommes des gens ordinaires. Bon nombre d'entre nous
ont un travail ordinaire. C'est mon cas. Je suis commer~ante.
Je possede un magasin, j'ai des enfants, j'occupe une place
dans rna collectivite. Je suis membre d'une association de
commer~ants ou je dois en tant que commer~ante, essayer de
defendre mes filles. Nous sommes aux prises avec de tres
329
22-\0-\985
Projet de loi C-49
2: 25
[Texte]
troubled because of the persecution we have to endure at every
level of our lives.
[Traduction]
gra"nds problemes. Nos vies sont grandement perturbees a
cause de la persecution que nous devons endurer a tous les
niveaux.
At some point while we are here, I really would like to bring
up, if I could-and if I forget, let us get back to it-the issue
of Bell Canada and of the credit card companies, which are
very, very serious problems to us. I pay $25,000 a year to Bell
Canada for one reason: I have nowhere else I can advertise.
Pendant que nous sommes la, j'aimerais vraiment vous
parler--et avant d'oublier, je vais Ie faire tout de suite--du
tres grave probleme que nous avons avec Bell Canada et les
compagnies de cartes de credit. Je paie 25,000$ par annee a
Bell Canada pour une seule et simple raison: je ne peux faire
de pu blicite ailleurs.
[Difficultes techniques-note de I'editeur].
[Technical difficulty-Editor]
• 1735
----,
_r
!
Ms Arrington: I can see that the juveniles will be locked up.
There will be a revolving door, as well as for adults.
Mme Arrington: Je peux voir que les jeunes se feront
emprisonner. Ce sera un veritable va-et-vient, meme pour les
adultes.
As it is now, most provincial governments do not make any
kinds of provisions for children who are runaways. There are
no safe houses, and in fact our government has cut back on
social services to the point of elimination. There is nothing for
the children. As I said earlier, our Minister of Human
Resources has made the statement that she does not consider
these children in crisis because they are used to this kind of
life.
A I'heure actuelle, la plupart des gouvernements provinciaux
ne prevoient rien pour les enfants en fugue. II n'y a pas de
maisons d'accueil et, en fait, nos gouvernements ont reduit
presque a neant les services sociaux. II n'y a rien pour les
enfants. Comme je I'ai deja dit, notre ministre des Ressources
humaines a declare qu'elle ne considere pas ces enfants comme
etant en situation de crise, parce qu'ils sont habitues a ce genre
de vie.
These children are out there and there are getting to be
more and more children out there and they are getting younger
and younger. With the passing of this bill these children are
going to get into the system of the slavery end of the trade. We
already know of some children who have escaped who have
been locked in hotel rooms at the age of 10 for three or four
months. We already know of children who have been turned
out by their father at the age of 13 and have been' kept in
apartment buildings locked up.
Les enfants sont la dans la rue; i1s sont de plus en plus
nombreux, et de plus en plus jeunes. Avec ce projet de loi, ces
enfants seront reduits a I'esclavage. Nous connaissons deja des
enfants de dix ans 4ui ont reussi a s'echapper apres avoir ete
enfermes dans des chambres d'hOtel pendant trois ou quatre
mois. Nous connaissons des enfants que Ie pere a obliges a se
prostituer a I'age de treize ans, et qu'i1 a enfermes dans des
appartements.
When these children go to the authorities they are called
liars. They are called incorrigible. They are called all kinds of
names and are not believed.
Quand ces enfants se rendent aux autorites, on les accuse de
mentir. On dit qu'i1s sont incorrigibles. On les appelle de toutes
sortes de noms, vous ne Ie croiriez pas.
Every day we see in the papers in British Columbia another
child who has been an incest victim and is always put in
question. Until the governments wake up and take on the
responsibility and this society takes on the responsibility of
what is happening to the youth in this country-that has
nothing to do with prostitution; it has to do with child abuseand the opportunities for these children, nothing will be done.
H has to be addressed as the economics of the children, the
opportunities for the children, the nuclear holocaust that is
held over these children's heads and the general attitude of the
children in this society of the doom and gloom.
Nous lisons tous les jours dans les journaux de la ColombieBritannique qu'un autre enfant a ete victime d'inceste, et c'est
toujours sa parole qu'on met en doute. Tant que les gouvernements ne se reveilleront pas et tant que, avec la societe, i1s ne
se pencheront pas sur Ie sort des jeunes du pays--et cela n'a
rien a voir avec la prostitution; ce sont des enfants qui se font
maltraiter--et sur ce qu'on peut offrir aces enfants, rien ne
changera. II faut se pencher sur la situation de ces enfants, sur
Ie sort qui les attend; sur I'holocauste nucleaire qui pese sur
eux, sur I'attitude generale des enfants dans cette societe de
malheur.
Ms Miller: I would like to say that one of the big problems-and Marie was alluding to it there-these kids have is
that they are not given any credibility. They are given no
validity, and more importantly, they have absolutely no
damned rights at all. None. Not even the most fundamental of
rights to say: I do not want to live in this home because it is
hurting me.
Mme Miller: Je voudrais vous dire que I'un des gros
problemes--et Marie vient d'y faire allusion-c'est qu'on
n'accorde aucune credibilite aces enfants. On ne reconnait a
ces enfants aucune valeur, et chose plus importante encore,
absolument aucun droit. Aucun. Pas meme Ie droit Ie plus
fonda mental de dire: je ne veux pas vivre dans cette maison
parce que Ita me fait mal.
330
2: 26
Bill C-49
22-10-1985
[Translation]
[Text]
• 1740
We have a court system where there is a legal guardian that
makes these kinds of decisions. I have had personal experience
with this legal guardian. They are callous. They do not
represent these kids. We have to start giving these kids validity
and giving them rights. When you talk about stigmatizing
their problem as a problem of prostitution, these kids are very
vulnerable, number one. They are looking for an image, a selfimage. When you arrest them as a juvenile prostitute, what
you have done is you have just handed them a ready selfimage. They are told: I will tell you what you are; you are a
prostitute. They grab that. They are processed through the
courts and the legal systems and the social systems, carrying
that stigma, and that is what they leave your system with when
they turn 21. I know what I am. I am a prostitute.
Dans notre systeme jucidiaire, c'est Ie tuteur legal qui prend
ce genre de decision. J'ai eu une experience personnelle avec
un tuteur legal. lis sont sans coeur. lis ne representent pas les
enfants. Nous devons commencer a donner de la valeur et des
droits aces enfants. Quand vous parlez de leurs problemes et
que vous dites que c'est un probleme de prostitution, il faut
penser que ces enfants sont d'abord tres vulnerables. IIs se
cherchent une image, une image de soi. Quand vous les arretez
en tant que jeunes prostitues, vous leur donnez une image toute
faite d'eux-memes. C'est comme si vous leur disiez carrement
qu'ils sont des prostitues. Et ils I'admettent. lis passent au
travers I'appareil judiciaire et des systemes sociaux en portant
ce stigmate, et c'est ce qu'i1s retiennent de votre systeme
lorsqu'ils atteignent I'age de 21 ans. Je sa is ce que je suis. Je
suis un prostitue.
We have to start addressing them for what they are. They
are kids that have no alternatives and have been stripped of
rights. We must start giving them rights, giving them validity.
There are successful programs now in California. They were
done under a lot of controversy. I am sure they are not
unfamiliar to many of you, where they are starting to teach
children at a very young age. They have a course in these
schools to teach them about sex abuse. What is the difference
between a nice stroke and a good stroke and a bad stroke.
These kids are understanding it. They had a hard time getting
this program in. Since it has been in, they have had incredible
success. A lot of abuse cases are being uncovered. We have to
start feeding them at that level. We must give them the
credibility and the validity to say: I know what is hurting me
and where I hurt when I lived there.
Nous devons commencer a prendre ces enfants pour ce qu'ils
sont. Ce sont des enfants qui n'ont ·pas Ie choix, et qui ont ete
depouilles de t<?us leurs droits. Nous devons commencer a leur
donner des droits, a leur faire prendre conscience de leur
valeur. II existe des programmes qui fonctionnent bien en
Californie. lis ont provoque enormement de contreverses. Je
suis sure qu'ils ne vous sont pas completement inconnus ces
programmes ou I'on commence a eduquer les enfants tres
jeunes. II y a des cours, dans ces ecoles, qui leur parlent d'abus
sexuel. lis apprennent a faire la difference entre un sentiment
agreable et un sentiment desagreable. Les enfants comprennent. II a ete difficile de faire accepter Ie programme. Mais il a
donne des resultats jncroyables. De nombreux cas d'abus sont
maintenant mis au jour. Nous devons commencer a eduquer
les enfants a ce niveau-Ia. Nous devons leur accorder de la
credibilite et de la confiance pour qu'ils puissent nous dire: je
sais ce qui me fait mal, je sa is ou cela me fait mal quand je vis
la.
Unless we are willing to do that, all we want is power over
them and they pay the price. Do you know why? Because when
they become 21 they go into the adult penal system and they
enter that little revolving door. Then we say: What do we care?
It is an adult and they are supposed to know better.
A moins que nous ne soyons prets a faire cela, nous continuerons a exercer notre pouvoir sur eux et c'est eux qui en
paieront Ie prix. Vous voulez savoir pourquoi? Parce que
lorsqu'ils auront 21 ans, ils entreront dans Ie systeme penal des
adultes et ce sera un va-et-vient continuel. Et nous nous dirons:
eh bien qu'est-ce que !fa peut nous fa ire? lIs sont adultes, ils
devraient savoir ce qu'ils font.
I find it really difficult to listen to the callous manner with
which we talk about capital punishment, let us put them away
in penal systems, let us make more jails. When we have a
chance to treat them reasonably, to protect them from all of
that and protect us as a society from all of that, all we want to
do is brand them prostitutes and send them out.
Je trouve cela vraiment difficile de voir I'hypocrisie qui
entoure Ie debat concernant la peine de mort ou I'on dit:
enfermons-Ies dans Ie systeme penitencier, construisons plus de
prisons. Nous avons I'occasion de traiter ces personnes de
fa!fon raisonnable, de les proteger et de proteger la societe
contre tout cela, et nous ne trouvons pas mieux a faire que de
les etiqueter comme prostitues et de les tenir a I'ecart.
Mme Pepin: Vous seriez d'accord pour qu'il y ait une
strategie globale qui incluerait les aspects sociaux avec des
programmes pour la prostitution juvenile, afin de s'occuper des
jeunes?
Mrs. Pepin: You would agree then that there should be a
global strategy which would provide for social aspects in the
juvenile prostitution programs in order to take care of the
youth?
Ms Miller: To cover juveniles in trouble, not juvenile
prostitution. Prostitution is only one of the methods they turn
to in order to survive. They also are dealing dope. They also
are stealing. They are also robbing cars. They are going in
Mme Miller: Pour aider les jeunes en difficulte, et non pas
lutter contre la prostitution juvenile. La prostitution n'est
qu'un des moyens auxquels recourent les jeunes pour survivre.
IIs vendent aussi de la drogue. IIs commettent des vols. Ils
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22-10-\985
Projet de loi C-49
2: 27 }\
)'
[Texte]
restaurants. They are doing many things to survive. Why are
we treating it under the label of prostitution'? If we do that,
then we are treating them selectively. Let us let them define
where their trouble lies and where they hurt, instead of
labelling them according to our hang-ups.
[Traduction 1
volent des voitures. lis vont dans des restaurants. lis font toutes
sortes de choses pour vivre. Pourquoi disons-nous que c'est un
probleme de prostitution'? En faisant cela, nous les traitons de
fa~on s€:Iective. Laissons-les nous dire quels sont leurs problemes, ou ~a leur fait mal, plutot que de les etiqueter en fonction
de nos propres inhibitions.
Ms Arrington: I would like to speak to that. I grew up on the
street and I never worked as a prostitute. The other prostitutes
kept me out of the system and that cycle. But I did all kinds of
other things. I sold drugs. I did B & E's. I boosted stolen
property. I did everything I could to stay away from having to
turn a trick because I am an incest survivor and I hated men a
lot. I swore I would never under any circumstances, unless I
could name my own terms, put myself under the power of any
man. As a child I learned that very young. Ano I was one of
the lucky ones. I stayed out of that revolving door, but I did
other things that were much more damaging to society. But as
a child that has done these things, I am looked on much more
favourably than a child who has only damaged itself ...
Mme Arrington: J'aimerais faire un commentaire. J'ai ete
€:Ievee dans la rue et je n'ai jamais travaille comme prostituee.
Les autres prostituees m'ont empechee d'entrer dans Ie
systeme. Mais j'ai fait toute sorte d'autres choses. J'ai vendu
de la drogue. J'ai commis des vols avec effraction. J'ai fait du
recel. J'ai fait tout ce que je pouvais pour eviter la prostitution
parce que j'ai ete victime d'inceste et je deteste enormement
les hommes. J'ai jure que jamais, dans aucune circonstance, je
me soumettrais a un hom me a moins de pouvoir etablir mes
propres conditions. Enfant, j'ai appris cela tres jeune. Et je suis
parmi celles qui sont chanceuses. J'ai evite Ie systeme, mais j'ai
fait d'autres choses beaucoup plus dommageables pour la
societe. Mais on a beaucoup plus d'egard a l'endroit d'un
enfant qui a fait cela qu'a l'endroit d'un enfant qui a cause ·des
dommages a nul autre que lui-meme.
Mme Miller: Comme prostitue.
Ms Miller: As a prostitute.
Ms Arrington: Yes, as a prostitute. I think it is a very great
contradiction in our society that some things are acceptable
and some things are not and we do not address the cause and
effect of all the things around us.
Mme Arrington: ~ui, com me prostitue. Je pense qu'il y a hi
une tres grande contradiction quand notre societe accepte
certaines choses et pas d'autres sans s'interroger sur Ie rapport
de cause a effet entre toutes ces choses.
• 1745
.s .'
Mme Pepin: Plus tot vous avez dit que vous proposiez des
alternatives, que vous aimeriez discuter de ces alternatives au
projet de loi C-49. 1'aimerais que vous nous disiez queUes
seraient quelques-unes de vos alternatives.
Mrs. Pepin: You ,$aid earlier that you had alternatives, but
you would like to discuss these alternatives to Bill C-49. I
would like you to tell us what would one of those alternatives
be.
Ms Miller: Yes. Actually, I am glad you are bringing us
back to that. I think all of us want a turn at that, if we may.
Mme Miller: Oui. En falt, je suis heureuse que vous soyez
revenue la-dessus. Je pense que nous voulons toutes discuter de
cela.
Cathy: I think what we have to have, without question, is
decriminaliza tion, period.
Cathy: A mon avis, il ne fait aucun doute que ce qu'i! nous
faut, c'est la decriminalisation, un point c'est tout.
Ms Miller: Let us make it clear. When we are talking about
decriminalization, we are not talking about legalization. We
are talking about opening doors and allowing a business to
organize itself.
.
Mme Miller: Entendons-nous. Quand nous parlons de
decriminalisation, nous ne voulons pas dire legalisation. Nous
parions d'ouvrir des portes et de permettre a un commerce d.e
s'organiser.
Cathy: Not two girls working out of their apartment. Not
this, not that. Not 1,000 government regulations or restrictions. We want to function as any respectable business
would-a real estate company, a hardware store, a travel
agency, a this or that. Things would probably work themselves
out much better. A lot of the sleaze, I think, associated with
our business has a very great deal to do with the rather
anguished conditions under which we have to work. We are
forced into acting out things which really do not suit our
temperment particularly.
Cathy: Pas question de deux filles qui travaillent dans leur
appartement. Pas de ceci, pas de cela. Pas mille reglements
gouvernementaux ou restrictions. Nous voulons fonctionner
comme tout autre commerce respectable; une societe immobiliere, une quincaillerie, une agence de voyage, et je ne sais quoi
encore. Les choses iraient probablement beaucoup mieux si
c'etait comme cela. Ce qui rebute dans notre metier, ce sont les
conditions plutot deplorables dans lesqueUes nous devons
travaiUer. Nous sommes forcees de faire des choses qui ne
correspondent pas vraiment a notre temperament.
If we had more options, some ladies might decide to work in
a brothel, somebody else might decide to be an escort,
somebody else might decide to work through companions.
There are many, many different ways of expressing this
Si nous avions plus d'options, certaines femmes decideraient
peut-etre de travaiUer dans un bordel, d'autres pour un service
d'escorte ou encore par l'intermediaire de copains. II y a de
nombreuses fa~ons d'exercer ce metier. La societe est boulever-
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Bill C-49
22-10-1985
[Text)
[Translation)
profession. The culture is upset because these women are on
the street. The solution is not to go for the street, remove the
women from the street. It is only going to cause extreme agony
for all of the women and all of the aspects of the business.
see parce que ces femmes sont dans la rue. La solution n'est
pas de faire disparaitre les femmes de la rue. Cela va simplement causer enormement de difficultes pour toutes les femmes
et tous les aspects du metier.
Give us a little freedom, most of all to communicate with
one another. I am an escort service owner and a store owner.
At night, when I look out my window, there are street girls
working across the street from my store. I go out, I get into my
car to go on a call and look the other way. I do not even say
hello to them. I know what they are doing. They know what I
am doing. The division, the schism between us, is vast. We all
know the laws; we also know the rules. The rules say, you do
not organize, you do not communicate. You do not cross those
boundaries. Escort is escort, street is street a~d bar is bar.
Donnez-nous un peu de liberte; et surtout Ie droit de
communiquer entre nous. Je suis proprietaire d'un service
d'escorte et proprietaire d'un magasin. Le soir, quand je
regarde par la fenetre, il y a des filles qui font la rue en face de
mon magasin. Je sors, je monte dans rna voiture pour aller
faire mon travail et je regarde de l'autre cote. Je ne les salue
meme pas. Je sa is ce qu'elles font. Elles savent ce que je fait.
La distance, Ie schisme qui nous separe est enorme. Nous
connaissons les lois; nous connaissons aussi les regles. Les
regles disent qu'on ne s'organise pas et qu'on ne communique
pas. On n'empiete pas sur Ie terrain des autres. L'escorte c'est
l'escorte, la rue, la rue; et les bars, les bars.
In real life, with real women, that is not true. What we truly
have is a sisterhood among all of us, which none of us is really
allowed to express, which sets up artificial hostility among the
different groups. I do not think that would be there if we Were
allowed to nurture one another.
Dans la vraie vie, avec les vraies femmes, cela ne se passe
pas ainsi. Nous for mons veritablement une communaute, rna is
comme personne ne peut vraiment Ie montrer, il y a des
barrieres artificielles qui s'erigent entre les differents groupes.
Je ne crois pas que cela existerait si nous avions Ie droit de
nous entraider.
You worry about the young girls. Let us take care of the
young girls. We could probably do a better job of it if we were
allowed to communicate with them. If I had the chance to
have a brothel, I would have one. Give me six young girls.
They can sew. They can learn how to type and answer the
phones. They can do things that make sense. I suggest that we
are more loving towards one another than we are allowed to
be.
Vous vous inquietez des jeunes filles. Laissez-nous nous en
occuper. Nous pourrions probablement mieux nous occuper
d'elles si nous pouvions communiquer avec e\les. Si je pouvais
avoir un bordel, j'en aurais un. Donnez-moi six jeunes filles.
Elles apprendront a coudre, elles apprendront a dactylographier et a repondre au telephone. Elles pourront faire des
choses qui ont un sens. Je pense que nous avons beaucoup
d'amour. en nous,"mais on ne nous laisse pas l'exprimer.
Ms Arrington: I would like to take that further. We would
like ~ll laws abolished pertaining to prostitution, period. But
that will not get rid of prostitution and that will not stop
women from going out on the street until we have economic
parity. We need to have economic freedom as women and that
is not going to happen in a while, and not willingly, as long as
men are in power, as long as they have control over our lives as
women. We need to have that if we are to have any kind of
freedom. We need increased welfare rates. We do not need
them frozen. I do not know how many of you, as single women
or men, could live on $325 a month in Vancouver, when the
rents are going at $300 a month. I do not know how many of
you, with one child, could live on $620 a month, when two
bedroom apartments are going at $385 to $485.
Mme Arrington: J'irais meme un peuplus loin. Nous
voudrions que toutes les lois concernant la prostitution soient
abo lies, un point c'est tout. Mais cela n'eliminera pas la
prostitution, et cela n'empechera pas les femmes d'aller dans la
rue, tant que nous n'aurons pas la parite economique. Les
femmes ont besoin de liberte economique, et cela ne se
produira pas de sitot, tant que les hommes seront au pouvoir,
tant qu'ils auront Ie contrOle de nos vies en tant que femmes.
Notre liberte passe par la liberte economique. II faut augmenter les prestations d'assistance sociale. II ne faut pas les geler.
Je ne sais pas combien d'entre vous, hommes ou femmes
celibataires, pourraient vivre avec 325$ par mois a Vancouver,
alors que les loyers sont de 300$ par mois. Je ne sais pas
combien d'entre vous reussiraient a vivre avec un enfant, .avec
620$ par mois, lorsque les appartements de deux chambres a
coucher se louent de 385$ a485$.
.
It is an impossibility to survive. It is an impossibility to get
stamps to put your children in day care if you are on welfare.
That means you cannot go to school if you have children.
About 85% to 90% of the prostitutes in Vancouver have
children. They are out there because they have to feed thei'r
children, not because they love the profession or that it is a fast
"easy buck".
'
II est impossible de survivre. II est impossible d'obtenir des
timbres pour placer vos enfants a la garderie si vous etes
assistee sociale. Cela veut dire que vous ne pouvez pas aller a
I'ecole si vous avez des enfants. Environ 85 a 90 p. 100 des
prostituees a Vancouver ont des enfants. Elles sont dans la rue
parce qu'elles doivent nourrir leurs enfants, pas parce qu'elles
aiment Ie metier ou parce que c'est de I'argent facile.
• 1750
In the last two years, there are many women who have
turned out who never thought they would ever have to turn to
Au cours des deux dernieres annees, de nombreuses femmes
qui n'auraient jamais pense devoir faire ce metier, se sont
333
22-10-1985
S
!
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Projet de loi C-49
[Texte}
[Traduction}
prostitution to survive. These are women aged 36 to 40, have
children at home who are younger, and who have turned to
prostitution but, also, have turned to a "mickey" in order to be
able to work. That is because they never thought they would
have to give a man a blow-job for money. That is a reality of
what is going on for women.
prostituees pour survivre. II s'agit de femmes de 36 a 40 ans
qui ont de jeunes enfants a la maison et qui s'adonnent non
seulement a la prostitution, mais aussi a la bouteille afin de
pouvoir faire leur travail. C'est parce qu'elles n'auraient
jamais pense etre obligees de sucer un hom me pour de l'argent.
C'est 9a la rea lite pour les femmes.
There is an approximate 40% unemployment rate for those
under 25 in British Columbia. But they do not break that down
into statistics of how many of those unemployed are women.
We are given the statistics of 1 million unemployed in Canada.
How many of those are women? How many of those are single
parents? There is 43% of all single-parent-headed families who
are women living in poverty in this country. I think that, in
itself, is an indictment of how this country is run and under
•
what economic system women have to live.
Chez les moins de 25 ans, en Colombie-Britannique, Ie taux
de chomage est d'environ 40 p. 100. Mais les statistiques ne
disent pas quelle proportion de ces chomeurs sont des femmes.
Les statistiques disent qu'il y a un million de chomeurs au
Canada. Combien de chomeurs sont des femmes? Combien de
ces femmes sont meres ceIibataires? 43 p. 100 de toutes les
families monoparentales au pays ont a leur tete des femmes
qui vivent dans la pauvrete. Je pense que cela est revelateur de
la fa90n de Ie pays est dirige et de la situation economique des
femmes.
The Chairman: Excuse me. I would like to get Mr. Robinson
up with a fresh question here.
Le president: Excusez-moi. 1'aimerais que M. Robinson
pose une autre question.
Ms Miller: I think it is important that another perspective
on that issue be brought forward.
Mme Miller: Je pense qu'il est important d'avoir un autre
point de vue sur ceUe question.
The Chairman: Go ahead.
r
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p
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2: 29
Le president: Je vous en prie.
Ms Miller: Let there be no misunderstanding: We are
together basically as a group on the political fundamentals of
this. There are of course, as with any group-and certainly
this group is going to be aware of it-sometimes philosophical
differences and so forth. I support everything that this lady has
just said.
Mme Miller: Je tiens a ce que ce soit bien compris: nous
no us sommes regroupees essentiellement dans un but politique.
Comme dans tout autre groupe, il se peut evidemment qu'i1 y
ait parfois des divergences philosophiques. Je suis entieremnt
d'accord avec ce que vient de dire cette dame.
The thing I have a problem with is that, in my many years
of experience, I have encountered women who choose prostitution when, in fact, they do have the skills to make money in
other ways. There is a group of people which Marie is talking
about and, by and large, they are street women. There is also
another group of women whom you do not see on the street,
who are making business decisions on how to make a buck. I
think it is imperative that we understand that they have a right
to make that choice. We cannot treat the problem unless we
are willing to allow people to define their choices for themselves.
Ce qui me preoctupe, apres de nombreuses annees d'experience, c'est que je rencontre des femmes qui choisissent la
prostitution alors qu'elles pourraient faire autre chose pour
gagner de l'argent. Marie vous parle d'un groupe qui est
constitue principalement de femmes de la rue. II y a aussi un
autre groupe de femmes que vous ne voyez pas dans la rue et
qui prennent des decisions commerciales pour faire de I'argent.
II est essentiel de comprendre que ces femmes-Ia ont Ie droit
d'exercer ce choix. Nous ne pouvons pas regler Ie probleme
avant d'accepter que les gens fassent leur choix eux-memes.
The problem, as I understand it, is not a problem of
prostitution; it is a problem of society'S ability to come to
terms with certain basic parts of human nature. There are
women-I have met them-that enjoy their work. I am not
painting a "happy hooker" story because, really, it is no more,
really, a happy hooker than it is a happy politician. Not many
of you are happy. You do a job and you make a choice on what
makes you happiest in the job. It is very important that we
understand their right to make that decision.
Amon sens, Ie probleme n'est pas un probleme de prostitution; c'est un probleme d'inaptitude de la societe a faire face a
certains elements fondamentaux de la nature humaine. II y a
des femrries-et j'en ai rencontre-qui aiment leur travail. Je
ne veux pas vous raconter d'histoires, il n'y a pas plus de
prostituees heureuses qu'il n'y a de politiciens heureux~ Vous
n'etes pas nombreux a etre heureux ici. Vous faites un travail
et vous choisissez ce qui vous satisfait dans votre travail. II est
tres important de reconnaitre que ces femmes ont Ie droit de
prendre ces decisions.
You cannot understand that unless the state is willing to
give up its control over the woman's body, control over
sexuality in this country. It is not against the law, and the
reason why prostitution itself is not against the law is because
the state does understand that it cannot possibly legislate the
reason why two people would interact sexually. They cannot
make a decision of why one man and one woman are going to
Vous ne reussirez pas a comprendre tant que l'Etat ne
renoncera pas a son controle sur Ie corps de la femme, sur la
sexualite au pays. La prostitution n'est pas ilIegale, et si eUe
n'est pas illegale, c'est que I'Etat comprend effectivement qu'il
ne peut etablir dans la loi les raisons qui incitent deux personnes a s'accoupler. L'Etat ne peut pas decider des raisons qui
ameneront un homme et une femme a avoir des rapports
L
• .}V
334
[Text]
get together. It is a complete violation. They know that they
cannot keep that legislation in.
[Translation]
sexuels. C'est impossible. L'Etat sait que la loi ne peut pas
rester telle quelle.
However, they are trying to control us, control our environment, control our decisions by setting up all these arbitrary
conditions around the profession which do nothing but have it
end up in the situation Marie is talking about, where we have
slews of women in the profession who do not want to be there.
They are trapped there because of all these things she has said.
Cependant, il essaie de nous controler, de contrOler notre
environnement et nos decisions en etablissant pour notre
profession toutes sortes de conditions arbitraires qui ne
donnent rien d'autre que la situation dont vient de nous parler
Marie; c'est-a-dire plein de femmes dans la profession qui ne
veulent pas y etre. Elles sont prises la, pour les raisons que
Marie vient de vous exposer.
• 1755
Now, if you allow women to make that choice, if you aIlow
and encourage the police to act on present legislation, which
means if she is a nuisance, it does not matter whether she is a
prostitute or whether she is a salesperson; we all have to follow
the same laws. If she is making a nuisance of herself on the
street, then act on that. Go ahead. You will not have the
problem then. Open doors so she has other ways to go. Let her
start associating. We can lend support to the girls who want
out of the business. We can assist the ones who want to stay in.
We can sit down at meetings together and begin to work cooperatively, respecting each other's concerns.
II faut permettre aux femmes de faire ce choix, il faut
encourager la police a appliquer la loi actuellement en vigueur,
ce qui veut dire que c'est la meme loi pour tout Ie monde; si
quelqu'un cause un desordre, cela n'a pas d'importance qu'il
s'agisse d'une prostituee ou d'une vendeuse. Si la personne
trouble l'ordre public, arretez-Ia pour cela. Faites-Ie. Vous
n'aurez pas de problemes. Ouvrez-Iui les portes pour qu'elle
puisse aller ailleurs. Laissez-lui la liberte d'association. Nous
pouvons venir en aide aux filles qui veulent s'en sortir. Nous
pouvons aider aussi celles qui veulent y rester. Nous pouvons
organiser des reunions et travailler ensemble en tenant compte
des preoccupations de chacune.
This bill is going to give sweeping power to the police. We
are very self-righteous in this country about how well we deal
with social problems, and those poor, miserable South
Americans. .. all they do is they put up these big walls to
cover the big ghettos from the tourists. Weare very selfrighteous about the fact that we do not set up walls to hide
certain social indelicacies. This bill is nothing more than a
legal wall. Show me the difference between us and South
America.
Le projet de loi donnera a la police des pouvoirs considerables. Au Canada, nous nous croyons tres honnetes dans la
fa«on dont nous traitons des problemes sociaux; et ces pauvres
miserables Sud-Americains, eux, se contentent de dresser des
murs pour cacher les enormes ghettos a la vue des touristes.
Nous nous pen sons tres honnetes de ne pas eriger de murs pour
cacher certaines indelicatesses sociales. Ce projet de loi n'est
rien de moins qu'un mur juridique. Dites-moi la difference
entre nous et les Sud-Americains.
You are talking about state control. You are talking about
trying to isolate a group of people and punish them for
something that is not even bloody illegal. You ar.e talking
about select treatment of a constitution. You are talking about
control over my vagina and who enters it. Let us talk turkey.
This is what this is about. This is the bottom line of the thing.
It is about who has a right to enter my vagina and on what
terms. And on the basis of this, you have decided to set up all
of this environment for us. It is illegal in a social environment
that is only serving as a prison. This is a legal wall to isolate us
further in that prison. The alternative is to open doors. Let us
help each other. We will work with you, not against you.
Believe me, we are not masochists.
Vous parlez de controle exerce par I'Etat. Vous tentez
d'isoler un groupe de personnes et de les punir pour quelque
chose qui n'est meme pas illegal. Vous parlez de l'application
selective de la Constitution. Vous voulez controler mon vagin
et qui Ie penetre. Par Ions franchement. C'est de cela qu'il
s'agit. Au bout du compte, c'est bien de cela qu'il s'agit. II
s'agit de determiner qui a Ie droit de p6netrer mon vagin et
dans quelles conditions. Et pour cela, vous avez decide de nous
creer tout cet environnement. C'est illegal de creer un environnement social qui ne sert que de prison. Vous dressez un mur
juridique pour nous isoler encore davantage dans cette prison.
La solution, c'est d'ouvrir les portes. Entraidons-nous. Nous
travaillerons avec vous, pas contre vous. Croyez-moi, nous ne
sommes pas masochistes.
Mr. Robinson: I am sorry I was not able to be here for the
full presentation earlier. I was in another committee, dealing
with the divorce legislation.
M. Robinson: Je m'excuse de ne pas avoir pu etre la pour Ie
debut de la reunion. J'avais un autre comite qui etude la Loi
sur Ie divorce_
First of all, I want to say as a member of this committee
that this is the first time the Justice committee, to my knowledge, has ever actually invited as witnesses prostitutes to
appear before us on a bill dealing specifically with prostitution.
As a member of the committee, I think that is very important.
Pour commencer, en tant que membre du Comite, j'aimerais
dire qu'a rna connaissance, c'est la premiere fois que Ie Comite
de la justice invite des prostituees a comparaitre comme
temoins pour discuter d'un projet de loi qui traite specifiquement de la prostitution. En tant que membre du Comite, je
pense que c'est tres important.
I
.~..
335
,1.9115
22-10-1985
10~'
,~;",ne
I~r"
Projet de loi C-49
[Traduction]
Cathy: Mais pouvez-vous comprendre com bien il est difficile
pour nous de communiquer avec vous? Nous avons passe une
grande partie de la journee a. rediger une declaration pour
plaider notre cause ... ensuite, nous devons nous deguiser.
Nous devons presque supplier pour avoir Ie droit de parler. Si
je retourne a. Toronto et si l'on decouvre mon identite, si l'on
apprend qui je suis, ce que j'ai fait, ce que j'ai dit, ou j'ai ete;
rna vie pourrait etre ruinee a. cause de ce que j'ai fait cet apresmidi.
M. Robinson: Je comprends cela.
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Cathy: That is according to the rules, as opposed to the law.
The rules say, do not talk.
Cathy: Ce n'est pas la loi qui veut cela, ce sont les regles du
milieu. Les regles disent qu'j) ne faut pas parler.
Mr. Robinson: I appreciate what you are saying. On the
other hand, I also think it is a very important thing that is
happening today; that there is this kind of communication,
which has never taken place before.
M. Robinson: Je comprends ce que vous dites. D'un autre
cote, je pense aussi que ce qui arrive aujourd'hui est tres
important; iI y a un genre de communication qu'on n'a jamais
vu auparavant.
Ms Miller: It is only a start, though. Let us understand that.
Every time I go in front of these meetings I am overwhelmed-I am sure Marie has the same response-at the
lack of understanding about the profession itself, the lack of
willingness to delve into what the facts really are and sort them
out. I cannot comprehend how, in good conscience, any group
of people who can represent themselves as a government can
take a vote that requires at least grade 8 level of awareness
when they have indicated so clearly on so many levels that they
are at grade 1 of awareness. How can you possibly pretend
that this is an intelligent and reasonable choice to make as
politicians?
Mme Miller: Mais ce n'est qu'un commencement. II faut
bien Ie comprendre. Chaque fois que je viens a. l'une de ces
reunions, je suis etonnee-et je suis sure que Marya la meme
reaction---devant Ie manque de comprehension vis-a.-vis de
notre profession, devant l'hesitation a. prendre connaissance des
faits et a. les analyser. Je ne comprends pas comment, en toute
bonne foi, un groupe de personnes qui representent Ie gouvernement peuvent ~ prononcer sur une question qui exige au
moins une prise de conscience du huitieme niveau alors qu'elles
viennent de nous montrer bien clairement, sous de nombreux
rapports, que leur prise de conscience n'atteint meme pas Ie
premier' niveau. Comment pouvez-vous pretendre faire un
choix intelligent et raisonnable en tant que policitiens?
It is particularly provoking because as parliamentarians and
politicians you are what is held up to us as the exemplary way
we are supposed to follow. How do you think we feel when
everything about us, everything we stand for, everything we
do--our integrity-is subject to incredible scrutiny, and then
you say to me that this is the way responsible, intelligent,
moral and concerned people act? This is very difficult for us to
swallow.
C'est particulierement choquant parce que les parlementaires et les politiciens que vous etes devraient etre pour nous des
exemples :l. suivre. Comment pensez-vous que nous no us
sen tons lorsque tout ce que nous sommes, tout ce que nous
representons, tout ce que nous faisons-notre integrite-est
profondement remis en question; et vous osez venir me dire que
c'est comme ya qu'agissent les gens responsables, intelligents,
avec des valeurs morales et humaines? C'est tres difficile de
nous faire avaler cela .
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Cathy: Je perdrais mon service d'escorte. Je perdrais mon
magasin. Je perdrais la reputation que j'ai dans mon quartier.
J'irais en prison.
M. Robinson: Je comprends cela.
Mr. Robinson: I appreciate that.
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Cathy: But do you know how difficult it is for us to communicate with you? We spent the better part of today among
ourselves writing a speech that would get up and plead on our
behalf ... to come in disguise. We practically have to beg to be
allowed to speak. If I go back to Toronto and my identity is
revealed, if people there find out who I am, what I have done,
what I have said, where I have been, my life could be ruined
from my activities this afternoon.
Cathy: I would lose my escort service. I would lose my store.
I would lose my reputation in my neighbourhood. I could go to
jail.
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[Texte]
Mr. Robinson: I appreciate that.
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• 1800
Mr. Robinson: I hear what you are saying and I think you
know the position I have taken and my party has taken with
respect to this bill. We are fundamentally opposed to this
legislation. I think it is an approach which reeks of hypocrisy,
quite frankly, because on the one hand we are saying sweep the
streets clean but on the other hand we are saying that there are
no other alternatives. For all of the reasons you have
indicated ...
M. Robinson: Je vous ai bien entendu, et je pense que vous
savez quelle position mon parti et moi-meme avons adoptee
relativement au projet de loi. Nous y sommes radicalement
opposes. Je pense, pour rna part, que cette approche pue
l'hypocrisie, pour parler franchement, car nous disons d'un
cote qu'j) faut nettoyer les rues, et de l'autre qu'i! n'y a pas
d'autre solution. Avec toutes les raisons que vous avez
soulevees ...
Ms Miller: Or that there is no need. The message we get,
the insidious message that is in this is that we do not need to
worry about what the prostitute needs.
afait insidieux, que nous avons decele, c'est qu'il n'y a pas lieu
Mme Miller: Ou qu'i! ne faut pas s'en faire. Le message tout
de s'inquieter des besoins que peuvent avoir les prostituees.
336
2: 32
BiII C-49
[Text]
By the way, I just want to give you an example of a customer I had at one point because this is really what comes to
mind with this so often. The gentleman went on ad infinitum
to me. He was a labour rep of some sort. I am not going to get
into that, but he was in and out of these things that depended
on his honour and his integrity. It was very important to the
man. We spent a number of hours. He gave me half the money
down and we kept it loose: Let us see at the end. We had
dinner. He carried on and on and on about his integrity and
what he wanted to do with the labour movement and so forth,
so I kept it very loose.
Mr. Robinson: My time is limited here. I am sorry ...
22- 10-1985
[Translation]
J'aimerais, en passant, vous raconter une petite anecdote au
sujet d'un de mes clients, car c'est a ce genre de chose qu'on
pense tres souvent dans Ie contexte du probleme present. Ce
monsieur m'a raconte des histoires ad infinitum. II eta it porteparole d'un groupe de travailleurs. Je ne vais pas m'etendre ladessus, rna is iI n'a pas arrete de me parler de son honneur et de
son integrite. Cela semblait etre tres important pour lui. Nous
avons passe plusieurs heures ensemble. II m'a donne la moitie
de la somme convenue et nous sommes restes tres relax. II
avait ete convenu que nous verrions pour Ie reste a la fin. Nous
avons dine ensemble. Et il a continue de me parler, a n'en plus
finir, de son integrite, de ce qu'il voulait faire dans Ie domaine
du syndicalisme, etc. Tout etait tres relax.
M. Robinson: La periode de temps qui m'est allouee est
limitee. Je m'excuse ...
Ms Miller: I kept it very loose. This man at the end of the
night decided he did not have to pay me. This man who had
been bragging about his integrity turned to me and I said: I
thought you were so honourable; I thought you had such
integrity. He said: You do not have to have integrity with a
whore.
Mme Miller: J'ai fait en sorte que tout soit tres relax. La
nuit terminee, il a decide qu'il n'avait pas a me payer. Ce type,
qui n'avait pas arrete de se vanter de son integrite, s'est tourne
vers moi et je lui ai dit: .je vous avais pense honorable; vous et
votre integrite». II m'a repondu: .il n'est pas necessaire d'etre
integre avec une putain .•
This is the message we are getting with this legislation. Do
you really think your message to us is any different? You have
been spending a lot of time and the press spends a lot of time
telling us what we look like to you. It is time you started to see
what you look like to us.
Et c'est Ie meme message qu'on nous transmet ici avec ce
projet de loi. Pensez-vous vraiment que ce que vous nous dites
ici est different de ce que m'a dit ce client? Vous et la presse
avez passe beaucoup de temps a nous dire quelle impression on
vous fait. II serait temps que vous essayiez de voir quel1e
impression vous vous nous faites.
Mr. Robinson: Can I ask Jamie a question specifically as a
woman who, as I understand it, has worked now for some four
years as a prostitute on the street, not in an escort service. Let
us assume that this bill passes, and the reality is that given the
present composition of the House and the position the government is taking it is likely that this bill will in fact be law by the
end of next month. That is the reality that is before this
Parliament. Let us just assume that the bill has passed. What
impact do you, Jamie, see this bill having on you as a prostitute who works the streets of Vancouver?
M. Robinson: J'aimerais poser une question :1 Jamie. Si j'ai
bien compris, vous travaillez de puis quatre ans comme
prostituee dans Ii rue, et non pas pour un service d'escorte.
Supposons que Ie projet de loi soit adopte-et vu la composition actuelle de la Chambre et la position adoptee par Ie
gouvernement, il est tres probable que ce projet de loi sera
adopte d'ici la fin du mois. C'est ~a la realite en ce qui
concerne l'actuel Parlement. Supposons donc que Ie projet de
loi soit adopte. Quelle incidence cela aurait-il sur vous, Jamie,
qui travaillez comme prostituee dans les rues de Vancouver?
Ms Crawford: I am still going to be out there. I will be out
longer hours. I will be running, walking or running; I will not
be able to stand there. I will be jailed, pay a fine. They are
talking about $500 fines. What if I cannot pay a $500 fine? So
I have to go to jail for 30 days.
Mme Crawford: Je serai toujours dans la rue. Je ferai plus
d'heures. Je courrai, je marcherai ou je courrai. Je ne pourrai
pas rester plantee la. On me mettra en prison et je paierai des
amendes. II est question d'amendes de 500$. Que m'arrivera-til si je n'ai pas les moyens de payer l'amende de 500$? On me
mettra en prison pour 30 jours.
I am not a criminal. I am a prostitute. There is a big
difference. I have never been charged in my life with anything,
anything in life.
Je ne suis pas une criminelle. Je suis prostituee. II y a une
enorme difference entre les deux choses. Je n'ai jamais ete
inculpee de quoi que ce soit, jamais.
I have been to college. I have finished school. I have to get
paid somehow. This is my job right now. The decision I have
made is to be a prostitute because this is the only way I can get
enough money to pay my rent, my bills, food, a three-year-old
daughter. I am sorry, but I am not going to go to jail for 30
days and have my daughter God knows where. There is no
way.
Je suis allee au college. J'ai termine mes etudes. II faut que
je gagne rna vie quelque part. C'est cela mon travail :1 l'heure
actuelle. J'ai decide d'etre une prostituee parce que c'est 1:1 la
seule fa~on pour moi de gagner assez d'argent pour payer mon
loyer, mes factures, pour acheter rna nourriture et pour Clever
rna petite fille de trois ans. Je regrette, mais je ne va is pas me
laisser mettre en prison pendant 30 jours pour que rna fille se
retrouve Dieu sa it oU. II n'en est pas question.
Mr. Robinson: So you are going to keep working on the
street?
M. Robinson: Vous allez donc continuer de travailler dans la
rue?
337
22-10-\985
2: 33
Projet de loi C-49
[Texte]
Ms Crawford: Yes, we will just be running, that is all. We
[Traduction 1
will be hiding and running, that is all. All the girls are going to
be on the streets.
Mme Crawford: Oui, il nous faudra courir, voila tout. II
nous faudra nous cacher et courir. Toutes les filles seront dans
la rue.
a-'
Ms Miller: Jumping over garbage cans and trying to get
away from the police.
Mme Miller: II nous faudra sauter par dessus les poubelles
pour echapper a la police.
Il
Ms Crawford: Look at the States. It is illegal in the States,
but you see them still out there. I have worked the States. It is
illegal there. I have been to jail in the States. They are still out
there every God-damned day and night, and we are still going
to be out there in Vancouver and everywhere else.
Mme Crawford: Regardez ce qui se passe aux Etats-Unis.
La prostitution est illegale dans ce pays, mais vous voyez
toujours des prostituees dans la rue. J'ai deja. travaille aux
Etats-Unis. C'est illegal la-bas. On m'a mise en prison aux
Etats-Unis. II n'en demeure pas moins que les prostituees sont
dans la rue jour et nuit, et il en sera de meme a. Vancouver et
partout ailleurs.
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us, probably..-m.osLnLus in fact, have ev
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am one. I wanted to be one. I stIll want to oe~~ to
be one next year, and I know many ladies who feel the same.
We are people who try to do our job in spite of ... Through
the ages, through the cultures, through the countries, we work
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/ conditions; we will continue to work. We will just have to work
;. 'pI« of you, h..ribI, ",.dItIon, aod w, will ","I.Iy do "'.
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Mr. Robinson: One of the arguments ...
M. Robinson: L'un des arguments ...
Cathy: We will have more victims in the process.
j'ai'
Cathy: II faudrait que les gens comprennent que bon nombre
d'entre nous, sans doute la plupart d'entre nous, ont l'intention
de continuer de travailler quoi que vous fassiez. Je vais etre
une prostituee pendant bien des annees encore. C'est un choix .
Je suis prostituee, et c'est ce que je veux etre. Et je voudrais
encore etre prostituee l'an prochain, et je sais qu'un grand
nombre d'autres prostituees sont de mon avis. Nous essayons
de faire notre travail malgre ... a travers les ages, dans tous
les pays et dans toutes les cultures, nous travaillons dans les
conditions qu'on nous impose. Et on nous impose d'horribles
conditions; Mais nous continuons de travailler. II nous faudra
tout simplement composer avec les conditions horribles que
vous nous imposerez, et c'est Ia. notre intention.
Cathy: Les victimes seront plus nombreuses dans Ie nouveau
systeme.
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Ms Crawford: Girls are already getting hurt on the street
right now when money gets tight. In the last three weeks I
know seven women who have been beaten up and raped-seven
women, two of them by the same guy. One woman was seven
months pregnant and this boy is telling her he is going to cut
her baby out and roast it. She is terrified. She tells the police
and they say: Well, that is part of the job, is it not? Well, I am
sorry; we do not need to be treated like that.
Mme Crawford: Les filles se font deja tabasser dans la rue,
parce qu'il y a moins d'argent. Je connais sept femmes qui ont
ete battues et violees au cours des trois dernieres' sernainessept femmes, et deux d'entre elles ont ete attaquees par Ie
meme type. Une de ces femmes etait enceinte de sept mois, et
Ie mec lui a dit qu'il allait decouper son ventre pour en sortir Ie
bebe pour Ie rotir. Elle est terrifiee. Elle Ie dit a. la police et on
lui repond: «93 fait partie du boulot, non? Eh bien, je regrette,
rna is nous ne meritons pas d'etre traitees de la sorte.
Mr. Robinson: I have two other brief questions, if I may,
Mr. Chairman.
M. Robinson: Monsieur Ie president, si vous me Ie permettez, j'aimerais poser encore deux petites questions.
One of the concerns, of course, that has been raised with us
as parliamentarians is the question of residential communities,
of course, and I am addressing specifically residential communities. You are a parent and you can understand the
concerns of people. But I am not talking about prostitutes; it is
customers as much as anything else, with tires and everything
else, in a residential area. This is not something anyone should
have to accept.
L'une des questions qui a ete soulevee aupres de nous,
parlementaires, est celle de la situation des quartiers residentiels. Je veux donc parler ici tout particulierement des quartiers residentiels. Vous avez vous-meme des enfants, vous
pouvez com prendre les gens. Le probleme ne vient pas
tellement des prostituees que de leurs clients, avec Ie crissement des pneus des voitures et tout Ie reste, dans un quartier
residentiel. Ce n'est pas quelque chose qui plait a tout Ie
monde.
• 1805
Now, as you say, you have moved.
Maintenant vous vous etes deplacees.
Ms Crawford: We are in a warehouse now.
Mme Crawford: Nous sommes dans un entrep3t maintenant.
Mr. Robinson: You have moved into a warehouse area, and
you have said the level of violence has increased.
M. Robinson: Vous etes dans Ie quartier des entrep3ts, et,
dites-vous, Ie niveau de violence va augmenter.
338
2: 34
Bill C-49
22- 10-1985
[Text)
Ms Crawford: It has increased, yes, because girls are going
with guys that ... They usually would have the money and
say: Well, I do not have to take this guy; he is a little weird.
But now they need the money; money is getting tight. The
police are so tough that every time we jump in a car we are
getting told to get out.
[Translation)
Mme Crawford: Acause des clients que doivent accepter les
filles ... Normalement, leurs affaires iraient un peu mieux et
elles pourraient choisir leurs clients. Dans les circonstances
actuelles, cependant, elles ont besoin d'argent. Les affaires
vont mal. La police est devenue si stricte que chaque fois que
nous montons a bord d'une voiture, nous recevons tout de suite
l'ordre d'en sortir.
Mr. Robinson: Do you want to explain, though, to the
committee why you were in the residential community in the
first place, because the reason for the political pressure ...
M. Robinson: Vous voulez expliquer au Comite comment iI
se fait que vous vous trouviez au depart dans un quartier
residentiel, parce que les pressions politiques qui se sont
exercees ...
Ms Miller: We have nowhere to go.
Mme Miller: Nous n'avions pas d'autre endroit ou aller.
Mr. Robinson: You have to understand ...
M. Robinson: Vous devez com prendre ...
Cathy: Give us another place to work. Give us lots of places
to work, and we will not be on the streets.
Cathy: Donnez-nous un choix d'endroits ou nous pouvons
faire notre travail, nous ne serons plus dans la rue.
Ms Miller: The only law that was repealed was the soliciting
law which almost opened one door for us, and then the police
decided they were going to engage in this little ploy to let us go
all the way out and pretend they could not do anything about
those things that are genuine nuisances. But you have to start
opening other doors.
Mme Miller: La seule loi qui a ete abrogee a ete la loi sur Ie
racolage, ce qui nous a presque ouvert une porte. Cependant,
la police a employe une petite ruse qui consistait a pretendre
qu'elle ne pouvait rien faire contre Ies vraies nuisances. II faut
que nous ayons plus de possibilites.
We have bawdy house laws that say we cannot work out of
our homes. I was working out of my home at one point. I had
two police officers who had a right under the law to use all
kinds of devices to look through my window and watch me
engaging in sex with gentlemen. Now, prostitution itself is not
an illegal offence. Is there something about my bedroom in
particular that somehow made it corrupt, because that is what
the law is saying to me. I cannot go in my home; I cannot
register as a single merchant. I cannot go down and fill out a
little form as a general business person and file my income tax.
I cannot work freelance. I cannot choose to work out of an
agency; that goes under a procuring law that says it is an
indictable seven-year offence.
La loi sur les maisons closes nous interdit de travailler chez
nous. Je travaillais chez moi a un certain moment. II y avait
deux agents de police qui avaient Ie droit, en vertu de la loi,
d'utiliser toutes sortes de moyens pour me surveiller a travers
les fenetres alors que je faisais l'amour avec des messieurs. II
se trouve que la prostitution elle-meme n'est pas iIIegale. Estce quelque chose qui a a voir avec la chambre a coucher? Pour
l'instant, c'est ce que prevoit la loi. Je ne peux pas travailler
chez moi. Je ne peux pas m'enregistrer comme simple commers:ante. Je ne peux pas signer une petite formule qui dit que je
suis dans les affaires et faire rna declaration d'impOt en
consequence. Je ne peux pas travailler comme pigiste. Je ne
peux pas travailler non plus pour une agence, parce que c'est
quelque chose qui tombe sous Ie coup de la loi sur Ie proxenetis me et qui peut donner lieu a une peine de sept ans.
Mr. Robinson: You are saying to make sure the alternatives
are there to the streets.
M. Robinson: Vous voulez qu'il y ait d'autres possibilites
que la rue.
Ms Miller: I do not know how you people think we would
actually choose, given alternatives, to stand in the rain or in
the freezing cold. Do you really think this is our choice? It just
happens to be the one where the police decided to back off to
try to gain support, so they let us go there. Do you really
believe you can stand on a street corner when it is raining or it
is cold ... ? The guys always know that when it is winter the
prices go down, that you will jump into the car for cheaper
because you are trying to get warm. People are walking by,
poking at you. Do you really think this is our choice?
Mme Miller: Je ne vois pas comment on pouvait penser que
si nous avions d'autres possibilites, nous choisirions de
travailler sous la pluie et Ie gresil. C'est ce que vous croyez? II
.se trouve seulement que la police aun certain moment a decide
de ne rien faire pour essayer d'avoir l'appui des gens. C'est
ainsi qu'elle nous a laissees faire. Vous pensez que c'est
agreable d'attendre au coin d'une rue alors qu'il pleut ou qu'i1
fait tres froid? Les clients eux-memes savent que l'hiver, les
prix baissent. Les filles montent abord des voitures pour moins
cher parce qu'elles veulent se rechauffer. Les clients passent et
tatent les filles. Vous pensez que c'est agreable?
What we are trying to do is to find a way to avoid the
courts. We are trying to find the path of least resistance with
which to conduct our business. Now, if you give us other paths
of least resistance, of course we are going to go there. What do
you think, that if you decriminalize we will all run out in
subzero weather to work on the streets?
Nous, ce que nous voulons, c'est eviter de passer devant Ie
juge. Nous essayons de trouver Ie moyen Ie plus facile de nous
adonner a notre activite. Si vous etes prets a nous donner ce
moyen facile, nous allons certainement quitter la rue. Si vous
decriminalisez cette activite, vous pensez vraiment que· nous
allons rester nous geler dans la rue?
339
22-10-1985
[TexteJ
The Chairman: Mr. Robinson, thank you for your questions.
[Traduction]
Le president: Merci de vos questions, monsieur Robinson.
Before we ask for another questioner, Cathy, I believe you
wanted to say something to Mr. Robinson's last question.
Avant de ceder la parole a quelqu'un d'autre, je pense que
Cathy avait quelque chose a ajouter en reponse a la derniere
question de M. Robinson.
Cathy: Again, when I am saying "escort" over and over
again, please understand that in very basic and deep ways we
are united here.
Cathy: Je parle souvent de <services d'escorte., mais vous
devez com prendre que nous sommes solidaires.
Mme Miller: Oui.
Ms Miller: Yes.
I
2: 35
Projet de loi C-49
Cathy: We are prostitutes. Whether we are street or bar or
house or apartment, we are one in that sense. But from my
point of view, because what I know is what I have been doing,
I find it very wrenching that I cannot practise this business. I
cannot be an entrepreneur. This country is capitalist; it
rewards entrepreneurs. It rewards the successful business
person. It rewards hard work; it rewards thought and care. I
cannot conduct my business according to the same guidelines
that my neighbourhood hardware store can use.
Cathy: Nous sommes des prostituees, que nous travaillions
dans la rue, dans des bars, des maisons ou des appartements.
Nous for mons un seul groupe. En ce qui me concerne, a la
lumiere de mon experience, j'ai bien du mal a comprendre
pourquoi je ne peux pas exercer mon metier. On m'interdit
d'etre un entrepreneur. Normalement, ce pays est capitaliste, il
voit d'un bon oeil les entrepreneurs. II recompense les personnes qui ont Ie sens de I'initiative et qui travaillent fort. Je ne
peux pas mener une entreprise au meme titre que Ie proprietaire de la quincaiUerie qui se trouve au coin de rna rue.
For instance, around the credit cards; it is a very, very
horrible situation that we have to deal with on a daily basis.
Here is how it works. I have credit card facilities for American
Express, Mastercard and VISA. If I send out two ladies to see
two gentlemen, they have a stolen card. When I phone in for
authorization, VISA does not know yet that it is stolen.
Par ex empie, nous avons tous les jours des problemes avec
les cartes de credit. Je vous explique comment. J'accepte les
cartes de credit American Express, Mastercard et VISA.
Lorsque j'envoie deux filles voir deux messieurs, il se peut
qu'ils aient une carte de credit volee. Au moment Oil je
demande l'autorisation, VISA ne sait peut-etre pas encore que
la carte a ete volee.
I
• 1810
s
.I
Two women go out there and they have sex with these guys.
These guys have offered to pay a certain amount of money.
Two days later VISA phones me and says: Oh well, listen; this
was a stolen credit card; can you give us details; who was this
person? He came into, in my case, my store. What did he buy?
What did he want? What is the story here? Immediately I am
in a position, if I tell VISA it is an escort service ... bam! I
lose VISA; which is 75% of my business.
Deux femmes se rendent sur les lieux et ont des relations
sexuelles avec ces hommes. I1s ont offert de payer un certain
montant. Deux jours plus tard VISA m'appeIle et me dit:
ecoutez, c'etait une carte de credit volee. Pouvez-vous nous
donner des details? Qui etait ceUe personne? Dans mon cas,
ceUe personne s'est rendue dans mon magasin. Qu'a-t-elle
achete? Que voulait-elle? Que s'est-il passe? A ce moment-la,
si je dis a VISA qu'il s'agit d'un service d'escorte ... bourn! Je
perds VISA; cela represente 75 p. 100 de mes transactions.
I would like to see the people who have stolen the credit card
brought to justice. I would like to see that women who work
with me are somehow taken care of for this. They are out the
money, of course. They do not get paid for this. There is no
question about that. The girls do not get paid. I lose my VISA.
The guys who stole the cards get away with it, for lots of
different reasons.
Je voudrais bien que les personnes qui ont vole la carte de
credit soient amenees devant les tribunaux. Je voudrais aussi
que les femmes qui travaillent avec moi soient protegees dans
ces cas. Evidemment, elles ne re~oivent pas d'argent. Elles ne
sont pas payees pour tout cela. Cela ne fait aucun doute. Les
filles ne sont pas payees dans ces cas. Si je perds rna carte
VISA, ceux qui me I'ont volee pourront s'en tirer impunement,
pour beaucoup de raisons.
One of them is I am not in a position where I can even share
with VISA the information I know. I might be able to say to
VISA that they look like this, they look like so, they came
from here, they were staying at the Prince Hotel in room 1033.
I cannot say that. I have to make up stories. It is a very
unfortunate thing.
L'une de ces raisons, c'est que dans rna position, je ne peux
partager avec I'administration de VISA les renseignements que
je possede. Je pourrais leur dire que ce client avait telle ou telle
apparence, qu'il ressemblait a quelqu'un d'autre, qu'il etait
originaire de tel endroit, qu'il etait inscrit a I'hOtei Prince,
chambre 1033. Je ne peux dire toutes ces choses. Je dois
inventer des situations. Cela est tres malheureux.
At the same time, these credit card companies, as well as
BeIl Canada, are making a fortune from us. I said Bell Canada
before: downtown Toronto yeIlow pages, $500,000 a year.
Pendant ce temps, ces societes de cartes de credit, de meme
que Bell Canada, font une fortune sur notre dos. J'ai parle de
Bell Canada auparavant: les pages jaunes pour Ie centre-ville
340
2: 36
Bill C-49
[Text]
Again, it is one more social situation in which we really are
victimized.
22-10-1985
[Translation]
de Toronto--500,OOO$ par annee. Voila une autre situation
sociale ou nous sommes en fait des victimes.
Ms Miller: To carryon from what she is saying about the
instance of the stolen credit card, it is not even that any more.
What I am starting to notice is that customers are becoming
aware. They know all they have to do is call up and say: I did
not do that; they are a bunch of whores trying to rip me off.
We get cut; we get punished. In any other business there are
civil courts with which to deal with all these matters. We do
not have those alternatives in our business.
Mme Miller: Pour poursuivre sur ce qu'elle disait a propos
des cartes de credit volees, la situation a change maintenant.
Je remarque de plus en plus que les clients deviennent ruses. I1s
savent qu'ils ont seulement a appeler et a dire: je n'ai pas fait
cela, cette bande de putains essaient de m'escroquer. Alors
nous perdons notre affiliation; nous sommes punis. Pour les
autres types d'entreprises, il y a des tribunaux civils pour
regler toutes ces questions. Dans notre domaine, nous n'avons
pas cette possibili teo
The customers are getting very wise to it. We get calls left
and right. They put it on their credit card. ;They call up
afterwards and we get beaten. We lose our standing. We have
to go another way about it. What we are talking about is
incredible exploitation. You have a banker who sits in front of
you and says: I know what it is; you have been a good customer; we have made money off you; we have no personal
feelings against you; we know the guy is lying; but I am sorry,
we cannot honour it, even though we authorized it.
Les clients deviennent de plus en plus ruses. Nous recevons
des appels a gauche et a droite. I1s paient avec leurs cartes de
credit. Apres, ils nous denoncent et nous sommes battues.
Nous perdons notre affiliation. Nous devons trouver une autre
fa~on de faire. Nous assistons ici a une incroyable exploitation.
II y a ce banquier assis devant vous qui vous dit: je sais de quoi
il s'agit; vous avez ete une bonne cliente; nous avons realise des
profits grace a vous; nous n'avons rien contre vous personnellement; nous savons que ce client ment; mais je suis d6s0le, nous
ne pouvons honorer cette facture, meme si nous avons autorise
la transaction.
The street girls can so easily be integrated into so many
other ways of working, and want to. Because there is the
procuring law... let me show you something with the
agencies. There are a lot of street girls who want to get into the
agencies. They cannot. The decent agencies that are not
exploitive are so paranoid because they are up for indictable
offences that when they call in, they are afraid to trust the girl.
So they tell her no. So then the girl ends up going to another
one, which has no scruples, does not mind exploiting her; in
essence, the traditional pimp. She is exploited left and right.
They make money off her and then spit "her back out on the
street.
Les filles de rue peuvent etre tres facilement integrees dans
d'autres domaines de travail, et elles Ie desirent. Parce qu'il y a
cette disposition sur Ie proxenetisme ... laissez-moi vous dire
quelque chose a propos des agences. II y a beaucoup de filles
de rue qui veulent travailler pour une agence. Elles ne Ie
peuvent pas. Les bonnes agences qui n'exploitent pas leurs
employees craignentrtellement d'etre accusees d'avoir commis
un acte criminel que, lorsque ces filles se presentent, on craint
de leur faire confiance. On leur refuse donc l'acces a l'agence.
La fille s'adresse donc a une autre agence qui n'a pas de
scrupule et qui l'exploite sans hesitation; il s'agit ici essentiellement du souteneur traditionnel. Elle est exploitee de toutes
sortes de fa~ons. On realise un profit grace a elle puis on la
rejette dans la rue.
If there were not the paranoia, if we were not so afraid to
work together, these street girls could call up and we could say,
sure, there is no jail sentence, there is no seven-year indictable;
I am a good manager. You have to realize that we are like any
other group. Some of us like business and are good managers
and others are not and do not even want to be bothered. We
are like anyone else.
S'il n'y avait pas cette paranoIa, si nous n'avions pas si peur
de travailler ensemble, ces filles de rue se presenteraient et
nous pourrions dire: bien sur, il n'y a pas de peine de prison, il
n'est pas question d'un acte criminel punissable de sept ans de
penitencier; je suis une bonne gestionnaire. Vous devez vous
rendre compte que nous sommes comme tous les autres
groupes. Certains d'entre nous aiment les affaires et sont de
bonnes gestionnaires, alors que d'autres Ie sont moins et ne
veulent pas etre embetees. Nous sommes comme n'importe qui
d'autre.
Cathy: It would be nice if we could find our roles in that
context among one another. It would also be nice ...
Cathy: Ce serait bien si nous pouvions determiner notre role
dans ce contexte, les unes avec les autres. Ce sera it egalement
bien si ...
Ms Miller: Public freedom.
Cathy: I have felt for a long time if you would allow us, we
would produce things like standards of professionalism. We
would. Doctors do it. Dentists do it. All kinds of professions do
it. So would we. We would be more answerable. There is such
an unfortunate thing happening, the way the laws are interpreted now. I will give you an example.
Mme Miller: La liberte publique.
Cathy: Je crois depuis longtemps que, si vous nous Ie
permettiez, nous pourrions meme etablir des normes de
professionnalisme. Nous y arriverions. Les medecins I~ font.
Les dentistes Ie font aussi. II y a des normes dans toutes sortes
de professions. II en serait de meme pour nous. Nous serions
plus responsables. 11 se passe des choses tres malheureuses en
341
22-10-1985
Projet de loi C-49
2: 37
[Traduction]
[Texte]
raison de la fa<;on dont les lois sont interpretees maintenant.
Permettez-moi de vous donner un exemple.
In Toronto a major escort service was busted in April. I
knew all those people. As I said before, there is the law and
then there are the rules. The rules are very clear. If you make
one mistake, you are finished. They can bust me any time they
want, on any given day, no problem.
A Toronto, en avril dernier, il y a eu une descente dans un
important service d'escorte. Je connaissais toutes ces personnes. Comme je I'ai dit auparavant, d'une part il y a la loi, puis
il y ales regles. Les regles sont tres claires. Si vous faites une
erreur, c'est finL On peut m'arreter a n'importe que I moment,
cela ne presente pas de probleme.
If there are 200 agencies in Toronto and basically two
morality officers, obviously they are not going to go out and
bust 150 agencies. But they do bust. Who do they bust?
Obviously, there is a criterion there. The criterion is: Make one
mistake, you are finished. This particular agency had a
problem. They were taking deposits from the women and
maybe not returning them as they should have. There were
some indiscretions that I personally feel, were we allowed to
rule ourselves, if we had our own board of inquiry, we could
have dealt with as an internal matter among ourselves.
S'il y a 200 agences a Toronto et qu'il y a essentiellement
deux agents de la moralite, ils ne vont pas faire une descente
dans 150 agences. Cependant il y a des descentes. Pourquoi?
De toute evidence, il y a un critere icL Void ce critere: si vous
faites une erreur, vous etes cuits. Dans Ie cas de cette agence
en particulier, il y avait un probleme. On acceptait des depOts
des femmes, peut-etre sans toujours les retourner comme il
aurait fallu. II ya eu des indiscretions qui, a mon avis, auraient
pu etre reglees entre nous si on nous permettait de reglementer
notre propre secteur, si nous avions notre propre commission
d'enquete.
.
• 1815
However, these. girls became disgruntled and signed
complaints with morality. Morality finished this agency
forever and the two owners ... I know them very well personally. Their lives are just devastated, for one of them, probably
for the rest of her life. But she has had to deal with all of this,
not because of a one on one thing that she did regarding the
deposits, that is not even what is being dealt with in the court.
They say, you made a mistake with the deposits, we are going
to nail you for living off the avails, which of course they knew
all along, as they know about all of us. Break the rule, do
something wrong over here, we will get you here. It takes one
signed complaint. I have sat with the detectives of morality, I
have talked with them about it and they are quite cheerful
about it. Break a rule, that is it, you are finished.
I think Marie wanted to say something.
e
Mr. Robinson: I asked a question about 15 minutes ago and
we have sort of got into something else. But my time has
expired and I want to thank the witnesses.
Cathy: I am sorry.
e
Ii
Mr. Robinson: No, no, I appreciate what you are saying.
The Chairman: Thank you.
It
Ie
Ie
IlS
~n
Cependant, ces fiUes sont devenues mecontentes et eIles ont
fait des plaintes a la mora lite. Les agents de l'escouade de la
moralite ont mis fin a cette agence pour toujours et les deux
propri6taires ... Je les connais tres bien personnellement. Elles
sont devastees, et l'une d'elles ne s'en remettra probablement
jamais. Mais elle a dfi faire face a tous ces ennuis non pas
parce qu'elle a personnellement tripote dans les depOts; ce n'est
meme pas la question qui est examinee par la cour. lIs disent:
si vous faites une elreur avec ces depots, nous allons vous avoir
sur l'accusation de vivre du produit de la prostitution; evidemment, ils savaient tout cela deja ils connaissent chacune d'entre
nous. Si vous ne respectez pas Ie reglement, si vous faites une
seule erreur, nous vous aurons. II suffit d'une seule plainte
signee. J'ai discute avec les detectives de la moralite. J'ai parle
de ces questions avec eux et ils sont tres directs. Si nous
enfreignons un reglement, <;a y est, c'en est fini de nous.
Je pense que Marie voulait dire quelque chose.
M. Robinson: J'ai pose une question il y a environ 15
minutes et nous avons digresse vers autre chose. Mon temps est
ecoule, et je desire remercier les temoins.
Cathy: Je suis desolee.
M. Robinson: Je vous en prie. J'apprecie ce que vous avez
dit.
Le president: Merci.
I have no members of the committee on my list. Would you
like to take it? It is a Conservative turn.
Je n'ai aucun nom d'inscrit sur rna liste. Voulez-vous
prendre la parole? C'est Ie tour d'un Conservateur.
Mrs. Collins: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, as my
colleague, Mr. Robinson said, I am sorry I was not here
earlier. We were dealing with another piece of legislation in
another committee.
Mme Collins: Oui, merci, monsieur Ie president. Comme Ie
disait M. Robinson, je suis desolee de n'avoir pas ete ici plus
tot. Nous discutions d'une autre mesure legislative dans Ul1
autre comite.
I have found this last hour certainly very revealing and very
helpful in terms of trying to understand the issues. I think, as
the Minister said when he came before the committee a couple
of weeks ago, we are not pretending in this particular piece of
Les deliberations de cette derniere heure sont tres revelatrices et el1es m'ont ete utiles pour comprendre les problemes en
cause. Comme Ie disait Ie ministre lors de son temoignage
devant ce Comite it y a quelques semaines, nous ne pretendons
342
22-10-1985
Projet de loi C-49
2: 37
[Traduction]
[Texte]
raison de la fa~on dont les lois sont interpretees maintenant.
Permettez-moi de vous donner un exemple.
In Toronto a major escort service was busted in April. I
knew all those people. As I said before, there is the law and
then there are the rules. The rules are very clear. If you make
one mistake, you are finished. They can bust me any time they
want, on any given day, no problem.
A Toronto, en avril dernier, il y a eu une descente dans un
important service d'escorte. Je connaissais toutes ces personnes. Comme je l'ai dit auparavant, d'une part il y a la loi, puis
il y ales regles. Les regles sont tres claires. Si vous faites une
erreur, c'est fini. On peut m'arrcter a n'importe quel moment,
cela ne presente pas de probleme.
If there are 200 agencies in Toronto and basically two
morality officers, obviously they are not going to go out and
bust 150 agencies. But they do bust. Who do they bust?
Obviously, there is a criterion there. The criterion is: Make one
mistake, you are finished. This particular agency had a
problem. They were taking deposits from' the women and
maybe not returning them as they should have. There were
some indiscretions that I personally feel, were we allowed to
rule ourselves, if we had our own board of inquiry, we could
have dealt with as an internal matter among ourselves.
S'il y a 200 agences a Toronto et qu'il y a essentiellement
deux agents de la moralite, i1s ne vont pas faire une descente
dans 150 agences. Cependant il y a des descentes. Pourquoi?
De toute evidence, il y a un critere ici. Voici ce critere: si vous
faites une erreur, vous etes cuits. Dans Ie cas de cette agence
en particulier, il y avait un probleme. On acceptait des depOts
des femmes, peut-ctre sans toujours les retourner comme il
aurait fallu. II y a eu des indiscretions qui, a mon avis, auraient
pu etre reglees entre nous si on nous permettait de reglementer
notre propre secteur, si nous avions notre propre commission
d'enqucte.
.
:s
IS
.1...
• 1815
However, these girls became disgruntled and signed
complaints with morality. Morality finished this agency
forever and the two owners ... I know them very well personally. Their lives are just devastated, for one of them, probably
for the rest of her life. But she has had to deal with all of this,
not because of a one on one thing that she did regarding the
deposits, that is not even what is being dealt with in the court.
They say, you made a mistake with the deposits, .we are going
to nail you for living off the avails, which of course they knew
all along, as they know about all of us. Break the rule, do
something wrong over here, we will get you here. It takes one
signed complaint. I have sat with the detectives of morality, I
have talked with them about it and they are quite cheerful
about it. Break a rule, that is it, you are finished.
a'
,rs
J.U;
t
I think Marie wanted to say something.
:f
Mr. Robinson: I asked a question about 15 minutes ago and
we have sort of got into something else. But my time has
expired and I want to thank the witnesses.
ii
de
lUS
Ii
TIe
Cathy: I am sorry.
Mr. Robinson: No, no, I appreciate what you are saying.
The Chairman: Thank you.
k
d~
-"'I:
,f--
<Jns
; e-
Je pense que Marie voulait dire quelque chose.
M. Robinson: J'ai pose une question il y a environ 15
minutes et nous avons digresse vers autre chose. Mon temps est
ecoule, et je desire remercier les temoins.
Cathy: Je suis desolee.
I
~ui
ILent
Cependant, ces filles sont devenues mecontentes et elles ont
fait des plaintes a la moralite. Les agents de l'escouade de la
mora lite ont mis fin a cette agence pour toujours et les deux
proprietaires ... Je les connais tres bien personnellement. Elles
sont devastees, et l'une d'elles ne s'en remettra probablement
jamais. Mais elk a dfi faire face a tous ces ennuis non pas
parce qu'elle a personnellement tripote dans les depOts; ce n'est
meme pas la question qui est examinee par la cour. Ils disent:
si vous faites une 6rreur avec ces depOts, nous allons vous avoir
sur l'accusation de vivre du produit de la prostitution; evidemment, ils savaient tout cela deja ils connaissent chacune d'entre
nous. Si vous ne respectez pas Ie reglement, si vous faites une
seule erreur, nous VollS aurons. II suffit d'une seule plainte
signee. J'ai discute avec les detectives de la moralite. J'ai parle
de ces questions avec eux et ils sont tres directs. Si nous
enfreignons un reglement, ~a y est, c'en est fini de nous.
M. Robinson: Je vous en prie. J'apprecie ce que vous avez
dit.
Le president: Merci.
I have no members of the committee on my list. Would you
like to take it? It is a Conservative turn.
Je n'ai aucun nom d'inscrit sur rna liste. Voulez-vous
prendre la parole? C'est Ie tour d'un Conservateur.
Mrs. Collins: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, as my
colleague, Mr. Robinson said, I am sorry I was not here
earlier. We were dealing with another piece of legislation in
another committee.
Mme Collins: Oui, merci, monsieur Ie president. Comme Ie
disait M. Robinson, je suis desolee de n'avoir pas ete ici plus
tot. Nous discutions d'une autre mesure legislative dans un
autre comite.
I have found this last hour certainly very revealing and very
helpful in terms of trying to understand the issues. I think, as
the Minister said when he came before the committee a couple
of weeks ago, we are not pretending in this particular piece of
Les deliberations de cette derniere heure sont tres reveIatrices et elles m'ont ete utiles pour comprendre les problemes en
cause. Comme Ie disait Ie ministre lors de son temoignage
devant ce Comite il y a quelques semaines, nous ne pretendons
343
2: 38
Bill C-49
22-10-1985
[Text]
legislation to deal with the problem of prostitution or how our
society is going to address that.
[Translation]
pas que cette mesure legislative regie Ie probleme de la
prostitution ou la fas:on dont notre societe y fera face.
He is planning to bring forward some other legislation or
some other proposals early in the new year. Hopefully you will
come back at that time and we can look at a lot of the issues
you have brought up this afternoon. I agree with you that as a
society we have a responsibility to look at the reasons women
choose prostitution. Some women choose prostitution because
of economic reasons and not because they wish to. There
should be alternatives. I also am sympathetic to your concerns
about the need to communicate. I was not aware that that was
a problem.
II a I'intention de presenter d'autres mesures legislatives ou
d'autres propositions au debut de la prochaine annee. J'espere
que vous pourrez nous revenir a ce moment-Ia et que nous
pourrons etudier plusieurs des questions que vous avez
soulevees cet apres-midi. Je reconnais comme vous qu'en tant
que societe nous avons la responsabilite d'etudier les raisons
pour lesquelles certaines femmes choisissent la prostitution.
Certaines d'entre elles Ie font pour des raisons economiques, et
non pas parce qu'e\les Ie souhaitent. Elles devraient disposer
d'autres possibilites. Vous vous preoccupez aussi du besoin de
communiquer, et je comprends bien cela. Je ne savais pas qu'il
y avait la un probleme.
The bill we are now dealing with has come about because, as
with so much legislation, there is a conflict of rights. You
talked today about your rights, as individuals, as women, but
we are faced with the concerns of other property owners in
residential areas who feel their rights have been severely
infringed by activities that have gone on and interfered with
their ability to have quiet enjoyment of their land.
Le projet de loi a l'etude a ete propose parce que, comme
c'est Ie cas de beaucoup de lois, il ya un conflit entre les droits.
Aujourd'hui, vous avez parle de vos droits comme personne,
comme femme, mais nous devons egalement tenir compte des
preoccupations d'autres proprietaires, dans des zones residentielles, qui croient que leurs droits sont bafoues par les activites
que vous connaissez; ils pensent etre empeches de jouir
pleinement de leurs biens, dans la tranquillite.
As you know, there is incredible pressure-from what I
understand the public opinion really supports doing something
to deal with the issue of this kind of situation in residential
neighbourhoods. If it had not been in residential neighbourhoods, I do not think we would be faced with having to have
this interim piece of legislation. We will be hearing over the
next week or couple of weeks representations from groups and
organizations which feel very strongly that we need to have
legislation to protect the rights of those residential property
owners. Then, ultimately, we as politicians are going to have to
decide how we will deal with that.
Comme vous Ie savez, it y a une pression incroyable-sauf
erreur, i'opinion publique favorise vraiment une initiative pour
regler ce genre de situation dans les quartiers residentiels. S'il
ne s'agissait de quartiers residentiels, je ne crois pas nous
aurions a etudier cette mesure legislative interimaire. Au cours
des prochaines semaines, nous entendrons les exposes de
groupes et d'organisations qui croient fermement que nous
devons legiferer pour proteger les lois de ces proprietaires
residentiels. Par apres, en derniere analyse, c'est nous les
politiciens qui devrons decider des mesures a prendre.
Ms Miller: This bill lays out legislation to protect their
rights but you are willing to totally disregard ours. Now, is
that not a little ... ? If what we are doing is wrong, how can
what you are talking about be right? If it is wrong for us to
disregard the rights, as it is perceived, at least, of the residents,
then how do you justify the same wrong that is in the form of
Bill C-49? Bill C-49 offers as an alternative the very thing that
you say you do not want to do and are opposed to; that is, to
infringe on anyone's rights. As parliamentarians, each citizen
is to be given equal recognition and consideration in this. As
prostitutes-{)f course, there are not that many of us-but if
you include the customers, if you include women that will be,
as Marie was pointing out, mistakenly harassed and you start
including all of that, it is either right or it is wrong.
Mme Miller: Ce projet de loi contient des dispositions pour
proteger leurs droits, mais vous etes disposes a ignorer
totalement les notres. Cela n'est-il pas un peu ... ? Si ce que
nous faisons est mal, comment pouvons-nous parler de droits?
Si nous avons tort de ne pas respecter les droits des residentsdu moins, c'est ce qu'on croit que nous faisons-comment
pouvez-vous justifier de faire la meme chose par l'intermediaire du projet de loi C-49? Ce projet de loi offre comme
solution de rechange exactement la meme chose que vous
affirmez ne pas vouloir faire et a laquelle vousvous opposez,
c'est-a-dire ne pas respecter les droits de quiconque. Les
parlementaires doivent s'assurer que tous les citoyens sont
traites egalement dans cette affaire. Pour les prostitueesevidemment, nous ne sommes pas si nombreuses-mais si on
compte les clients, si I'on compte les femmes qui, comme Ie
disait Marie, seront harcelees par erreur et si i'on fait Ie total
de tout cela, c'est une question de bien ou de mal.
• 1820
Cathy: Exactly.
Ms Miller: And how many letters you get should not bear
upon that.
Cathy: Exactement.
Mme Miller: Et Ie nombre de lettres que vous recevez n'a
rien a voir.
344
22-10-1985
Projet de loi C-49
[Texte]
Mrs. Collins: Yes. I can assure you that ... Well, again,
some of my colleagues sitting here today, we have just
completed our work on the equality rights committee and those
were the kinds of issues that we were continually addressing. It
was not majoritarian views. It was basic rights of Canadian
citizens that we had to ensure that we protected. This is a
different issue you are faced with, but I think there are some
similarities.
IS
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[Traduction]
Mme Collins: Oui .. Je puis vous assurer que ... Avec
certains de mes collt!gues autour de cette table, nous venons
tout juste de completer notre travail au sein du Cornia: sur les
droits a l'egalite, et nous discutions de questions semblables
continuellement. Nous n'avons pas entendu que la voix de la
majorite. Nous devions nous assurer que les droits fondamentaux des citoyens canadiens soient proteges. La situation a
laquelle vous faites face est differente, mais je pense qu'il y a
des similitudes.
I just want to perhaps ask one question and you may have
addressed this earlier. But I was not aware that this bill would
infringe on the ability of escort businesses to give services.
Je voudrais vous poser une question a laquelle vous avez
peut-etre repondu plus tot. Je ne savais pas que ce projet de loi
nuirait aux services qu'offrent les agences d'escorte.
Cathy: It is not going to hurt us immediately. I almost get
the feeling-and maybe it is the morbid pait of my naturebut I almost have the feeling in a sinister kind of way that it
has been worked out that way. I think at the beginning we are
not going to have more harassment. We are obviously, come
the next season in the yellow pages-Bell takes in anybody
who has a dollar in their hand and can produce a half-way
discreet ad-if we have 150 want ads in downtown Toronto
now, then by next season we are going to have 350. I can
barely pay those phone bills. I mean, how many people in this
room could handle a phone bill of $2000 a month?
Cathy: L'effet negatif ne se fera pas sentir immediatement.
rai presque I'impression-et c'est peut-etre Ie cote noir de rna
nature-mais Tai presque I'impression que cela est intentionnel. A mon avis, au tout debut, nous ne serons pas plus
harcelees. Nous sommes evidemment... Dans la prochaine
edition des pages jaunes-Bell accepte l'argent de tout
annonceur qui peut produire une publicite a peu pres discrete-s'il y a 150 annonces dans les pages jaunes du centreville de Toronto maintenant, il y en aura 350 la prochaine fois.
J'arrive a peine a payer ces comptes de teJephone. Combien de
personnes dans cette salle pourraient payer un compte de
teJephone de 2,000$ par mois?
Ms Miller: I would just like to say, right now, the fact that
escort is not being bothered-the police are not going after
them-is gratuitous, because it does not fit into their political
lobbying. This bill, however, will give them sweeping powers.
As I understand it, as I understand police in all of my experience-and it is many years of experience with police, by the
way-what is going to happen here is, when I go to the
neighborhoOd m,eetings, the police stand up there and they say:
Okay. We are not interested in escorts. We are not worried
about them. All we want to do is clean up your neighbourhood.
And the citizens, of course, buy that.
Mme Miller: Permettez-moi de preciser immediatement
ceci: Ie fait que les services d'escorte ne soient pas harceles est
tout a fa,it accidentel. Cela ne cadre pas avec Ie lobbying
politique des services de police. Cependant, ce projet de loi leur
accordera des pol'lvoirs considerables. J'ai une longue exp(:"
rience des services de police et, d'apres moi, lorsque j'assisterai
aux reunions de quartier, les policiers se presenteront et diront:
D'accord. Les services d'escorte ne nous interessent pas. Ce
n'est pas une preoccupation. Tout ce que nous voulons, c'est
nettoyer votre quartier. Et bien sur, les citoyens les croiront.
When police, however, get their power back, as with this
bill, what in essence will happen is that we are going to be
divided. It will be much more difficult to work politically. We
will become invisible. The press will disappear. Parliamentarians will say: Well, problem solved. We will not be able to buy
press time. The police at that point will know this and they are
going to say: Okay. Now that nobody is listening, let us go get
them guys. That is the way the police work. Escort wi11 then go
in. They will be prime targets once it reaches that point.
Because they are advertising, the police will go in. The girls in
escort are under indictable offence, ·unlike misdemeanors on
the street. They will get the heavies.
Cependant, lorsque la police retrouvera ses pouvoirs, com me
Ie permettra ce projet de loi, ce qui se produira, c'est qu'essentiellement, nous serons partages. II sera beaucoup plus difficile
de travailler au niveau politique. Nous deviendrons invisibles.
Les articles de journaux disparaitront. Les parlementaires
diront alors: Eh bien, Ie probleme est resolu. Nous ne serons
pas en mesure d'acheter de la publicite dans les journaux.
Alors, sachant cela, la police dira: D'accord, maintenant que
personne n'ecoute, allons leur faire la vie dure. Voila comment
la police fonctionne. Les services d'escorte seront alors
interrompus. lis feront une belle cible quand on en arrivera la.
Parce que ces services font de la publicite, la police interviendra. Les filles travaillant pour une agence d'escorte commettent un acte criminel, ce qui n'est pas I'equivalent de la
mauvaise conduite dans la rue. La situation deviendra critique.
Cathy: Yes. And the thing is that although we can sit here
and know at this point that a year down the road we are going
to have violence, the police certainly know that. You people
know it too. You know it too, because you can hear the facts.
Okay, give a year down the road. Give us our violence and
then the police will have reason to finish us all.
Cathy: Oui. Et Ie fait est que, meme si nous pouvons des
main tenant pr6dire que dans un an il y aura de la violence, les
services de police en sont certainement conscients. Vous aussi,
d'ailleurs. Vous Ie savez parce que vous pouvez prendre
connaissance des faits. Pensez a I'an prochain. II y aura eu
violence et la police sera alors justifiee de mettre fin a nos
activites.
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345
Bill C-49
2:40
[Text}
The Chairman: Madam Bourgault would like to get a
supplementary question in here, I believe. Is that all right with
you Mrs. Collins?
22-10-\985
[Translation]
Le president: Mme Bourgault voudrait maintenant poser une
question supplementaire, je crois. Etes-vous d'accord, madame
Collins?
Mme Collins: D'accord. Merci, monsieur Ie president.
Mrs. Collins: That is fine. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Robinson: I am anxious to put a supplementary on the
last question.
M. Robinson: Je suis impatient de poser une question
supplementaire sur Ie meme sujet.
Ms Miller: And Marie has been trying to say something as
well.
Mme Miller: Et Marie essaie de dire quelque chose
egalement.
The Chairman: Marie?
Le president: Marie?
Julie: Yes, I would like to speak. My name is Julie.
Julie: Oui, je voudrais prendre la parole. Mon nom est Julie.
The Chairman: Julie. I am sorry.
Le president: Julie. Je suis desole.
Julie: I work out of my home through the companion ads in
the local newspapers. As a definition of a public place here, I
can see that a companion's ad would be a public place, an
invitation expressed or implied. If I invited someone to my
home, which I do, I guess that would be a public place.
Julie: Je travaille chez moi apres avoir place des petites
annonces sous la rubrique .Rencontres. dans les journaux
locaux. D'aprcs la definition de lieu public qu'on trouve ici, je
constate qu'une petite annonce serait un lieu public, et qu'il y
aurait invitation expresse ou implicite. Si j'invite quelqu'un
chez moi, ce que je fais, j'imagine que cela serait considere
comme un lieu public.
Bill C-49 will affect that aspect of prostitution as well. I do
not work escort. I do not work in other ways, just through the
companion ads and that will be affected as well. I will have to
go to cheaper publications. The money will go down. This did
happen. I used to advertise in The Globe and Mail. Pierre
Burton talked about that on his radio show; and then no one
was allowed to advertise in The Globe and Mail. We went to
the The Toronto Star. The prices went down. All the ads were
in The Toronto Star. It went down considerably. This is what
will happen. From there I will have to go to some other
publication, and the price will go down again and I will have
more clients and more problems.
.
Le projet de loi C-49 touchera egalement a cet aspect de la
prostitution. Je ne travaille pas pour un service d'escorte. Je ne
travaille d'aucune autre fas:on, uniquement par les petites
annonces de .Rencontres. et cela aussi sera touche. Je devrai
avoir recours a des publications de moindre qualite. Les prix
vont baisser. Cela s'est deja produit. Autrefois je mettais des
annonces dans Ie Globe and Mail. Pierre Berton en avait parle
a une emission de radio et, par la suite, il a ete interdit de
mettre des annonces/dans Ie Globe and Mail. Nous nous
sommes par consequent adressees au Toronto Star. Les prix
ont baisse. Toutes les annonces ont paru dans Ie Toronto Star
et les prix ont baisse considerablement. Cela va se reproduire.
Je vais siirement devoir changer de journal plus tard et les prix
baisseront a nouveau et j'aurai davantage de clients et
davantage de problemes.
Merci.
Thank you.
• 1825
The Chairman: A supplementary question.
Le president: Une question complementaire.
Ms Miller: Marie wanted to say something, by the way.
Mme Miller: Marie avait quelque chose a dire, a propos.
The Chairman: Excuse me; but every time we try to get a
new questioner on, one of the witnesses wishes to add, and we
have been round and round quite a bit. I would like to hear
what Madam Bourgault has to say, who has been sitting
patiently for quite a while. We will get back to you, if you feel
there is something. Perhaps you will be asked this question.
Ms Miller: Okay.
Mme Bourgault: On vous a ecoutees. Je pense que vous avez
une idee precise des problemes que vous vivez. Je ne doute pas
un instant que vous vivez des realites qui sont tres dures. Je Ie
comprends en tant que femme, mais peut-etre pas dans Ie
meme sens. Ma profession est d'etredeputee et parlementaire;
la votre c'est d'etre prostituee. II faut respecter les decisions
que vous avez prises sauf qu'a la lumiere de tout ce que vous
Le president: Je vous prie de m'excuser mais ~haque fois que
I'on pose une question, il y a toujours un temoin qui veut
ajouter ses remarques. Nous avons fait Ie tour plusieurs fois. Je
voudrais entendre les propos de Mm< Bourgault qui attend
patiemment depuis un bon moment. Nous allons vous revenir
si vous avez quelque chose a ajouter ulterieurement. La
question sera peut-etre pour vous.
Mme Miller: D'accord.
Mrs. Bourgault: We have listened to you. I think that you
have a pretty clear idea of the problems you face. I do not for
one minute doubt that they are very tough. I understand that
as a woman, but perhaps not in quite the same way. My
profession is being a Member of Parliament and yours is being
in prostitution. Your decisions must be respected but when it
comes to Bill C-49 I do not think that either the current
,
:~
346
22-10-1985
Projet de loi C-49
[Texte]
avez dit concernant Ie projet de loi C-49, je ne pense pas que ni
la loi actuelle, ni celie que nous proposons, ni d'autres legislations dans Ie futur, ne peuvent changer ni ne changeront
jamais les attitudes ou les habitudes des gens. Je pense qu'il y a
une grande question que j'ai notee dans votre rapport, ce qui
m'a Ie plus surprise, c'est la relation que je per~ois concernant
les fameux protecteurs et les proxenetes qui sont presents dans
votre vie quotidienne.
[Traduction]
legislation, the proposed legislation or any future legislation
will ever change people's attitudes and habits. There is an
important issue I noted in your presentation and which
surprised me: I am referring to the relationship I perceive
among the pimps and procurers who are present in your
everyday life.
Je pense que si vous d6cidiez, comme vous l'avez propose
tout a I'heure ... Vous dites que vous ne demandez pas mieux
que de vous organiser et de cesser ce genre de confrontation
que vous vivez entre vous; peut-etre alors que les attitudes de
l'ext6rieur changeront si vous commencez a changer la votre:
la fa~on dont vous operez, la fa~on dont vqus solIicitez. Je
pense que I'histoire des protecteurs et des proxenetes c'est a
mon avis la pire chose de l'histoire dela prostitution et ~a, je
pense que c'est une question d'attitude personnelle que vous
devriez vous autres changer et non demander au gouvernement
ni aux parlementaires de changer pour vous. Je ne pense pas
qu'i1 y ait de loi pouvant vous aider sur ce point. Faites comme
d'autres groupements, organisez-vous, structurez-vous, faites
en sorte que votre vie soit plus facile, parce que la majorite de
la population n'est pas prostituee!
Should you decide, as you proposed earlier ... You state
that you would like nothing better than to organize and to put
an end to this confrontation that exists among you. Perhaps
once your own attitudes had changed, so would other people's,
on the outside. Perhaps if you changed the way you operate,
the way you solicit. All this about protectors and procurers is
one of the worst aspects of prostitution, to my mind, and that
comes down to a question of personal attitude that you must
change, rather than ask the government or parliamentarians to
change it for you. I do not believe there is any law that could
help you in this regard. Do as other groups have done: get
organized, set up a structure, make things easier for yourselves. After all, prostitutes will never be in the majority!
Nous, comme parlementaires nous avons a faire des lois qui
rejoignent la majorite de la population et non ...
As parliamentarians, we have to adopt legislation to protect
the majority of people and not ...
M. Robinson: Et la minorite aussi!
. 1
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2: 41
Mr. Robinson: And the minority as well!
Mme Bourgault: Je comprends rna is quand iI faut proteger
les droits des personnes par un projet de loi, est-ce qu'on fait
un projet de loi qui va proteger les minorites a l'encontre des
droits de la majorite? C'est la Ie probleme qu'on a comme
parlementaires. On voit ~a dans toutes sortes de projets de .Ioi;
ce n'est pas seulement en ce qui concerne la prostitution:·
Regardez l'agriculture, regardez d'autres domaines, il y a
toujours un groupe qui n'est pas content face a un groupe
majoritaire qui lui, est satisfait de la legislation. C'est la meme
chose avec votre metier.
Mrs. Bourgault: I realize that, but when people's rights have
to be protected by h,:gislation does that mean making a law to
protect minorities a't the expense of the majority? That is the
problem we face as parliamentarians. We see all kinds of
legislation, not only bills related to prostitution. There is
agriculture, there are other areas, and there is always some
group that is not satisfied with the legislation and is not part of
the majority. The same thing applies to your profession.
C'est Ie dernier commentaire que je voulais faire et je vais
continuer a regarder cela de pres. Je ne sais pas! Com me Ie
disait rna collegue, Mm. Collins, qui est de la ColombieBritannique, et qui connait bien la situation qui se vit 111bas ... C'est la meme chose au Quebec; j'ai suivi les delibCra"
tions du comite Abella et on a vu qu'a Montreal c'est la meme
chose; ce n'est pas parce que c'est en Colombie-Britannique ...
On entend surtout parler de la Colombie-Britannique ici
aujourd'hui mais, les problemes sont .Ies memes de I'est a
I'ouest, d'un ocean a I'autre et d'un pays a J'autre.
That was my last comment and I am going to continue to
follow this issue closely. I really do not know! As my colleague
Mrs. Collins from British Columbia said, and she is quite
familiar with the situation there ... It is the same thing in
Quebec. I followed the proceedings of the Abella commission
and it is clear that in Montreal it is the same problem. Just
because it goes on in British Columbia doesn't mean ... We
always hear about the problems in B.C. today, but they are the
same in the east and in the west, across this country from coast
to coast.
Mme Pepin: On a l'impression que Ie projet de loi s'adresse
a une ville en particulier bien plus qu'au Canada en gem!ral.
Mrs. pepin: One gets the impression that the bill is aimed at
one particular city rather than at Canada as a whole.
Mme Bourgault: Eh bien, non! Voyons! Cen'est pas un
projet de loi pour la Colombie-Britannique; c'est un projet de
loi canadien qui touche autant les prostituees de I'Est, du
Quebec, que celles de l'Ouest.
Mrs. Bourgault: No! Not at alI! It is not a bill for British
Columbia. It is a Canadian bill that is going to affect prostitutes in the east and the west alike.
En tout 'cas, je vous comprends sauf que j'essaie de comprendre la majorite aussi, les gens qui veulent qu'on vote ce projet
de loi-Ia.
In any event, I appreciate your position but I must take the
majority into account, I must recognize the opinion of the
people who are in favour of this bill going through.
347
2: 42
Bill C-49
22-10-1985
[Translation 1
[Text]
• 1830
a
I think it is you and you alone who are going to be able to
help us to change people's attitude.
Ms Crawford: We have moved. We are not in a residential
area any more. We do not want to be in a residential area; we
said we would move. We have moved four times in the last two
months.
Mme Crawford: Nous nous sommes deplacees. Nous ne
travaillons plus dans un quartier residentiel. Nous ne voulions
plus y travailler et nous avons ete d'accord pour changer de
quartier. Nous avons change quatre fois depuis les deux
derniers mois.
Mrs. Bourgault: Who is going to prove to us that you are not
going to come back?
Mme Bourgault: Qui va nous prouver que vous n'allez pas y
retourner?
Ms Crawford: They have given us an alternative right now.
Mme Crawford: On nous a propose une solution de
rechange.
Ms Arrington: First, the women were in the bars. The police
moved them out of the bars onto the streets. They moved them
out of the clubs onto the streets.
Mme Arrington: D'abord, les femmes travaillaient dans les
bars. La police les a jetees a la rue. Elle les a aussi chassees des
.
clubs.
Now, we have been organizing as a prostitutes' rights groups
for four years in Vancouver, and every time we go out on the
street and we talk to the women, the women get threatened by
the police about starting to organize. Now, it is next to
impossible for street prostitutes to organize because of the
harassment, the threats, the violence and the total control by
the police over these women and their working conditions.
Maintenant, depuis quatre ans, nous nous organisons pour
defendre les droits des prostituees a Vancouver. Chaque fois
qu'on discute avec nos consoeurs, on est menacees par la police
qui ne veut pas que nous nous organisions. Aujourd'hui iI est
presque impossible aux prostituees de s'organiser a cause du
harcelement, des menaces, des sevices et de I'emprise totale des
policiers sur ces femmes et sur leurs conditions de travail.
Je pense que c'est vous et vous seules qui allez nous aider
changer I'attitude des gens.
Ms Crawford: They moved us into a residential area.
Mme Crawford: lis nous ont mises dans un quartier
residentiel.
Ms Arrington: Now, women have been threatened by the
police that, if they talk to us, they will make sure they will
never work there again or make money. Now, it is hard to
organize on the street as prostitutes under these conditions. It
is also hard to organize and to do public education when you
have residents and politicians who are so willing to abuse their
rights and their control over your lives. As far as I am
concerned, as long as you abuse my rights, everybody's rights
are in danger, the majority or the minority. It is very evident in
this country that the majority does not take the rights of the
minority into consideration, as is witnessed with native Indian
rights, with women's rights, with native women's rights, and
the poverty of people, because there are the haves and the
have-nots. As long as women are part of the have-nots, weare
in jeopardy and our civil rights are in jeopardy. So do not talk
to me about majority.
Mme Arrington: La police a meme menace les femmes de
les empecher dr- travailler ou de gagner de I'argent si eIles nous
parlaient. II est tres difficile d'organiser les prostituees dans la
rue dans ces conditions-hi. II est egalement difficile d'organiser
et d'informer Ie public lorsque les residents et les politiciens
sont prets a abuser de leur droit et de leur contrale sur nos vies.
D'apres moi, des qu'i! y a abus des droits, les droits de tous et
chacun sont en jeu, les droits de la majorite aussi bien que de.
la minorite. Dans ce pays, la majorite ne tient manifestement
pas compte des droits de la minorite, d'ou I'abus des droits des
autochtones, des femmes, des femmes autochtones et des
pauvres, car dans cette societe il y ales nan tis et les demunis.
Tant et aussi longtemps que les femmes font partie de cette
categorie-ci, nos droits sont en cause et en jeu. Ne me parlez
donc pas de la majorite.
Ms Crawford: I have spoken with the "Shame the Johns"
people. I have spoken with them since we have moved. They
are happy; they are happy now. We are not in the residential
area any more; we are in a warehouse district. They spent
$30,000 putting lights and things down there for us, and we
are still getting harassed. The citizens, all the residents, are
saying: Great, you are all moved, so everybody is happy; you
are in your place and we will let you work alone. You are not
in our neighbourhood any more, so everything is fine. But we
are still getting harassed. The police are still out there and we
have moved. We are in a warehouse district; warehouses, that
is where we are. There are no homes down there.
Mme Crawford: 1'ai deja discute avec Ie groupe de Vancouver «Shame the Johns ... Je lui ai parle depuis que nous avons
change de quartier. II est satisfait maintenant. Les membres
du groupe sont satisfaits. Nous ne travaillons plus dans Ie
quartier residentiel mais dans un quartier d'entrepOts. On a
mis 30,000$ dans I'eclairage et d'autres installations, et encore
la nous sommes I'objet de mesures vexatoires. Tous les
residents sont heureux que 1'0n nous ait deplacees. Tout Ie
monde est heureux. Les citoyens sont contents que nous soyons
a notre place maintenant. lis pretendent qu'ils vont nous laisser
tranquilles pour travailler puisque nous ne sommes plus dans
leur quartier. Cela n'empeche que nous subissons des mesures
vexatoires. La police nous suit meme si nous avons change de
quartier. Nous sommes dans un quartier d'entrepOts. Un
348
22-10-1985
Projet de loi C-49
2: 43
[TexteJ
[Traduction I
quartier d'entreprots, parfaitement. II n'y a pas de residence
privee.
Ms Miller: I would like to say something about the principles of this country since you seem to be so concerned about
them. There was a time at the turn of the century when
socialists were seen as reprehensible people; in fact, they were
herded in the streets. They were moved around. The police
barred them from entry to associate together. There was a
majority then. That was a majority of people saying they were
a bunch of reds. In fa.ct, I think it is the Chicago Five. There is
a classic of all of that.
Mme Miller: Puisque les principes de ce pays semblent vous
preoccuper tant, je voudrais en dire quelques mots. Fut un
temps, au debut du siecle, ou les socialistes etaient consideres
comme des gens reprehensibles. Effectivement, la police les
ramassait dans la rue, les deplao;;ait d'un quartier a un autre.
EI1e les empechait de s'associer. Or, il y avait a l'epoque une
majorite. Une majorite qui pretendait que c'etait un groupe de
communistes. En fait, c'etait les Chicago Five (Ie groupe des
Cinq de Chicago). C'est c1assique.
There was a time when people's sensibilities were offended if
they had to walk past a black person on the street, and that
was the majority. They had to walk past a black person on the
street and they were insulted that the black person had his
head up. In fact, when I was in the south I remember hearing a
women who had just come from church saying: My God, you
give them a little rope, and now they are learning to read and
write and they are talking over. That was your majority. You
are so concerned about majorities? That was the majority.
Fut un temps ou on s'offusquait si on devait passer devant
un Noir dans la rue. Or, c'etait la majorite qui s'offusquait.
Elle devait passer un Noir dans la rue et elle etait insultee par
Ie fait qu'il portait la tete haute. En fait, dans Ie Sud je me
souviens d'une femme qui sortait de I'eglise disant: Mon Dieu,
on leur donne un peu de liberte et aussitot ils ont appris a lire
et a ecrire, et bientot ils voudront etre les maitres. C'etait o;;a,
votre majorite. Vous etes si preoccupes par les desirs de la
majorite? Eh bien, elle etait ainsi votre majorite.
Now, in this country there are certain principles that are not
up for debate. They are not up for a numbers count. They are
supposed to be fundamental in this country, and that is the
right to exist. Now, if prostitutes do not have the right to exist,
make it illegal. If it is not illegal, we have the right to exist. I
am sorry if the sight of a prostitute is unseemly and upsets a
certain segment of the people. I am sorry if it really is true
what you are saying that it upsets the majority of the people,
but we have a right to exist. What have we gone through-all
of these trials, all of these tests on democracy, all of these tests
of humanity for all of these years-to come to this? Why is
suddenly it different? If I were black, you would not dare
quote to me about the majority. I have a right to exist, by law.
Do not dare quote it to us now!
Aujourd'hui, au Canada, certains principes ne sont pas
discutables. lis ne peuvent etre mis aux voix. II s'agit en
principe des droits fondamentaux du pays, dont Ie droit
d'exister. Or, si les prostituees n'ont pas Ie droit d'exister, il
faut criminaliser la prostitution. Sinon, nous continuons
d'avoir Ie droit d'exister. Je suis desolee si la perspective d'une
prostituee dans la rue ne convient pas au decor peint par une
certaine partie de la population. C'est vraiment dommage que
notre existence de~ange vraiment la majorite, comme vous
dites. Mais nous avonsquand meme Ie droit d'exister. Tous ces
proces, toutes ces remises en question des principes democratiques et humains de puis des annees n'auront-ils vraiment rien
donne? Pourquoi ces changements subits? 'Vous n'oseriez pas
me parler de la majorite si j'etais Noire. La loi reconnait mon
droit d'exister. N'allez surtout pas nous en citer des extraits
maintenant!
• 1835
Mrs. Bourgault: What about the protectors? What about
the men who take 50% of your income, or 20%?
Ms Arrington: What is she talking about?
r
n
Mme Bourgault: Qu'en est-il de vos protecteurs? Je veux
parler de ces hommes qui vous prennent 50 p. 100 ou 20 p. 100
de vos revenus.
Mme Arrington: De quoi veut-elle parler?
Mrs. Bourgault: Well, you raised that in your report. You
raised that in that report.
Mme Bourgault: Eh bien, c'est un sujet que vous avez
souleve dans votre rapPort.
Ms Arrington: But it is our money. We have a right to give
our money to whom we choose. We raised it in the report of
what would happen to these women when you pass Bill C-49:
that these women are going to have pimps. The majority of the
women do not have pimps. Very few women have pimps, in
fact.
Mme Arrington: C'est notre argent et nous avons Ie droit de
Ie donner a qui nous voulons. Nous avons traite de cet aspect
dans notre rapport dans Ie contexte de l'incidence du projet de
loi C-49. A I'heure actuelle, la majorite des femmes n'ont pas
de souteneurs. Mais si Ie projet de loi est adopte, nous craignons qu'elles doivent s'en trouver un.
Cathy: If a woman works at a real estate office and her
husband works for an insurance company and they both bring
all of their money home, and she takes her money and buys
groceries and feeds him dinner, is there a problem with that? I
mean, if I make my money, it is my money, and I can give my
Cathy: Prenons I'exemple d'un couple dont la femme
travaille pour un agent d'immeuble et Ie mari, pour une
compagnie d'assurance. Les conjoints peuvent tres bien faire ce
qu'ils veulent de leur salaire. La femme peut tres bien aller a
I'epicerie acheter des aliments et preparer Ie diner de son mari.
Personne ne trouve rien a redire. En d'autres mots, si je gagne
349
2 :44
Bill C-49
22-10-1985
[Text)
money to whomever I want to give my money to. I could give it
to you.
[Translation]
de i'argent, cet argent est a moi et je peux en faire ce que je
veux. Je pourrais meme tres bien vous Ie donner.
You said before that if we had better attitudes and if we
would organize and get our views put across, well, we are
trying desperately to tell you that we are not allowed to
organize.
Vous avez deja dit qu'il serait bien que nous changions
d'attitude et que nous nous organisions de maniere a faire
connaitre notre point de vue. Mais justement, nous essayons de
vous faire com prendre qu'on ne nous laisse pas nous organiser.
I can tell you some touching things I have gone through in
this last year. Until a year ago, I ran my business; I never said
a word. I was not political. I never opened my mouth. When
the Fraser commission began doing its work, that was the first
time I thought, hey, you know, this guy comes to me, he wants
to know my story; he cares; government cares; they want to
know who we are. We turned that guy on to ~s many escort
services, street girls-like, you know, we really, really tried, as
good citizens, to communicate who we are and what we are
about.
II m'est arrive toutes sortes de choses tres emouvantes depuis
un an. Je dirigeais, jusqu'a il y a un an, rna propre entreprise.
Je ne disais jamais un mot, je n'ouvrais pas la bouche et je ne
faisais pas de politique. Et puis, la Commission Fraser a
commence ses travaux. C'est la premiere fois que j'ai pense
vraiment que Ie gouvernement s'interessait a mon sort.
Quelqu'un est venu me demander de lui raconter mon histoire.
Nous lui avons fait connaftre de nombreux services d'escorte
ainsi que des filles qui font Ie trottoir. Nous avons essaye de
bien faire notre devoir de citoyennes et de lui expliquer qui
nous etions et pourquoi.
That was the first for me. And then other things. There is a
feminist conference coming up in November in Toronto. I
personally became very involved with this. I see my contemporaries as being very cynical a lot of the time; they do not trust
the institutions of the culture. But I thought that these people
care about us, so let us gather up some ladies and have a
meeting and talk about it with these feminists, because they
might help us. I got on the phone on a given Friday afternoon
and I phoned about 20 women to come to this meeting. Every
single woman came.
C'etait vraiment une premiere pour moi. Et d'autres choses
encore me sont arrivees. Une conference feministe aura lieu en
novembre a Toronto. Je me suis occupee activement de cette
affaire. Mes camarades sont souvent cyniques, elles se mefient
des institutions cuiturelles. Mais j'ai senti que ces gens
s'interessaient vraiment a notre sort. C'est pourquoi j'ai pense
reunir quelques camarades pour rencontrer ces feministes qui
sont susceptibles de nous aider. Alors un certain vendredi
apres-midi, j'ai invite quelque 20 femmes a venir assister a une
reunion. Elles sont toutes venues.
Because there are only five of us here, do you think that
means that there are not 500 more where we came from? We
do talk among our colleagues, and we would like to share it
with the culture, but we also do not want to go to jail for it. I
do not want a rock thrown through my window for it. Sure, we
would like to communicate with the culture. If the culture
knew more about us it would not persecute us so brutally. But
we are not allowed. Allow us to. We will talk to you. We
show you that we have pretty good attitudes really, if you
would let us tell you.
Nous ne sommes peut-etre que cinq ici aujourd'hui, mais
cela ne veut pas dirt: que nous ne comptons pas au moins 500
camarades. Nous communiquons beaucoup entre nous et nous
tenons a vous faire connaitre notre milieu. Mais il ne faudrait
pas que cela nous mene directement 11 la prison. Je ne voudrais·
pas non plus qu'on casse mes fenetres. Je pense que si vous
nous connaissiez mieux, nous ne serions pas autant persecutees. Mais nous n'avons pas Ie droit de pratiquer notre metier.
Accordez-nous ce droit. Laissez-nous vous parTer. Vous verrez
alors que nous avons des attitudes tres positives.
Ms Miller: I would like to say something else about the
pimp situation. I want you to be aware that your perception of
"pimp" comes from your own reflections of us, your own
attitudes about us that you have put on us.
Mme Miller: J'ai quelque chose a ajouter au sujet des
proxenetes. La perception que vous avez du proxenete decoule
de i'image que vous vous etes faite de nous ainsi que de votre
attitude a notre endroit.
The underlying message in the way the law against pimps
living off the avails, and the procuring laws which evolved
later, where that all came from WaS a perception of the
prostitute as unlovable by a decent man. That is where it really
came from. No decent man could love a prostitute; therefore,
let us protect them from all these indecent men they may turn
to. It is based on your reality and your perception of us, and
nothing more. The fact is that with your procuring laws, the
men you are trying to hurt, which is the traditional pimp who
is exploitive, is the very man you are saying we deserve. In
your laws that is the underlying message.
Donc ce qui ressort de tout cela, de ces lois qui interdisent
aux proxenetes de vivre des revenus des prostituees ainsi que
des lois ulterieures qui interdisent Ie proxenetisme, c'est qu'une
prostituee ne peut pas etre aimee d'un homme bien. C'est la
raison pour laquelle des lois ont ete adoptees pour proteger les
prostituees contre ces garnements. Ces lois sont fondees sur
votre realite, sur votre perception de nous. Vous ne semblez
pas vous rendre compte du fait que vos lois sur Ie proxenetisme
et les hommes qu'elle vise sont justement ces proxenetes
traditionnels qui nous exploitent, les seuls que nous meritions,
d'apres vous. C'est exactement ce qui ressort de vos lois.
What you are saying to us is: You are so unlovable, you are
supposed to be with this kind of a man. When we come in front
of you and say: I know girls who have accountants as lovers;
they share; they pool resources; and when we say to you: This
C'est tout a fait comme si vous nous disiez que personne ne
peut nous aimer et que nous meritons ce genre d'hommes.
Vous savez, je connais des filles qui ont un comptable comme
amant. lIs partagent leurs revenus, leurs ressources. Ce que je
will
350
22-10-1985
Projet de loi C-49
2: 45
[Traduction]
[Texte]
man is not an exploitive man, would you please allow me to
shape and control and define my own family life-that
fundamental right to shape and control my own family as I see
the need. You come up with all this protectionist garbage,
based on your hangup about our being unlovable. It is
unfortunate that it is still in the feminist analysis. We are
working very hard to try and get this across to feminists. We
do not see ourselves as unlovable. I am sorry if you do. We see
ourselves as having successful relationships with men of our
choice.
tiens a vous dire, c'est que cet homme n'exploite pas cette
femme et qu'il faudrait peut-etre nous laisser choisir la vie de
famille qui nous convient. II me semble que j'ai ce droit
fonda mental de decider de ma propre vie de famille. Vous nous
sortez toutes ces histoires de protectionnisme, mais eJles sont
fondees sur votre propre perception du fait que personne n'est
capable de nous aimer. Malheureusement, les feministes
partagent cette attitude. Nous consacrons enormement
d'efforts pour essayer de leur faire comprendre notre point de
vue. Nous ne nous percevons pas comme inaptes aetre aimees.
C'est dommage si c'est ce que vous croyez. Nous choisissons
nous-memes les hommes avec lesquels nous entretenons
d'excellents rapports.
• 1840
e
ie, .
When you see a woman choose a man who is undesirable, it
is because she is acting out what is expected of her, because of
what you have told her. This is the way it works. Now, I am
telling you what the reality is. If you want to sit there and say
to me, but that does not fit Into my theory, then you can live
with that illusion, but you are living with that illusion at a lot
of other people's expense.
Et si une fille choisit un mauvais garnement, c'est parce
qu'elle agit selon certaines attentes, selon ce que vous lui dites.
Je vous decris notre situation, notre realite. Vous pouvez
toujours me dire que mes propos ne sont pas conformes a votre
theorie. Je vous repondrai alors que vous pouvez conserver vos
illusions, rna is que ce sera au detriment de beaucoup d'autres
personnes.
Cathy: There are many housewives out there too who
support exploitive husbands.
Cathy: II y a beaucoup de femmes qui font vivre des maris
qui les exploitent.
Mrs. Bourgault: You misunderstand what I said. I should
think you would want to listen. Do you do not want to listen to
what I have to say? What I am trying to say to you ...
Mme Bourgault: Vous m'avez mal comprise. II serait peutetre bon que vous m'ecoutiez. N'avez-vous pas envie d'entendre ce que j'ai a dire? Voici ce que j'essaie de vous faire
com prendre.
Cathy: Were you not listening to what I said, because I am
expecting an answer?
Cathy: N'ecoutiez-vous pas ce que je disais, parce que
j'attends une reponse?
Mrs. Bourgault: I have listened two hours to what you have
said, Madam, and I care about you. You do not have ...
Mme Bourgault: Cela fait deux heures que je vous ecoute,
madame, et votre cas m'interesse. Vous n'avez pas ...
Cathy: Then why are you walking out of the room? Why do
you not answer us?
Cathy: Alors pourquoi quittez-vous cette salle? Pourquoi ne
nous repondez-vous pas?
a une reunion du caucus
Mrs. Bourgault: I have to attend a Quebec caucus meeting.
Mme Bourgault: Je devais assister
du Quebec.
Cathy: I see. You cannot be bothered to answer.
Cathy: Je vois. Vous n'avez tout simplement pas envie de
repondre.
The Chairman: Mr. Baker has been waiting patiently to get
a supplementary question in, I believe. Now is your chance, at
long last.
Le president: M. Baker attend impatiemment de poser sa
question supple menta ire. Votre tour est enfin venu.
Mr. Baker: Mr. Chairman, I am very impressed with the
presentation and the excellent manner in which some of the
witnesses are expressing themselves. I was interested in a
portion of the evidence given regarding what a woman can
expect from the welfare office, as it relates to her actual
expenses.
M. Baker: Monsieur Ie president, cet expose et la falton dont
certains de ces temoins s'expriment m'impressionnentvivement. Je m'interesse surtout a ce qui a ete dit au sujet de I'aide
qu'une fille peut attendre a obtenir du bureau du Bien-etre
social, surtout si I'on tient compte de ses depenses reelles.
First of all, let us start with a single girl. You go into the
welfare office, you are over 18 years of age ... Mr. Chairman,
at 18 you lose your family allowance cheque, and apparently
you lose everything else, do you not? What is the answer given
to a woman or a man, because we are also dealing with male
prostitutes as well? I do not know if you mentioned the
numbers of male prostitutes in comparison to female prostitutes who have to operate in the streets, but perhaps you could
Pre nons d'abord Ie cas d'une celibataire. Les filles agees de
plus de 18 ans qui se rendent au bureau du Bien-etre ...
Monsieur Ie president, des qu'une personne atteint rage de 18
ans, elle cesse de recevoir ses allocations familiales ainsi que
toute autre aide, n'est-ce pas? QueUe reponse donne-t-on aux
femmes et aux hommes puisque nous traitons egalement des
prostitues du sexe masculin? J'ignore si vous avez parle du
nombre d'hommes qui font Ie trottoir par opposition aux filles.
351
Bill C-49
2: 46
22-10-1985
[Text]
comment on that as well. What does a girl receive from a
welfare office, in this great system of ours of social security,
when you walk in and look for support?
[Translation]
Vous pourriez peut-etre nous en glisser un mot. Et entre Ie
merveilleux systeme de securite sociale, com bien re90it la fille
qui s'adresse au bureau du Bien-etre social?
Ms Arrington: First of all, if you are single and 18, you are
asked about your family life. Why can you not stay at home
and why can your parents not help you? In British Columbia,
the starting rate is $325 a month for the first few months, then
it goes up to $350, then it goes to $375 at which it stays
stagnant.
Mme Arrington: Quand on est celibataire et agee de 18 ans,
on commence par nous poser· des questions sur notre vie de
famille. On commence par nous demander ce qui nous
empeche de rester a la maison et pourquoi nos parents ne
peuvent pas nous .aider. En Colombie-Britannique, I'allocation
mensuelle de base est de 325$ pour les quelques premiers mois,
puis elle passe a 350$ et enfin, a 375$, mais c'est tout.
Mr. Baker: That is if you get anything.
M. Baker: Si vous avez la chance d'obtenir de I'aide.
Ms Arrington: That is if you get anything.
Mme Arrington: C'est juste.
Mr. Baker: Is that correct?
M. Baker: C'est juste?
Ms Arrington: That is right. You have to qualify, first of all.
Mme Arrington: C'est juste. II faut d'abord etre admissible.
Mr. Baker: Now, just tell us now how you have to qualify?
Do they ask about your parents, do they ask ...
M. Baker: Mais quels sont les criteres d'admissibilite? Vous
pose-t-on des questions au sujet de vos parents, de ...
Ms Arrington: They ask a~ut your parents. They ask about
your income.
Mme Arrington: Oui, on vous pose des questions au sujet de
vos parents et de votre revenu.
Mr. Baker: Do they ask for T-4 slips or anything?
M. Baker: Est-ce que I'on vous demande des T-4 ou d'autres
documents?
Ms Arrington: Oh, yes. You have to provide a rent receipt.
You have to provide a letter from your landlord. When my
daughter left home, I had to provide a letter for my daughter
stating that I was not willing to support her, that I was unable
financially to support her.
Mme Arrington: Oh, oui. Vous devez egalement fournir un
re9u de loyer et remettre une lettre de votre proprietaire.
Quand rna fille a quitte la maison, j'ai dii lui remettre une
lettre dans laquelle je deciarais que je refusais de subvenir a
ses besoins et que je n'en avais pas les moyens.
Now, if you happen to be under 18 and a runaway, things
are even worse. If you are under 18 and a runaway, you do not
even· qualify for independent living. You do not qualify for a
group home because you are over 16. So in fact, between the
age of 16 and 18, you are not even alive, according to the
Ministry of Human Resources in British Columbia.
Pour les moins de 18 ans qui se sont sauves de chez eux, la
situation est encore pire. En effet, ces jeunes ne sont memes
pas consideres comme autonomes. lis n'ont cependant pas
acces aux foyers d'accueil parce qu'i1s ont plus de 16 ans.
Done, selon Ie ministre des Ressources humaines de la
Colombie-Britannique, les jeunes ages entre 16 et 18 ans
n'existent me me pas.
Mr. Baker: It is the same thing practically in other provinces.
M. Baker: La situation est essentiellement la meme dans les
autres provinces.
Ms Arrington: I cannot speak for other provinces but I can
speak for B.C. Now, as a runaway, you have to go by their
rules. You have to live in a group home or you have to live in a
foster home or you have to report. You have to do all kinds of
things they set out for you. You have to go looking for a job.
You have to be willing to go to school. If you cannot get into a
school, and if you are unable to God help you if you should
happen to be 18 and a single parent, because then it is even
worse, because you cannot get little vouchers for daycare.
They just will not give them out.
Mme Arrington: Je ne peux rien dire pour ce qui concerne
les autres provinces, mais je connais bien la situation de la
Colombie-Britannique. Les jeunes qui se sont sauves de chez
eux doivent observer Ie .reglement. lis doivent vivre dans des
centres ou des foyers d'accueil ou alors se presenter regulierement. lis doivent appliquer a la lettre tous les reglements qui
les concernent. lIs doivent chercher un emploi. lis doivent etre
disposes a aller a i'ecole. Et s'ils ne Ie sont pas, tant pis pour
eux. Et si vous avez 18 ans et vous vous trouvez seule avec un
enfant, la situation est encore plus grave parce qu'alors vous ne
pouvez meme pas obtenir de coupons de garderie. lis vous les
refusent tout simplement.
• 1845
Mr. Baker: That is if you are drawing
get those.
mc, is
Ms Arrington: No, even on welfare you cannot.
it not-you
M. Baker: Ce sont des coupons que vous obtenez quand vous
touchez de I'assurance-chomage, n'est-ce pas?
Mme Arrington: Non, on ne vous en donne pas quand vous
recevez du bien-etre social.
352
22-10-1985
I.
i
Projet de loi C-49
2: 47
[Textel
Mr. Baker: I am talking about UIC. Can you if you are
drawing VIC?
[Traduction 1
M. Baker: Mais moi je parle d'assurance-chomage. Est-ce
que I'on vous remet ces coupons si vous touchez de l'assurancechOmage?
Ms Arrington: Can you collect little vouchers for daycare?
No. It all has to be okayed through the department; and it is
next to impossible to get it okayed. Once in a blue moon you
will get it passed, if you have a good social worker. You have a
social worker, you have a family worker, you have a financial
aid worker, and then you have your director; and then you
have to go to a different director if you want to go to school. In
the meantime you are making the round of the social service
offices and agencies and the people in power, and finally you
just give up and say the hell with it, I am not going to bother; I
am going to go out to make the money the best way I know
how to make it.
Mme Arrington: Les petits coupons de garderie, non. Toutes
ces demarches doivent recevoir I'autorisation du ministere et
c'est presque impossible a obtenir. Si vous avez un bon
travailleur social, vous avez un peu plus de chance. Vous avez
un travailleur social, un conseiller familial, un conseiller
financier et enfin, un directeur. Mais si vous voulez aller a
l'ecole, vous devez traiter' avec un autre directeur. Tout cela
pour dire qu'il faut faire Ie tour des bureaux et agences du
service social et rencontrer tous ces gens. Vous finissez par
vous lasser et par retourner a la seule activite remuneratrice
que vous connaissiez.
That is with the girls on the street. If you are a male and if
you try to get welfare, you cannot tell them you are working
the street. You have to tell them where you come from. It is
really hard to collect welfare as a male also, because they want
you out there doing absolutely anything and everything you
can. The only rooms you can get for $325 a month to' be able
to live are the hotel rooms on skid row, and they charge $200 a
month. So in reality you have $125, a bed, a dresser, a sink, a
shared bathroom, and a whole bunch of cockroaches-right on
the skids. That is where you live, and that is how you survive.
Je veux parler des filles qui font Ie trottoir. Les gar90ns qui
essaient d'obtenir du bien-etre ne peuvent pas dire a leur
travailleur social qu'ils font Ie trottoir. II faut commencer par
expliquer d'ou vous venez. C'est egalement tres difficile pour
un gar90n de toucher du bien-etre social parce qu'il demande
vraiment beaucoup. Avec 325$ par mois, on ne peut que se
loger dans des hOtels minables qui nous demandent 200$ par
mois pour une chambre. Donc iI vous reste 125$, un lit, un
bureau, un evier, une salle de bain communautaire ainsi que
toute une famille de coquerelles dans les pires quartiers. C'est
comme cela que ron vit ou plutot, que ron survit.
Prostitution is the only profession where women make more
money than men. It is also the only profession where men have
to dress as women to make the same amount of money. It is
really ironic. It shows the status this society puts on women, by
the money they make; and especially on street women. Street
women are much more open to robberies, to violence, to bottles
of beer being thrown from the eighth floor, full, at the women,
rotten eggs, hydraulic hoses filled with soapy water', firecrackers, blowtorches, as has been happening in Vancouver.
La prostitution est la seule profession ou les femmes gagnent
plus que les hommes. C'est egalement la seule profession ou les
hommes doivent s'habiller en femme pour gagner autant. C'est
une ironie du sort. Gela montre bien que Ie statut que la societe
accorde a la femme est fonction de ses revenus, surtout pour ce
qui concerne les femmes qui font Ie trottoir. Les femmes qui
font Ie trottoir sont tres vulnerables et sujettes aux vols, a la
violence, aux bouteilles de biere qu'on leur envoie pleines d'un
huitieme etage, aux oeufs pourris, aux boyaux hydrauliques
remplis d'eau, savonneuse, aux petards, aux chalumeaux
comme ce\a s'est produit dernierement a Vancouver.
Ms Crawford: A girl's 'face was burnt. She walked up to a
car and a man had a blowtorch and just burnt her face.
Mme Crawford: Une fille s'est fait briller au visage. Elle
s'est approchee d'une voiture et un homme avec un chalumeau
lui a brille Ie visage.
Ms Arrington: When she goes to welfare and asks for a
crisis grant, I have had women tell me that their social worker
has said, we are not allowed to give you a crisis grant; but the
street is out there.
Mme Arrington: Mettons qu'elle s'adresse au bureau du
bien-etre social et qu'elle demande une subvention d'urgence.
Vous savez, il y a des travailleurs sociaux qui ont dit a des
femmes qu'ils n'avaient pas Ie droit de leur donner ce genre de
subvention et que la rue etait toujours la.
Mr. Baker: In other words, what you are saying is that
basically under the great social security system we have in
Canada today you could conceivably starve. You could
conceivably starve, because the system does not give enough
money in most cases to people in that age group, over 16.
M. Baker: En d'autres termes, vous nous dites que dans ce
merveilleux systeme de securite sociale que nous avons au
Canada, il est tout a fait possible de mourir de faim. Vous nous
dites que les personnes dans ce groupe d'age, les plus de 16
ans, ne re90ivent tout simplement pas une aide suffisante et
qu'ils peuvent donc mourir de faim.
Ms Arrington: I would like to go one step further. It is not
"could conceivably"; it is "are starving".
Mme Arrington: Je ne dirais pas «peuvent mourir de faim.
mais bien .meurent de faim •.
Mr. Baker: Let us extend that for a second to, as you
mentioned, where you have a child. The great social security
system in Canada today, this great system, where you have a
M. Baker: Mettons alors que vous ayez un enfant. Si vous
avez un enfant, Ie merveilleux systeme de securite sociale que
,~' ..'
353
Bill C-49
2: 48
[Text]
child ... and then your rate for welfare goes up a little bit,
does it not?
22-10-1985
[Translation]
nous avons au Canada vous accordera un peu plus d'argent,
n'est-ce pas?
Mme Arrington: On vous remet alors 620$.
Ms Arrington: It goes up to $620.
Mr. Baker: It goes up to $620; and that includes everything.
M. Baker: Et ces 620$ comprennent tout.
Ms Arrington: Everything. You are allowed $350 a month
for rent, and the rest of it is yours to pay for everything else,
period.
Mme Arrington: Tout. On vous autorise 350$ par mois de
loyer et vous devez survivre avec Ie reste.
Ms Crawford: Food, formula, diapers, clothes for the baby.
All these women go to second-hand stores.
Mme Crawford: Et avec cela iI faut tout payer, les aliments,
Ie lait, les formules, les couches et les vetements pour Ie bebe.
Toutes ces femmes sont des clientes des magasins d'articles
usages.
Mr. Baker: Getting to the second portion of my question ...
the reason why I am asking you this is this Is going on the
official record, and this is all printed. About 1,000 copies are
made and sent to interested parties: individuals and government agencies and people. If you are working ... you mentioned British Columbia, where the minimum wage is $3.65 an
hour. The federal minimum wage is $3.50, in this great social
security system we have in Canada today. That amounts to--I
worked it out-$560 a month, if you are working a 40-hour
week, or $584 a month. Now, somebody making that amount
of money, could they live, as you see it, in Vancouver? Is that
where you are from, Vancouver?
M. Baker: Ceci m'amene a poser la deuxieme partie de rna
question. Et je vous pose toutes ces questions pour les fins du
compte rendu. Quelque 1,000 copies sont imprimees et
envoyees aux parties interessees: des particuliers, des organismes du gouvernement, etc. Vous avez dit que Ie salaire
minimum eta it de 3,65$ I'heure en Colombie-Britannique. Le
minimum federal est de 3,50$ dans Ie cadre de ce merveilleux
systeme de securite sociale que nous avons au Canada
aujourd'hui. Cela revient-j'ai fait les calculs-a 560$ par
mois pour une semaine de 40 heures ou encore, 584$ par mois.
Peut-on vivre a Vancouver avec ce genre de revenu? Est-ce que
vous venez de Vancouver?
• 1850
Ms Arrington: Yes.
Mme Arrington: Oui.
Mr. Baker: It would be practically impossible, would it not,
without the cockroaches? Is that correct?
M. Baker: Mais c'est a peu pres impossible sans coquerelles,
'
n'est-ce pas?
Ms Arrington: Yes. Well, let us put it this way . .Many of the
women that are out on the street, also have straight jobs. They
are out on the street supplementing their income.
Mme Arrington: Oui. Mais vous savez, iI y a beaucoup de
femmes qui font Ie trottoir qui ont egalement des emplois
normaux. Elles font Ie trottoir pour arrondir leurs fins de mois.
Mr. Baker: Okay. Now I am getting to my question, the
lead-up to my question. The question is this: If the social
security system or welfare, as we all know it, were adequate
and the minimum wage was adequate in our society-but,
more importantly, if the welfare system were adequate-what
percentage of women do you believe, and men, because they
are treated even worse under the welfare system, what
percentage do you think would probably stop prostitution
immediately?
M. Baker: Tres bien. Et tout cela m'amene enfin a rna
question: si les services de securite sociale ou de bien-etre
social etaient suffisants et si Ie salaire minimum etait suffisant,
quel serait, d'apres vous, Ie pourcentage de femmes et d'hommes, qui sont encore plus maltraites par Ie systeme, qui
mettraient immediatement fin a leurs activites de prostitution?
Ms Arrington: I cannot talk to you about percentages.
Mme Arrington: Je ne peux pas vous donner de pourcentage.
Mr. Baker: Just in your own mind, as you see it.
M. Baker: l'aimerais bien avoir votre opinion.
Ms Arrington: I would say a majority of the women that are
Mme Arrington: D'apres moi, la majorite des femmes qui
on the street now would leave the street. I would even request . font Ie trottoir cesseraient leurs activites. J'irais meme plus
one step further. That if this country added all women's work, loin. D'apres moi, si Ie pays ajoutait tout Ie travail des femmes,
paid and unpaid, to the gross national product of this country remunere ou non, au produit national brut, Ie considerait
and counted it as work and gave the women bargaining power, comme du vrai travail et accordait un pouvoir de negociation
and the women were paid for the labour that we do in provid- aux femmes, si les femmes etaient payees pour leur contribuing the labour force of this country, many of us would not have tion au marche du travail, nous serions nombreuses a ne pas
. to turn to prostitution to survive. So the profession of prostitu- nous adonner a la prostitution pour survivre. La prostitution
tion could be left to a choice, which is as it should be left.
devrait etre, idealement, une question de choix.
Ms Crawford: Instead of a decision between starving or
going outside the law.
Mme Crawford: Plutot qu'une decision entre mourir de faim
et violer la loi.
354
22-10-1985
,-,
,
s- '
Projet de loi C-49
[Texte]
Mr. Baker: Okay. I just want to conclude by ...
[Traduction]
M. Baker: Tres bien. J'aimerais conclure en disant ...
The Acting Chairman (Mrs. Collins): This is your last
question.
La presidente suppleante (Mme Collins): Ce sera votre
derniere question.
Mr. Baker: My last question. I want to conclude by asking
the lady in pink, right in the centre, the number 12 lady there.
That is the number up next. I am sorry, I do not know any of
your names ... Peggy. I would like to ask Peggy the same
question. In her mind, if the welfare payments were adequate,
if it was adequate for somebody who was in a situation where
all they wanted to do was live, eat, sleep or to take care of their
child adequately, what percentage do you believe of street
prostitutes would no longer turn to prostitution?
M. Baker: Tres bien. J'ai une question a poser a la dame en
rose, juste au centre, celie qui porte Ie numero 12. C'est la
suivante. Je suis desole, je ne connais aucun de vos noms ...
Peggy. Je veux poser la meme question a Peggy. Peut-elle me
dire si les indemnites de bien-etre social etaient suffisantes
pour permettre a quelqu'un de vivre, de manger, de dormir ou
de s'occuper de son enfant de maniere appropriee, quel serait
Ie pourcentage de filles qui font Ie trottoir qui arreteraient de
s'adonner a la prostitution?
Ms Miller: The girls on the street are the most desperate.
They tend to be the girls that are there for economic reasons,
by and large. It is very nice ... I am sorry, I do not know your
name either.
Mme Miller: Les filles qui font Ie trottoir sont les plus
desesperees. Elles Ie font pour des raisons economiques, en
regie generale. C'est tres bien ... Je m'excuse, mais je ne
connais pas votre nom non plus.
M. Baker: Je m'appelle George.
Mr. Baker: It is George.
la
~u:.
I
Ms Miller: It is very nice what you are laying out here,
George, and I agree with Marie that there would be a large
percentage of girls that would leave. However, it is half a
story. Because what you are talking about, the majority of the
girls that are out there are coming from such abuse that there
are many other things that they will need to set certain other
self-motivating, goal-orienting things in motion.
nt,
~t·'
s" ,
Mme Miller: Le fait de leur donner plus d'argent ne reglera
qu'une partie du probleme.
M. Baker: Expt1quez-moi ce que vous entendez par la.
Mr. Baker: Explain that.
,~"
Mme Miller: C'est tres bien ce que vous dites la, George, et
je suis d'accord avec Marie qu'un grand nombre de filles
quitteraient Ie metier. Mais vous n'avez qu'un cote de I'histoire. La majorite de ces filles sont Ie produit de tels abus qu'il
faudrait trouver Ie moyen de leur apprendre a se motiver et a
se fixer des objectifs.
M. Baker: Qu'entendez vous par la?
Mr. Baker: What do you mean?
Ms Miller: So simply saying, Let us give them more money,
, is only a part of it.
lis "
2:49
Ms Miller: Okay. Now, I am going from my experience on
the street, on and off over many, many years. When you are
dealing with new girls on the street it may be true that the
money would suffice to get them off. If, in fact, the reason
they were on the street was strictly economical.
Mme Miller: Je vais vous parler de mon experience personnelle irreguliere du trottoir qui porte sur plusieurs annees. Le
fait d'augmenter les prestations d'assistance socia Ie suffirait
dans Ie cas des filles qui viennent de commencer si, bien sur,
elles font Ie trottoir pour des raisons purement economiques.
M. Baker: Et c'est la majorite.
Mr. Baker: It is the majority.
Ms Miller: But because of the legal and social environment
and the abuse that is inherent in that on the street, a certain
set of psychological dynamics come into play. It is not unlike
many of the things we have watched with holocaust survivors.
I think we have all been left a little aghast by the story of the
man in the glass booth, Maximillian Schell's story of somehow
you become many parts, that somehow there is a twist and you
begin to lick the hand that whips you and somehow you begin
to require that. Girls who have been on the street a long time
have to address that as well.
Mme Miller: Notre environnement juridique et social et les
abus inherents a la vie dans la rue font qu'un ensemble de
facteurs psychologiques entrent en ligne de compte. Vous
savez, les survivants de I'holocauste ont montre certains
symptomes semblables. Je pense que nous avons tous ete
etonnes par I'histoire de I'homme dans la cabine de verre,
I'histoire de Maximillian Schell qui montre que nous sommes
tous composes de divers elements et que d'aucuns finissent par
embrasser la main de leur tortionnaire et avoir besoin de ce
contact. Les filles qui ont fait Ie trottoir pendant longtemps
doivent egalement tenir compte de ces aspects.
les,
;a.j'
;t
I" .'
pas
jOl
• 1855
Now, what we have is a situation where, when they are in a
legitimate crisis and need to reach out because they are feeling
overwhelmed psychologically, they end up dealing with social
agencies that are treating them and what they did as the
disease, when in fact the disease is what the social and legal
environment has done to them, not prostitution. We need
people who are informed, willing to listen to us.
Nous avons donc des filles en pleine crise qui sont psychologiquement depassees et qui ont besoin d'aide. Mais elles
doivent faire affaire avec des organismes sociaux qui les
traitent, elles et leur travail, comme une maladie, alors que Ie
mal c'est Ie milieu social et juridique qui I'a fait et ce n'est pas
la prostitution en elle-meme. Nous avons besoin d'experts prets
a nous ecouter.
355
2: 50
BilI C-49
[Text]
I am talking about a particular set of girls. They no longer
feel they deserve anything. They begin to need that sort of
abuse. I am talking about a set of psychological dynamics that
we watch and accept as being common among any oppressed
people. If we are going to talk about dealing with them on the
street, we have to start talking about the things to address that
as well. How can we give her messages to tell her and to start
to root out of her the message that she deserves to be on the
street? How can we start to root out of her that twist we have
put into her head? That can be done only with informed
counselling that wilI listen to what we are doing and will see us
as people suffering from a very common problem, a set of
psychological dynamics, and not as prostitutes.
22-10-1985
[Translation]
Je vous parle du cas de certaines filles. Elles ont l'impression
qu'elles n'ont droit a rien. Elles finissent par avoir besoin de ce
genre d'abus. Je vous parle d'un comportement bien connu et
qui est propre aux peuples opprimes. Nous devons commencer
par parler de ce genre de choses avant de pouvoir les rejoindre
dans la rue. II faut se demander comment leur faire comprendre qu'elles meritent mieux que la rue? II faut trouver moyen
de supprimer chez elles cette notion que nous leur avons
inculquee. Nous avons besoin de conseillers bien formes qui
seront capables de nous ecouter et de voir que nous souffrons
de problemes reels et communs, de problemes psychologiques
et qui nous verront autrement que comme des prostituees.
I want to say also that I have always .felt that under
decriminalization we would see a tremendous exodus of girls
out of the business, and it would be particularly visible on the
street. Under decriminalization, a lot of the girls that have
been trapped ... Those of us who have been in the business
any length of time have an understanding that, if you are in
the business one or two years-and you could maybe even go
into three-and you are dealing with it as a business, the
messages are not going to be so overwhelming that you will be
able to get in and get out.
rai toujours eu l'impression que la decriminalisation de la
prostitution reduirait considerablement Ie nombre de filles qui
s'adonnent a ce metier et que Ie resultat serait tres visible
surtout dans la rue. Beaucoup de filles qui se sont vues prises
au piege pourraient, si Ie metier etait decriminalise . " Celles
d'entre nous qui se sont adonnees a cette activite pendant un
certain nombre d'annees savent tres bien qu'on peut Ie
pratiquer jusqu'a trois ans et etre encore capables d'en sortir.
It is a fast burn-out business, by the way, in the best of
circumstances. It is like social work and nursing and teaching,
and politics is a fast burn-out business. But even in the best
circumstances, it is a fast burn-out business and girls tend to
get trapped in it. After two or three years, if they have not
gotten out by then, they are about has started to come into
play.
Mais c'est un metier qui epuise dans Ie meilleur des cas.
C'est comme Ie travail social, Ie nursing, l'enseignement et la
politique. Ce sont des activites qui epuisent. Dans Ie meilleur
des cas, les filles se brUlent tres tot et restent prises au piege. Si
elles n'ont pas change de metier au bout de deux ou trois ans,
elles ne peuvent plus s'en sortir. Ce sont les facteurs qui
entrent en ligne de'compte.
Under decriminalization, with the ability of self-help groups,
economic assistance, giving positive messages to the prostitute
in so many ways and all those things that would go with that,
we would see that, for many, many of the girls who have been
trying to get out of the business a long time but cannot make
that move, that would be facilitated. What we would see,
however, are girls who are suited to the profession and are
choosing the profession staying in. Maybe we might even add a
few, but by and large, there would be a tremendous exodus.
Si la prostitution etait decriminalisee, que des groupes
d'entraide etaient crees, qu'une aide financiere etait offerte, les
prostituees qui essaient d'en sortir depuis longtemp~ mais n'y
parviennent pas se verraient faciliter la tache. Les filles qui Ie
souhaitent et qui ont les talents necessaires pourraient decider
de continuer a pratiquer la profession. Quelques-unes meme
viendraient s'ajouter a nos rangs mais en regIe genera Ie, je
pense que beaucoup d'entre nou&quitteraient la profession.
The Chairman: Thank you. The next speaker I have on the
list is Mr. Ravis, followed by Mr. Tobin, followed by Mr.
Robinson. If the committee has no objection, we will go to fiveminute turns now.
Le president: Je vous remercie. M. Ravis sera Ie prochain
intervenant suivi de M. Tobin et de M. Robinson. Si Ie Comite
n'y voit pas d'objection, nous Iimiterons main tenant les
interventions a cinq minutes.
Mr. Ravis: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Maybe you touched on this earlier; I was at another
meeting. I am wondering what the average income is of a
prostitute.
Ms Miller: Oh, God, stop counting our money, please.
M. Ravis: Merci, monsieur Ie president.
Peut-etre avez-vous aborde la question plus tot, mais j'etais
a une autre reunion. Pouvez-vous me dire a combien s'eleve Ie
revenu moyen d'une prostituee?
Mme Miller: Essayons d'arreter de parler d'argent, je vous
prie.
Mr. Ravis: I will tell you why I am asking the question. I
have heard, primarily through the media, of some very, very
large numbers, and this is an opportunity to ask if this is true
or false.
M. Ravis: Laissez-moi vous expliquer pourquoi j'ai pose
cette question. rai entendu dire, surtout par les medias, qu'il
pouvait s'agir de sommes faramineuses. C'est pourquoi je
profite de l'occasion de vous demander si c'est vrai ou non.
Ms Crawford: On the street level, it is false. I have stood out
there personally. On Tuesday night it poured rain, and I stood
Mme Crawford: Pour les filles qui font Ie trottoir, c'est faux.
Je I'ai fait moi-meme. II pleuvait a boire debout mardi soir et
356
22-10-1985
2: 51
Projet de loi C-49
[Texte)
out there for eight hours and made $50. I have stood out there
on other nights and not made a dime. Then there are other
nights when I have made a few hundred dollars. It varies a lot,
for one thing.
[Traduction]
je n'ai fait que 50$ en huit heures. J'ai fait Ie trottoir certains
autres soirs sans rien gagner. Mais il y a par contre des soirs ou
j'ai fait quelques centaines de dollars. Cela varie beaucoup.
• 1900
But street prostitutes, no, they do not make a fortune. As for
escorts, I am not aware ... I have never worked as an escort. I
have been on the streets, strictly, for four years.
Les prostituees qui font Ie trottoir ne font vraiment pas
fortune. Pour les escortes, je ne sa is pas ... Je n'ai jamais fait
ce travail. Cela fait meme quatre ans que j'ai fait Ie trottoir.
Mr. Ravis: So on an annual basis, you are telling me it is
either nothing or $200,000.
M. Ravis: Donc cela revient
dans une annee.
Ms Crawford: I am just getting by. I do not have a big bank
account. I have furniture and my daughter d~s have a few
nice things, yes; but she deserves a lot of nice things, and so do
I. But no, I am just getting by. I do not have a big bank
account.
Mme Crawford: C'est a peine si je joins les deux bouts. Je
n'ai pas un gros compte en banque. J'ai quelques meubles et
rna fille a quelques belles choses, d'accord. Mais elle les
merite, tout comme moi d'ailleurs. Je me debrouille, mais je
n'ai pas un gros compte en banque.
Cathy: I would like to respond as well, as being from the
escort service. The income is high enough. But please understand, we are different people, and you can make as little
money as you need-and many women are like that. Maybe
they are of the women are into doing other things. They write,
they draw, they paint, they do things, they dance, the travel,
and they will make as little as possible, just to get by. As in
any business, we are diverse. We are different people. We are
not stamped out of one prostitute mould, where every prostitute is the same as every other prostitute. We are all different
from one another. We are different people.
Cathy: Je peux vous dire ce qu'il en est pour les services
d'escorte puisque fen suis. Nos revenus sont assez eleves. Mais
essayez de com prendre que nous sommes un petit peu differentes. Nous pouvons gagner aussi peu d'argent que nous voulons
et il y a beaucoup de femmes comme cela. II peut s'agir
d'etudiantes ou de femmes qui prMerent faire une petite vie
tranquille. II y a beaucoup de femmes aussi qui font autre
chose. Elles ecrivent, dessinent, peignent, dansent, voyagent et
se contentent du minimum. Nous sommes toutes differentes,
comme dans n'importe secteur. Vous savez, il n'y a pas un seul
type de prostituees. Nous sommes toutes differentes les unes
des autres. Nous sommes des personnes bien differentes.
Now when you said money ... it is not exactly what your
question is, but I just felt I really wanted to answer this. Most
of us in escorting file in<;ome tax. I pay tax on all- the dollars
from my prostitution. Most of us do, because in fact we want
to. I think most of us would like to think of ourselves as being
halfway reasonable citizens. We pay tax. Everybody else does;
why should we not? I have a chartered accountant. Of course I
am dealing with credit cards as well. Every dollar is written
down, cash or credit card. I take it to my account. I give all my
money to my accountant when it comes through. We try.
Mais vous avez par1e d'argent? Cela ne repond peut-etre pas
directement 11 votre question mais j'avais envie de dire quelque
chose. La majorite des employes des services d'escorte font des
declarations d'impOt. Je paie des impOts sur les revenus de mes
activites de prostitution. Nous Ie raisons parce que nous Ie
voulons bien. Je parle pour la majorite. Nous nous considerons
pour la plupart comme des citoyens a peu pres raisonnables.
Nous payons des impots. Tout Ie monde Ie fait, alors pourquoi
pas nous? Je retiens les services d'un comptable agree.
J'accepte aussi des cartes de credit. Chaque dollar de revenus
est inscrit qu'il s'agisse de comptant ou de credit. Je remets a
mon comptable tout mon argent lorsqu'il me parvient. Nous
raisons notre possible.
Ms Miller: I want to answer that, because you seem really
anxious to count our money for us. Everyone is always very
anxious to count our money. Somehow it has always gone that
if we can quote the figures big enough, then look how much
they are making, so what if they are going through a lot of
abuse, they are getting paid well enough for it. That is inherent
so many times when money is talked about. Abuse is unacceptable, I do not care how much you are making.
Mme Miller: Je vais aussi prendre la parole parce que vous
etes vraiment desireux de connaitre notre situation moneta ire.
Tout Ie monde est toujours desireux de connaitre notre
situation moneta ire. Si les sommes que nous mention nons sont
assez elevees, d'aucuns pretendent, lorsque nous sommes
victimes d'abus, que nous sommes payees pour Ie prendre.
C'est souvent sous-entendu quand nous parlons d'argent. Les
abus sont toujours inacceptables, meme si nous gagnons
beaucoup.
I do not care how much you are making. r am sure, sir, that
at least 20 street ladies could live very successfully on your
salary. But does that mean because you are getting a high
salary it is okay to abuse you? It is not.
Peu m'importe ce que vous gagnez, monsieur. Je suis
persuadee que votre salaire suffirait pour faire tres bien vivre
une vingtaine de filles. Cela ne veut pas dire pour autant que
l'on doit abuser de vous.
The other thing I want to mention is that there are among
the girls girls who are good business managers. Not everyone is
II y a certaines de ces filles qui sont d'excellentes administratrices. On ne choisit pas ses competences. Je ne pourrais
-'
a rien
ou
a 200,000$
dollars
357
Bill C-49
2: 52
22-10-1985
[Text}
[Translation]
cut out for every business. I could never be a nurse. I cannot
stand the idea of nursing. For me to go into nursing I would be
a complete failure. It would be on a survival level, period. Not
everyone is cut out to be a prostitute. Things are required from
a prostitute that are peculiar to the business and suit only
certain types of people.
pas, par exemple, devenir infirmiere. Je ne reussirais jamais
dans cette branche. II s'agirait de rna survie et c'est tout. Mais
la meme chose vaut pour les prostituees. Tout Ie monde n'a pas
les talents necessaires. Le metier com porte des exigences
particulieres qui ne conviennent pas a certaines personnes.
The women who have the combination of goal
orientation ... good business managers; they are suited to their
work ... it is like anything in private industry ... and I am
sure a few other variables we can throw in there. Yes, they will
make some good money. What we are saying here is that the
legal and social situation is set up, however, such that if you do
not have those variables, you get abused and do not get well
paid for it, and if you have those variables you get paid for
being abused. That is the point of this discussion.
Les femmes qui savent se fixer des objectifs, qui sont bonnes
administratrices et qui ont les aptitudes necessaires pour faire
Ie travail ... C'est comme l'industrie privee... Et je suis
persuadee qu'i! existe beaucoup d'autres variables. Qui, elles
peuvent gagner beaucoup. Mais dans notre contexte juridique
et social actuel, les filles qui n'ont pas ces aptitudes sont
victimes de toutes sortes d'abus et sont mal payees. Ainsi, ces
elements existent, on vous paie pour que vous acceptiez que
l'on abuse de vous. C'est la ou je voulais en venir.
Mr. Ral'is: Personally, I am having some problems here
between people who say there is really nothing else, I am down
to just about starving-it could be you and your little girl or
little boy-to the point where some of you are saying, look, I
have this all set up, I have a chartered accountant. I would
suggest you are probably making a lot more money than I am
as a Member of Parliament. And that is fine. That is your
decision.
M. Ravis: Mais il y a un probleme. Certaines disent qu'elles
reussissent a peine a joindre les deux bouts et a subvenir
leurs propres besoins et a ceux de leurs enfants et d'autres
parlent de leur comptable agree. Vous devez gagner beaucoup
plus qu'un simple depute comme moi. Mais vous etes libre de
choisir.
a
• 1905
No, I do not want to believe it. I think it is probably true,
but I am ...
Non, ce n'est pas que je veuille Ie croire, c'est que c'est
probablement vrai, mais je suis ...
Ms Miller: Unless you are willing to lay your salary on the
line to us here today I think we are just being hypothetical,
and I do not think you are willing to lay your salary on the
line, are you?
Mme Miller: Si vous n'etes pas dispose a nous divulguer ce
que vous gagnez, Cft sont de pures hypotheses, et je suis sure
que vous n'y etes pas dispose, n'est-ce pas?
Mr. Ravis: It is public knowledge what MPs' sa'laries are.
M. Ravis: Les traitements des deputes sont conn us de tous.
Ms Miller: Well, let us start laying salaries on the line. You
asked a question-
Mme Miller: Dans ce cas-la, parlons salaires. Vous demandiez ...
Mr. Ravis: Let me get back to the point I want to make, and
that is are there not other alternatives in life for you? In other
words, I know people as well who are having difficult times. I
do not think the world should turn to prostitution because
times are tough. In other words, are there other things people
can do out there? Are there ...
M. Ravis: Permettez-moi de revenir a mon argument, et de
vous demander si vous n'avez pas d'autres moyens de gagner
votre vie? Je connais bien des gens qui sont dans la deche et ce
n'est pas parce que les temps sont durs que tout Ie monde
devrait se prostituer. Y a-t-il d'autres travaux que vous
pourriez faire? Y a-t-il ...
Ms Crawford: Sure, if they are starving they can go out and
they can start stealing.
Mme Crawford: C'est certain: quand on meurt de faim on
peut se mettre a voler.
Mr. Ravis: No. I am suggesting people who are prepared to
'go out and do work that is available. Sure, you are not going to
be paid ...
M. Ravis: Non, je parle de gens qui sont disposes accepter
n'importe quel travail. II est certain que vous ne serez pas
payees ...
Ms Arrington: We would like to hear about the work that is
available.
Mme Arrington: Dites-nous donc quels sont les emplois
disponibles,
Ms Crawford: I am not afraid of work. Hard work is not
going to kill anybody. I am not afraid of work. What I do,
prostitution, is hard work right now.
Mme Crawford: Ce n'est pas Ie travail qui me fait peur,
travailler n'a jamais fait de mal a personne. Je ne recule pas
devant la besogne et Ie metier que je fais, la prostitution, est un
dur travail.
Mr. Ravis: I am sure it is.
Ms Crawford: I am not scared of hard work, but I am also
not going to work my butt for $3.65 an hour. I cannot live on
a
M. Ravis: J'en suis certain.
Mme Crawford: Je ne recule donc pas devant une besogne,
mais je ne vais pas non plus m'ereinter a 3.65$ l' heure. Avec
358
22-10-1985
Projet de loi C-49
$3.65 an hour. I have a three-year-old. Even if it was just me, I
cannot live on $3.65 an hour.
[Traduction]
un salaire pareil, je ne peux pas vivre. J'ai un enfant de trois
ans, mais meme si je ne travaillais que pour moi, je ne pourrais
pas vivre avec un salaire parei!.
Mr. Ravis: All right. So there are not any other alternatives
open to you.
M. Ravis: Autrement dit, vous n'avez pas d'autres possibilites.
Ms Crawford: I cannot find a job. I am qualified for a lot of
jobs. I cannot find a job right now.
Mme Crawford: J'ai les competences necessaires pour
plusieurs emplois, rna is je n'en trouve pas. A I'heure actuelle,
je ne trouve pas de travail.
Ms Miller: I think you are missing another point here, sir.
Prostitution is not against the law. What you are saying to us
with that question is that even though it is not against the
law-therefore it is seen legally as an acceptable alternative,
one we have a right to choose-if in fact we make that choice
then suddenly we have lost our case for pleading abuse. I do
not think you can have it both ways. Either it is legal and we
have a right to make that choice and heaping a bunch of
arbitrary laws on us to try to discourage that choice is
acceptable to you as a form of sort of subversive dictatorship
or you will respect the choice and say that no one in our society
should be punished for the choice they have a right to make.
You have to make a decision.
Mme Miller: Vous passez a cote d'un autre aspect de la
question, monsieur. La prostitution n'est pas illegale. En nous
posant cette question, vous no us dites que bien que ce ne soit
pas illegal-autrement dit, la prostitution est un choix comme
un autre, un choix que nous avons Ie droit de faire-mais si
nous Ie faisons, nous n'avons pas Ie droit de nous plaindre des
abus. Mais c'est I'un ou l'autre, et il faut choisir: si la prostitution est legale et si nous avons Ie droit de faire ce choix, c'est
une attitude arbitraire et tyrannique qui vous amene a essayer
de nous decourager en vous servant contre nous d'un arsenal de
lois arbitraires; mais si vous respectez notre choix, vous devriez
dire que nul dans notre societe ne devrait etre puni pour un
choix qu'il a Ie droit de faire. Vous devez prendre une decision
logique.
[TexteJ
.t
The Chairman: I would like to hear from Julie.
:e
,~
Ie
us
n
.er
e,,",\S~
Jis
2: 53
Julie: In reply to your question are there not other alternatives, I would like to say that I like my job. I intend to continue
my job. I would like to continue this job until I am 90. I like it
and I would like to stay in it. I do not care about the alternatives.
Le president: 1'aimerais entendre Julie.
Julie: Vous nous demandez si nous n'avons pas d'autres
possibilites, et je voudrais vous repondre que j'aime mon
travail. J'ai l'intention de continuer, de preference jusqu'a l'age
de 90 ans. 1'aime ce boulot, je veux Ie faire et je me moque des
autres possibilites. '
Mr. Ravis:Is it Julie or Judy?
~. ~avis:
Julie: Julie.
Julie: Julie.
Est-ce que vous vous appelez Julie ou Judy?
Mr. Ravis: Well, Julie, I guess why I am asking the question
is that I hear one end of the table saying they are being sort of
driven in this direction because they cannot exist on $3.75 but
I hear the other end of the table saying they have a pretty nice
business going with the CA and they have a pretty good thing
going here and they want to do this for the rest of their life.
That is the way it is.
M. Ravis: Si je vous pose cette question, Julie, c'est parce
qu'a un bout de la table on nous dit qu'on est accule a faire ce
travail parce qu'on ne peut survivre a 3.65$ l'heure, mais a
l'autre bout on me dit que c'est un joli metier, que les affaires
marchent bien et qu'on ne demande qu'a Ie faire pour Ie
rest ant de sa vie. Voila pourquoi je pose cette question.
Ms Arrington: There are two classes. There are the women
who work indoors and then there are the women on the street.
You will find by and large that the women on the street are the
women who come from working-class backgrounds. Those are
the children who were sexually abused and who are runaways
who grew up into adult prostitutes and are out there and they
do not enjoy their job. In fact, they would rather rob you or
kill you for your money, but they do what is least illegal out of
the whole situation. But we all find ways in which to survive
and we have a right.
Mme Arrington: II y a deux categories de femmes: celles qui
travaillent chez elles et celles qui font Ie trottoir. Vous
constaterez dans I'ensemble que ces dernieres sont souvent
d'origine ouvriere, qu'elles ont ete sexuellement exploitees
quand elles etaient enfants, qu'elles se sont enfuies de chez
elles, sont main tenant adultes et prostituees et n'aiment pas ce
travail. Elles prHereraient, en realite, vous voler ou vous tuer
pour votre argent, mais elles s'en tiennent a ce qui est Ie moins
illegal. Mais nous trouvons toutes des' moyens de survivre et
nous avons des droits.
Ms Miller: But the fact that both classes exist does not
negate the fact in any way that we have a right to make those
choices and your decision on whether we should be protected in
that right, the right to exist, cannot be based on any of these
big-figure or small-figure amounts. It has nothing to do with
the principle of this entire thing.
Mme Miller: Mais la coexistence de deux categories ne
porte nullement prejudice a notre droit de faire ce choix. Et
notre droit a la protection, notre droit a survivre ne peut
dependre de ces chiffres, qu'ils soient grands ou petits. Cela n'a
rien a voir avec Ie principe sous-jacent.
359
Bill C-49
2: 54
[Text]
Mr. Ravis: I guess my problem is that I am old-fashioned
and I still believe in things like the family and all that.
22- 10-1985
[Translation]
M. Ravis: J'ai du mal a concevoir cela parce que j'ai encore
les idees d'autrefois, et que je crois en la famille et en d'autres
valeurs de ce genre.
Mme Miller: Ce n'est pas la premiere fois qu'on nous
raconte cela.
Ms Miller: I have heard that before.
• 1910
Ms Miller: By the way, family men have been coming to
prostitutes since the beginning of time, and somehow ...
Mme Miller: Nous comptons d'ailleurs les peres de famille
parmi nos meilleurs clients et ce depuis la nuit des temps, et
pourtant ...
A Witness: As a matter of fact, family men are the men who
use our services.
Un temoin: Ce sont justement les peres de famille qui ont
besoin de nous.
Mr. Ravis: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
M. Ravis: Je vous remercie, monsieur Ie president.
The Chairman: Thank you, Mr. Ravis. I think-
Le president: Je vous remere ie, monsieur Ravis. Je crois ...
Ms Miller: And, in fact, many marriages today are held
together on the backs of prostitutes, I might add. There are
many men who love their wives, love their children, love their
future together, but find an incompatibility in a certain area.
Because that incompatibility does not override the good
features of that marriage, he opts to stay in the marriage. But
he still feels he should have a right to seek out gratification of
that level, as he defines gratification at whatever level he
needs, and seeks out the prostitute. Many men tell us-in fact,
it is a classic-they pull out pictures of the wife. They are here
because they do not want to put the marriage in jeopardy; they
do not want to put strains on the marriage.
Mme Miller: Laissez moi vous dire que si beaucoup de
mariages tiennent de nos jours, c'est grace aux prostituees. II
ne manque pas d'hommes qui aiment leurs enfants et leur
femme et ne voient pas d'autre avenir qu'avec eux, rna is qui
souffrent neanmoins d'une certaine incompatibilite. Cette
incompatibilite, ce vide ne suffit pas a ebranler Ie mariage, et
c'est pourquoi l'homme choisit d'y rester. Mais il n'en a pas
moins envie de trouver une autre satisfaction a ce niveau, quel
que soit Ie niveau ou iI trouve sa satisfaction, et c'est chez la
prostituee qu'il Ie cherche. Les hommes nous en parlent
souvent, c'est bien connu, ils nous montrent meme des
photographies de leurs femmes. lis viennent nous voir parce
qu'i1s ne veulent pas compromettre leur mariage ou Ie remettre
en question.
Now, I am not saying that is the best way to deal with an
incompatibility, and in fact I have talked with customers on
this. But it is their choice and their right to make that choice,
and unless .you are willing to try to start legislating sexuality in
that sense and say, hey, I am going to dictate to you as a
government how you are going to deal with your social
problems; I am going to dictate to you how you are going to
deal with your wife; I am going to dictate to you where you
can place your penis and for what reason-I know it sounds
stupid when I say it-you are smiling-but it is just that
stupid, and it is that feebleminded, and it will be seen as
nothing other than feeblemindedness, this whole business, in
another hundred years when they look back on us historically-you have to acknowledge two things: a right to exist,
and a right to equal protection in that choice; and you cannot
tell me it has anything to do with the majority. People have a
right to exist-black, white, Jews, prostitutes-
Je ne pretends pas que ce soit Ie meilleur moyen de remedier
a une incompatibilite, et fen ai meme parfois discute avec des
clients. Mais c'est Ie choix qu'ils ont fait et i1s en ont Ie droit,
et a moins que vous ne soyez decides a legiferer sur les
questions sexuelles, a decreter en tant que gouvernement
comment doivent se regler les problemes sociaux, comment un
homme doit vivre avec sa femme, quelles sont les satisfactions
sexuelles qui lui sont permises et pour que lies raisons-je vous
fais sourire, parce que cela vous parait stupide, et ~a l'est peutetre, et d'ici cent ans peut-etre toute cette histoire nous
paraitra ridicule-mais vous devez reconnaitre deux choses:
notre droit a l'existence, et notre droit a la meme protection
une fois que nous avons fait ce choix. Ne venez pas me dire que
cela a quoi que ce soit a faire avec la majorite: les gens, qu'i1s
soient noirs, blancs, juifs ou prostitues, ont Ie droit d'exister.
Mr. Ravis: That is getting back to the other question. I ...
M. Ravis: Vous debouchez la sur une autre question. Je ...
Ms Miller: -Hebrews, Moslems, communists. That is what
this is founded on.
Mme Miller: ... Qu'i1s soient bebreux, musulmans ou
communistes. C'est ~a Ie principe fonda mental.
The Chairman: Order, please! The answer has absolutely
nothing to do with the question he asked.
Le president: A l'ordre, s'i1 vous plait! II n'y a aucun lien
entre 1a reponse et la question qui a ete posee.
Ms Miller: I do not perceive it that way.
The Chairman: You have drifted well away from the gist of
his question.
Mr. Tobin, you have something to add to this, I believe.
Mme Miller: Ce n'est pas ainsi que je vois les choses.
Le president: Vous vous etes considerablement ecartee de la
question.
Monsieur Tobin, vous avez quelque chose a ajouter, je crois.
360
22-10-1985
Projet de loi C-49
[Texte]
Ms Miller: Were you adequately answered?
2: 55
[Traduction]
Mme Miller: Ai-je bien repondu a votre question?
Mr. Ravis: Yes, thank you very much.
M. Ravis: Oui, je vous remercie beaucoup.
Ms Miller: Thank you very much.
Mme Miller: Merci beaucoup.
Mr. Tobin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
M. Tobin: Je vous remercie, monsieur Ie president.
I came here today with an open mind and basically an
uninformed mind about this whole question, and I must say
that I have been surprised at the abilities of the witnesses
before us to make their caSe. I tell you that you are a very
articulate group of people.
Je suis venu aujourd'hui sans prejuges, mais sans bien
connaitre la question, et je reconnais que j'ai ete surpris par
l'eloquence de nos temoins. Voila des gens qui savent ce que
parler veut dire!
I have been struck, as I sit here listening ... First of all, a
couple of things have hit me that I would like you to comment
on. One is the point you made over and over again, which I
think is one that many people in society do nof deal with, and
that is that prostitution is legal, it is not illegal. We seem to
discuss the matter and talk about the matter as if it were an
illegal activity-tainted tuna, or something or other, that you
ought not to put on the store sheIL Is that true?
Ales ecouter, j'ai ete frappe ... Tout d'abord, j'ai ete frappe
par un certain nombre d'arguments que j'aimerais vous voir
developper. A maintes reprises vous avez souligne que la
prostitution est autorisee, et non illegale, et c'est un aspect de
la question que beaucoup de gens ignorent. Nous semblons en
discuter comme s'il s'agissait d'une activite iIlegale-le
commerce de thon avarie, par exemple, ou autre chose de ce
genre, qu'il faudrait retirer des magasins. Est-ce exact?
e
Ms Miller: I watched the whole debate. I do not want to
know.
Mme Miller: J'ai suivi tous les debats, et je prefere ne pas
savoir.
a
Mr. Tobin: I am serious. You made the point many times,
and you have made an important point. I do not know if I am
right, but I almost hear you saying to this committee: Make up
your mind, Parliament. Either it is legal or it is not.
M. Tobin: Je suis tout a fait serieux. Vous avez rep6te cet
argument plusieurs fois, et c'est un argument important.
J'interprete peut-etre mal votre intention, rna is j'ai presque
l'impression que vous dites a ce Comite: decidez vous, legislateurs: c'est legal ou «;a ne l'est pas, I'un ou l'autre.
,,
Ms Miller: Yes.
Mme Miller: C'est bien cela.
Ms Crawford: I want to know if I am going to go to jail
when I go to work.
t,
Mr. Tobin: And Parliament, either it is legal ...
M. Tobin: Et que Ie Parlement nous dise si c'est legal ...
Ms Miller: That is right.
Mme Miller: C'est bien cela.
Mr. Tobin: -and tell us it is legal-quit playing games-or
have the courage to make it illegal.
M. Tobin: ... Et cessez de tourner autour du pot et dites
nous, sans circonlocutions, que c'est legal, ou ayez Ie courage
de Ie declarer illegal.
Cathy: Well, the government is willing to take our tax
dollars.
Cathy: Mais Ie gouvernement ne demande pas mieux que de
percevoir des impots sur nous.
Mr. Tobin: Let me finish. I would like you to comment on it.
M. Tobin: Laissez-moi terminer. Je voudrais que vous
commentiez cela.
Cathy: Sorry.
ou
n.
Cathy: Excusez moi.
Mr. Tobin: The other one is that I genuinely believe there is
an incredible dichotomy here. I mean, as I listen to Marie-I
'know where Marie comes from; I have heard, briefly here
today--'-not very much-her life's experiences-I hear a story
of victims, victims of circumstance, a profession of necessity. I
hear a very bitter sound coming through. I hear somebody who
resents very much and is angry at the cards that have been
dealt to that individual in life.
M. Tobin: L'autre chose qui m'a frappee, c'est que nous
nous trouvons ici devant une extraordinaire dichotomie. Quand
J'ecoute Marie-et je sais d'ou elle vient, elle nous a parle
brievement de son passe-j'entends une histoire de victime,
victime des circonstances, qui a choisi ce metier par necessite.
J'entends, en sourdine dans votre recit, une note tragique, et j'y
lis Ie ressentiment et la colere d'une personne devant son lot,
son destin.
• 1915
I hear, on the other hand, another story where people are
saying: This is my choice; this is the choice I make. I make it
willingly, and given another option, I might not have chosen
the. other option; I would choose to do what I am doing. You
is.
Mme Crawford: Je veux savoir si je suis passible de prison
quand je travaille. i
Mais j'entends egalement, par ailleurs, des gens qui disent:
c'est Ie metier que j'ai choisi, en toute Ii berte, et je n'en
changerai pour rien au monde. Vous disiez tout a l'heure que
l'histoire de Marie ne comportait qu'un seul aspect de la
question, et je commence a croire qu'elle en a deux.
361
2: 56
Bill C-49
[Text]
22-10-1985
[Translation]
said a while ago that Marie's comments were only half the
story, and I am beginning to believe there are two stories.
Ms Miller: But they are the same story.
Mme Miller: Mais il s'agit de la meme histoire.
Mr. Tobin: There is a common cause here, but two stories,
two separate and ...
M. Tobin: Vous faites cause commune en l'occurrence, mais
il y a deux histoires, distinctes et ...
Ms Miller: But they are the same story, because the
victimization comes from not having the right to make the
choice. They are victimized because the legal and social
environment has not allowed them the choice. We are part of
the same story. You cannot address the situation Marie is
talking about until you first acknowledge the right to make the
choice and the right to protections, the right to the same
resources, legal, social, judicial and so forth, as everyone else.
Mme Miller: Mais il s'agit de la meme histoire, car il y a
victime, Ii ou il n'y a pas possibilite de choisir. Le milieu social
et legal a fait de nous des victimes, parce qu'il ne nous a pas
permis de choisir, nous acteurs dans la meme trag6die. Vous ne
pouvez chercher une solution a la situation dont parle Marie
que si vous lui reconnaissez d'abord Ie droit de faire Ie choix Ie
droit de ooneficier d'une protection, Ie droit aux memes
ressources legales, sociales et autres que tout Ie monde.
Mr. Tobin: Let me ask this question. This is the question I
wanted to come to. I am not an expert, and perhaps some of
the permanent members of this committee are; I am not a
permanent member of this committee. My colleague said they
were asking questions and that I should come and listen, which
is what I have done today.
M. Tobin: Permettez-moi de vous poser la question a
laquelle je voulais arriver. Je ne suis pas specialiste de la
question, d'autres membres permanents du Comite Ie sont
peut-etre, et moi je ne suis pas membre permanent. Mon
collegue m'a dit qu'on posait des questions et que je devrais
venir ecouter, et c'est ce que j'ai fait aujourd'hui.
Surely there are different ways of legislating or governments' responding to prostitution in various countries of the
world. Surely not all of them deal in exactly the same manner
as Canada does or produce the kind of legislation we see before
us today. What I am asking you is: If you were to pick a model
that from your point of view is the best around-and there
may not be a best; there may be varying degrees of difficultyif you were to pick a model in whatever country that you think
represents how government ought to respond from your point
of view, tell me ...
Mais il y a certainement differentes fa~ons de legiferer ou
des reactions des gouvernements a la prostitution, selon les
pays. Tous ne la traite certainement pas exactement de la
meme fa~on que Ie Canada et ne promulguentpas Ie meme
genre de loi. Voici donc la question que je voulais vous poser: si
vous preniez pour modele celui qui vous paralt Ie meilleur--et
il se peut qu'il n'yen ait pas, que tous presentent des difficultes-si vous deviez designer la loi d'un pays comme modele a
suivre pour notre,gouvernement, de votre point de vue, ditesmoi ...
Ms Miller: There is no model.
Mme Miller: II n'y a pas de modele.
Mr. Tobin: Well, I do not know. I am asking you. Tell me
what that model is.
M. Tobin: Mais je vous Ie demande simplement, dites-moi
ce que ce modele pourrait etre.
Ms Crawford: The street girls have said that all they want is
a place to work; they do not want to be around the residents.
Since we have been moved into a warehouse district, the girls
are happy; the residents are happy we are away. The girls want
to be left alone to work. They do not beat up people ...
Mme Crawford: Les prostituees ont dit que tout ce qu'elles
veulent, c'est un lieu de travail, elles ne veulent pas rester dans
les beaux cartiers. Elles sont contentes qu'on nous ait deplaces
dans Ie cartier des entrepots, et les residents du quartier
residentiel sont contents que nous soyons partis. Les filles
veulent qu'on les laisse travailler en paix, elles n'agressent
personne ...
Mr. Tobin: So you are telling me that no other country in
the world, in your ...
M. Tobin: Vous me dites donc qu'il n'y a pas d'autre pays au
monde qui, a votre ...
Ms Crawford: They want it decriminalized. No, the girls
want it decriminalized and to be left alone to work.
Mme Crawford: Les filles veulent que la prostitution soit
decriminalisee, et elles veulent qu'on les laisse travailler en
paix.
Ms Miller: There is no country where there is decriminalization or abolishment of the laws against prostitutes. In
countries where it is legal, such as Peru, it is run by the
military. In countries such as Korea, it is run by the Ministry
of Tourism. In Third World countries, they just do not use the
word "prostitute". Once a woman has prostituted herself, they
just turn her into a slave and then they ask how many slaves
they have to deal with.
Mme Miller: II n'y a pas de pays ou la prostitution ait ete
decriminalisee, ou on ait aboli les lois contre les prostituees.
Dans les pays ou la prostitution est legale, Ie Perou par
exemple, ce sont les militaires qui la reglementent. Dans les
pays comme la Coree, c'est Ie ministere du tourisme. Dans les
pays du Tiers-monde, Ie mot «prostituee. a disparu. Lorsqu'une
femme se prostitue, on en fait une esclave et on recense alors
les escla ves.
Ms Arrington: In Nevada, where it is legal, it is run by the
county. So the county is the pimp. So no matter what country
Mme Arrington: Au Nevada, ou la prostitution est legale,
elle est reglementee par Ie «county». Et c'est donc ce dernier
362
2: 58
Bill C-49
22-10-1985
[Text]
[Translation]
legalization, because in many ways it seems to me you are
really making the state a kind of pimp in the whole process. I
think that is fundamentally wrong. I personally support full
decriminalization. That is my own personal position and that
has been the position I have taken as long as I have been an
elected representative. I think it is interesting, this whole
question of prostitution and the commoditization of sexual
relations, because that is what it is after all. To a certain
extent it reflects the role of women in our society. It is
interesting that there are not an awful lot of heterosexual men
who are acting as prostitutes for women. It is a one way street,
by and large, which I think largely reflects that role, the kind
of exploited role of women in our society.
donnez en quelque sorte a I'Etat Ie rOle de souteneur. Amon
avis, c'est fondamentalement injuste. Personnellement, je suis
en faveur d'une decriminalisation totale. Voila la position que
j'adopte personnellement et c'est celie que j'ai toujours ado pte
en tant que depute elu. Toute cette question de prostitution et
Ie fait de faire des relations sexuelles une marchandise, car
c'est de cela qu'il s'agit apres tout, eveille mon interet. Jusqu'a
un certain point, era permet de voir quel rOle jouent les femmes
dans notre societe. II faut remarquer qu'il n'y a pas beaucoup
d'hommes heterosexuels qui se prostituent pour les femmes. Le
probleme n'existe donc, en quelque sorte, que dans un sens
seulement, ce qui, a mon sens, illustre bien I'exploitation dont
sont victimes les femmes dans notre societe.
Mme Miller peut peut-etre nous dire ce qu'elle en pense.
Perhaps Ms Miller would like to comment. .
Ms Miller: , think the fact we do not find that so much is
because, by and large, women have not been in the income
bracket to afford this. As women are becoming more sexually
liberated, as they try to shed the madonna image, they are
becoming much more earthy aboui their sexual needs. I
believe, and I ha:ve heard many women say this, there are
many women, particularly women who have the funds with
which to afford prostitutes, who do not have the time for
dating. They are tired of the pretence of affection. They want
an earthy relationship. They have a biological feeling and they
want ·to gratify that feeling. It is a part of the human experience. They want to address it.
Mme Miller: On n'en voit pas beaucoup parce qu'en realite
les femmes n'ont pas les moyens de se Ie permettre. Au fur et a
mesure que les femmes se Iiberent sexuellement, elles tentent
de se departir de cette image de madonne, elles deviennent plus
realistes quant a leurs besoins sexuels. Je crois que beaucoup
de femmes I'ont mentionne, que beaucoup d'entre elles qui ont
les .moyens de se payer des prostitues, n'ont pas de temps a y
consacrer. Elles sont fatiguees de faire semblant de ressentir de
I'affection. Elles veulent avoir des rapports bien"terre a terre.
Elles ont un besoin biologique et elles veulent com bier ce
besoin. Cela fait partie de I'experience humaine. Elles veulent
ce qui leur revient.
I have had many women say to me, I wish I could do it.
However, they have not had the money to afford this. By and
large, it is men who have had the kinds of funds to afford this.
We have to break through all of these roles we have been given
as sexual people. Women are not supposed to be able to have
unemotional sex. That is what we have been told, but that is
not a reality. Women are quite capable of having relationships
based on lust without bitterness, fully agreeable. As human
beings, we are capable of a wide number of dimensions.
Bien des femmes ont dit j'aimerais bien pouvoir Ie faire.
Cependant, elles n'ont pas I'argent necessaire. De fayon
generale, ce sont I«s hommes qui en ont les moyens. Nous
devons changer ces'roles que nous avons attribue aux: gens en
tant qu'etres sexuels. Les femmes ne sont pas censees, capables
d'avoir des relations sexuelles sans emotion. C'est ce qu'on
nous a dit, mais ce n'est pas vrai. Les femmes peuvent tres bien
avoir des rapports fondes sur la lubricite sans remords et tout a
fait agreables. En tant qu'etres humains, nous avons plusieurs
visages.
There are many women today who are saying, I am coming
to terms with all of that. I would like to be able to pick up the
phone and have a male escort. I can afford it now. I do not
want to go through that whole stupid scene. This is not in the
sense that they want to make a man subservient any more than
many of our customers are interested in making us subservient.
Certainly that is not true of all, but ... They want that need
addressed.
Bien des femmes aujourd'hui disent j'accepte maintenant
tout cela. Je pourrais prendre I'appareil telephonique pour
demander un cavalier. Je peux Ie faire maintenant. Je n'ai pas
a invoquer toutes sortes de pretextes stupides. Ce n'est pas
qu'elles veulent asservir I'homme pas plus que beaucoup de nos
clients sont interesses aasservir la femme. Ce n'est pas vrai du
tout, mais ... elles veulent donner libre cours aun besoin.
• 1925
Ms Miller: But they want that need addressed. We did not
set up a world-wide commodity system. Everyone is just trying
to live by it. We put human life up for barter, and women now
that they are getting liberated are saying: Why not sex and
why can I not be on this end?
Mme Miller: Nous n'avons pas monte un reseau international. Chacun essaie d'y trouver son compte. Nous offrons notre
vie en echange, et les femmes qui sont main tenant Iiberees se
disent: Pourquoi pas Ie sexe et pourquoi ne serais-je pas de ce
cote-ci?
Mr. Robinson: Can I just ask a question? I appreciate..your
elaboration of that. I was reflecting what I think is by and
large the reality now that it is ...
M. Robinson: Puis-je vous poser une question? Je vous
remercie des precisions que vous apportez. Je reflechissais a ce
que j'appellerai la realite actuelle, autrement dit ...
Ms Miller: It is by and largely the reality now.
Mme Miller: De fayon generale, c'est la realite actueIlement.
363
Projet de loi C-49
22-10-1985
[Texte]
Mr. Robinson: I am not suggesting that reality might not
change, but I think the reality now reflects women's economic
position.
Ms Miller: Yes.
."
,n
IS
III
:n
:re
se
e
IUS
.£e
[Traduction]
M. Robinson: Je ne pretends pas que ceUe realite ne
pourrait pas changer, rna is je crois qu'elle traduit actuellement
la position economique des femmes.
Mme Miller: Oui.
Mr. Robinson: I wanted to ask you about, since we are not
going to be hearing from them, the question of male prostitutes
that was raised by my colleague George Baker. I do not know
whether any of you had an opportunity actually to discuss
their particular situation, but I think there is a very different
reality for some of them as well. I know that some of the young
men, for example, who are on the street are people who are, at
best, confused about their sexual orientation. They come from
maybe small towns where if they are suspected to be gay they
are ostracized or beaten, and the only kind oLacceptance they
get is on the street.
M. Robinson: Je voulais vous poser une question, etant
donne que nous ne les entendrons pas, au sujet des prostitues
males, dont a parle mon collegue George Baker. Je ne sais pas
si quelqu'un parmi vous a eu I'occasion de discuter de cette
situation, mais je crois que la realite est tres differente
egalement pour certains d'entre eux. Je sa is par exemple que
des jeunes gens qui font Ie trottoir sont tres desorientes, pour Ie
moins, au sujet de leur orientation sexuelle. lIs viennent de
petites villes ou on les regarde comme des homosexuels ils sont
mis au ban de la societe ou battus, ils ne sont acceptes que
dans la rue.
I wonder
situation of
tutes, if you
not going to
if any of you could comment on the particular
male prostitutes, particularly young male prostihave had an opportunity to raise that since we a.re
have an opportunity to hear from them.
Pourriez-vous me dire ce que vous pensez de cette situation
particuliere des prostitues males, surtout des jeunes, si vous
avez eu I'occasion d'en discuter, car nous n'aurons pas
I'occasion de les entendre.
Ms Arrington: Okay. I have had contact with some young
male prostitutes on the street. Most of them are also under the
age of 18. Most of them are also in care of the Ministry of
Human Resources. It is really ironic that most of them work
around Drake Street in front of emergency services where the
ministry can keep an eye on how many tricks they turn.
Mme Arrington: Tres bien. J'ai communique avec certains
prostitues males dans la rue. La plupart avaient moins de 18
ans. La plupart egalement sont sous la garde du ministere des
ressources humaines. C'est assez ironique que la plupart
d'entre eux travaillent pres de la rue Drake, devant les services
d'urgence ou Ie ministere peut garder un oeil sur leurs
fredaines.
The boys make money not from the gay male population as
people think but from the straight, heterosexual male population. It is the Mercedes and the Rolls and the big cars that
come down there and ask for the little boys. They have boys at
home of the same age-just as it is the same men who come
down and ask for the IO-year-old girls who have IO-year-old
little girls at home, the same' age. When these boys have lost
their baby look and their sweet look they do not get paid and
they have to dress as women in order to make money, which
confuses their sexuality even more.
Ces jeunes font de I'argent non pas a cause de leurs rapports
avec des homosexuels, comme on Ie croit, mais avec la
population d'heterosexuels males, norma Ie. Les voitures qui
s'arretent pour demander 'Ies services de ces jeunes gar~ons
sont des Mercedes, des Rolls et des grosses voitures. Ces clients
ont des jeunes gar~ns a la maison du meme age--de la meme
fa~on que ceux qui demandent les faveurs des petites filles de
10 ans ont egalement des filles a la maison de cet age. Lorsque
les jeunes gar~ons perdent leur visage poupin, leur air gentil,
ils ne re~oivent plus d'argent et ils doivent s'habiller enfant
pour faire de l'argent, ce qui les rend encore plus confus sur Ie
plan de la sexualite.
Mr. Robinson: How would you deal with the customers of
kids? You have referred to it-I think properly-as child
abuse. What would you do if you were sitting around the table
drafting the laws as we have to do?
M. Robinson: Comment traiteriez-vous les clients de ces
enfants? Vous avez mentionne-avec raison je crois-qu'il
s'agissait d'abus envers les enfants. Si vous etiez autour de
cette table, les responsables de la loi que feriez-vous?
The one area where there was agreement in the Justice
committee in 1983 when it considered this question was that
kids should not be thrown into jail-as this bill would allow, by
the way-but that customers in fact should be subject to
tougher sanctions.
Lorsque Ie Comite de la justice a siege 1983, on a etudie la
question et on est tombes d'accord pour dire que ces enfants ne
devraient pas etre incarceres--comme Ie permet ce projet de
loi-ci, je Ie souligne en passant-mais que les clients devraient
faire l'objet de sanctions plus severes.
nt
as
OS
2: 59
Do you believe that is the appropriate approach?
Ms Arrington: Not without alternatives for these kids. How
are these kids supposed to make money when you are throwing
their money-maker into jail? If you are locking up the
customer then how are these kids going to survive? They
cannot get welfare.
Croyez-vous que cela soit la la bonne
fa~on?
Mme Arrington: Pas s'il n'y a pas de solution de rechange
pour ces enfants. Comment pourront-ils vivre si ceux qui leur
fournissent de I'argent vont en prison? Si vous incarcerez Ie
client, comment les enfants pourront-i1s survivre? lis ne sont
pas admissibles aux prestations de bien-etre social?
Mr. Robinson: What is your alternative then?
M. Robinson: Quelle est la solution de rechange?
Ms Arrington: They cannot go in ...
Mme Arrington: lIs ne peuvent pas aller ...
364
This is Exhibit
C.
referred to in the affidavit of
_\)...::...:~=\-,-"e,-,-r-,-\X',,--=Sc-o=--,-~----,~______swom before me,
this ~~
day of_~c\"\. 2007
~:
..
365
E MER G E N C Y
R E.S 0 L UTI 0 N S
The Canadian Oraa~tion for the Rights of Prostitutes
asserts that the passing
0; ~l
C-49 and the recent targeting of
prostitutes around the A.I.D.S: issue have created a hostile
cl,imate which demands irrunediate attention and cannot be delayed
another year.
.,.
We propose the following emergency .resolutions
for approval at the 1986 annual meeting of the National Action
COffi\l1i ttee on the Status of Women.
WHEREAS Bill C-,49 threatens the right of all Canadians, women
1.
in particular, and more specifically prostitutes, THEREFORE BE IT
RESOLVED to work toward the repeal of Bill C-49.
2.
AND WHEREAS a law that criminalizes prostitutes or establishes
sp~cial
status of
pr6stitut~s
(i.e.
leg~slation)
is likewise a
threat to our rights I THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED the National Action
Committee on the Status of Women opposes all and any legislation
which seeks to limit the choices in the business and personal lives of
adult prostitutes including procuring, pimping and ba~dy house laws.
3.
AND WHEREAS given the problems inherent in the current world
commodity system sexual prostitution is as valid an occupation as
,
any other.
It represents the provision of a legitimate and
necessary service which. should be equally available to both men
and women (since levels of sexual need and/or opportunity can never
be, nor should ever be , standardized).
However, the proper provision
of seivice requites the removal of the profession from its
c~rrent
oppressive and corrupt situation, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the
National Action Committee <?n the Status of
Wome~
recognizes the
crucial role of prostitutes in establishing and carrying out their
priori ties as the,y struggle for empowermen t :Ln their working
environment.
CANADIAN ORGANIZATION FOR THE
RIGHTS
_R
ES
"~
/~(~
iller, Planning Hember
<.
366
This is Exhibit
b
referred to in the affidavit of
__~-'>!..<k.>L:...l.-'\Q"--,(',-,~~e_~"",,,-=Q"'---\-'----\-L--_ _ _ _sworn before me,
this
'd!b
day of~~ 2007
~..
A___~ neretc ...
\:"',.
\
,,'
IN CASE OF EMERGENCY:
iipa/eallaJ
SI!elap
6u!'1:JoI.IS
If cum gets in your cunt, squirt in Delfen or Emco foam with nonoxynol-9.
Nonoxynol-9 might kill the AIDS virus.
Test the foam on your wrist. If you get a rash,
I! is no! safe to use nonoxynol-9 instead of
You can use it with condoms. Some
NOTE: Using nonoxynol-9 in your ass could ca'uS€Nrrit<,(icm.
iSp JOMA 4m,i
IsalBJ P!Jnl
'iXld l!Olld){3
iX3:S H3:lVS
NEEDLE POINTS
It only takes one shared needle to give you AIDS. Don't share needles.
If you have to share a needle for shooting drugs, piercing or tattoos, clean it first.
To clean needles:
Draw bleach into the needle and squirt it out. Repeat several times to kill the virus ..:'.;
Then draw clean water into the needle and squirt it out. Repeat several times t~ rinse
out the bleach. Do not shoot the bleach.
Rubbing alcohol can be used instead of bleach, but beer or wine cannot.
a:AVHOJ. MOH
:UM PREPARED!
SAFER SEX. MAKE IT YOUR BUSINESS
Ise latex condoms. Lambskin condoms leak.
Ise water-based lube (Probe, ForePlay, K-Y).
'ii-based lubes (Vaseline, hand cream) break latex;
utting '. condom on: .
, If cock is uncut, pull fore~kin back ftrst.
, DO.not put lube on cock before putting condom on.
The condom could slip off.
· If condom doesn't have a nipple leave a half inch at
.
the tip to catch cum.
· Squeeze tip when rolling down condom to keep out
air bubbles. Bubbles can break condoms.
· Use lots of lube--especially for ass fucking. Add
more lube often. Dry condoms break more easily.
· Guys. If you cum in the condom while fucking, hold
the condom at the bottom, and pull out right away.
Throw condom away and wash up after.
(
This pamphlet was produced by prostitutes. Safer sex is our business.
If you have any questions we haven't answered, ~al1:
926-1626 or 392·AIDS
For free STD testing and treatment'call Hassle Free Clinic:
922·0566 (women) or 922-0603 (men)
Sex workers can also call the Prostitutes' Safe Sex Project:
588-9037 (women) or 964-0150 (men).
.'
''Next tilne I'll double bag."
Produced by the ProsUtutea' Sale Sax Project. Funded and distributed by the AIDS
Commltt.e of Toronto, Box 55, Station F, Toronto, i.14Y 2L4. Thanks to the Canadian
Organization for the Rights 01 Prostttuta., Joe Lobo (typesetting), Danny Moyen (layout), "ichard
Redwood Iillustrations\, Danny Cockerline (writing), and Xlral and the PWA Foundation (produc-
(
)
),
\
"
\
GOING DOWN
There may be a chance of getting AIDS if you get
or sores in your mouth. If you have cuts or
A condom can be cut up the side and spread
WHY SAFER SEX?
"
If you don't have cuts in your mouth,
down. You can get SIDs like
rimming (licking assholes
(Hepatitis B can be deadly;
)
If you don/t use
)
of getting an SID if
, 1. Do not brush
germs can get in
2. Wash cocks; cunts or
3. Do not lick anything that has
4. Gargle with mouthwash after to
You can't tell by
Someone could have the
Many people have gotten the
was monogamous and healthy.
. It's'better to have safer sex than be sorry!
SAFE STUFF
GET BUTCH WITH GERMS!
!\.,
Kissulg: You cannot get AIDS from spit or
sweat. It is safe to kiss and lick mouths, nipples, armpits, muscles, balls, ass cheeks, feet ...
If yoti always use condoms for fucking
and if you never share a needle for
shooting drugs, your chance of getting
AIDS is almost zero. (Condoms can also
stop herpes, syphilis and gonocrrhea.)
Hugging, touching, massage: All safe!
jacking off and fingering: Safe. But don't get
cum, blood or cunt juice into cuts or sores.
Dildos: Go for it. But don't stick a dildo, finger,
or cock into one person and then into another.
Don't even stick something into' one hole then
another on the same person without washing it.
Watersports: You cannot get AIDS from piss.
There is still a small chance that
condoms can break or leak. See the CUM
PREPARED section on the back to find oc
how to lower the risk of this happening.
"YJith Calgonite my dildos
come out spotless!"
"Take your pick, the condom
To be even safer, guys can pull out
before cumming while using a condom ..
Shooting on someone can be great fun
for you and your partner. And it's safe!
or the doll."
Showering with a friend after sex is fun and may wash away germs.
,\
~\
)
, )
J"
"
369
This is Exhibit
£.
referred to in the affidavit of
~\J"-,,o\~Q,-,-r-,-,'\e.=----S=---c.o~\:---,--\---,-----_ _ _ _ _swom before me,
this
J.2>
day of f'Il1J'{'(~ 2007
~~etc:
370
T'mgerlWhitehead inquiry report
http://www.walnet.orglcsislreports/junger_inquiry/index. html#contents
THE ONTARIO CIVILIAN COMMISSION ON POLICE
SERVICES
Report of an Inquiry into administration
of internal investigations by the
Metropolitan Toronto Police Force
August, 1992
28/1112006. 7:05 PM
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lungerfWhitehead inquiry report
371
TABLE OF CONTENTS
I.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
Preface
Introduction
Background
Case Chronology: Gordon Junger
Case Chronology: Brian Whitehead
The Junger Agreement
Role of the Police Services Board
Professional Standards and Deterrence
Treatment of Victims
Conclusion
Epilogue
Summary of Recommendations
Appendices
A.
B.
C.
D.
Terms of Reference of the Inquiry
List of Witnesses
List of Written Submissions
Comparative Study: Internal Affairs
and Citizens Complaints Units
Acknowledgements
The Inquiry panel would like to thank a nW11ber of individuals for
their assistance in connection with the conduct of the hearings, the
preparation of material for consideration by the panel, and the
production of the final report.
• Robert E. Russell, now retired, investigator for the Ontario
Civilian Commission on Police Services, who acted as a
special investigator for the Inquiry.
• W. Graydon Sheppard, who acted as counsel to the Inquiry.
• Mr. Justice Blenus Wright, who was counsel to the Inquiry
prior to his appointment to the Bench.
• Cathy Boxer, executive assistant to the Commission, who
aeted as special assistant to the Inquiry.
• Dora Goldberg, secretary to the Commission.
20f3
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'-mger/Whitehead inquiry report
• Christine Zabielski, clerical assistant to the Commission.
• Gordon Hampson, senior policy advisor to the Commission.
• Deborah Flak, who produced summaries of the transcripts of
the hearings.
• Cheryl Hamilton, who provided wliting services.
The InquilY panel would also like to acknowledge the contribution of
the representatives of six police services who took the time to
provide us with first-hand infoill1ation on the handling of internal
investigations and public complaints in their jurisdictions:
• Assistant Commissioner Geny Leahy, Royal Canadian
Mounted Police,
• Staff Sergeant David Matteson, Han1ilton-Wentworth
Regional Police Force,
• Inspector Fred Prather, Edmonton Police Service,
• Captain Thomas Callahan, New York City Police Department,
• Commander Clinton Donaldson, Detroit Police Department,
• Superintendent Gerald Furlong, Ontario Provincial Police.
In addition, Calvin Bond, instructor at the Ontario Police College,
provided infonnation on training for internal affairs investigators.
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373
THE ONTARJO CIV1LIAN COMMISSION ON POLICE
SERVICES
Report on an inquiry into administration of internal
investigations by the Metropolitan Toronto Police
Force
1.
Preface
This inquiry by the Ontario Commission on Police Services was
constituted to investigate the administration of the Metropolitan
Toronto Police Fqrce as it relates to internal investigations of
allegations of wrongdoing against members of the force. The Inquiry
was conducted pursuant to Section 58 of the Police Act by a panel of
three Commission members: Frank Mark D'Andrea (Chair), Jean
Margery Beauprie and .lulio Roberto Menezes.
Between October 1990 and March 1992, the Commission's Inquir
spent 53 days and held 13 evening sittings to hear more than 30
witnesses and legal argument presented by counsel for individuals
and organizations with standing at the Inquiry.
The temis ofreference (attached as Appendix A) included inquiry
into the force's policies, practices and procedures for intemal
investigations and their specific application to allegations against
forn1er Constable Gordon Junger. Thc terms of reference also
allowed the panel to consider any matters touching on the areas of
investigation that arose during the course of the Inquiry.
Another matter involving (formerly Sergeant) Brian Whitehead was
brought to the panel's attention during the course of its work and a
detailed study of the management of that case, including the hearing
of sworn testimony, was also conducted.
A major focus of the Inquiry was on the Internal Affairs unit of the
Metropolitan Toronto Police Force because the unit conducted the
investigations of both Junger and Whitehead.
Public notice of the Inquiry specially excluded consideration of any
matter which was referred to the Public Complaints Commissioner
pursuant to the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force Complaints
Act or any matter involving a shooting incident. However, the
relationship between Internal Affairs and the Office of the Public
Complaints Commissioner, now called the Police Complaints
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r'lUger/Whitehead Inquiry: Brian Whitehead
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Commissioner, emerged as an issue during the course of the InquilY.
The Office of the Commissioner was represented at the Inquiry.
The following individuals and organizations had standing before the
Inquiry and were represented by counsel: the Metropolitan Toronto
Police Services Board, the Chief of Police of Metropolitan Toronto,
the Metropolitan Toronto Police Association, the Internal AtIairs
unit of the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force, the Office of the
Police Complaints Commissioner, Franklina (Roma) Langford,
Gordon Junger and Jane Doe (The real name of the witness was kept
contldential at her request.).
The panel decided that an independent review of the files of Internal
AfIairs was required. Retired Justice R. E. Holland Q.C. was
retained to carry out the review ofInternal AtIairs files for the period
December 1984 through October 1990.
A submission to the Inquiry by Alan Story, formerly a reporter with
the Toronto Star included information about a number of cases
which the author argued revealed significant flaws in the way the
Metropolitan Toronto Police Force dealt with alleged wrongdoing by
officers of the force.
The Inquiry panel instructed an investigator for the Ontario Civilian
Commission on Police Services and Commission counsel to examine
those cases raised in the Story submission which involved an
investigation or review of an investigation by the Internal Affairs
unit. Internal Affairs' files and other documentation, including court
transcripts in some cases, were examined. Where possible,
individuals outside the force who had knowledge of the cases, such
as victims and Crown Attorneys, were contacted and interviewed.
Some of the more impOitant witnesses did not respond to requests
for intonnation or were otherwise uncooperative.
The work of the investigator and counsel on behalf of the Inquiry
resulted in a report documenting what could be ascertained about
four cases. Given that the Inquiry panel did not hear sworn evidence
on these cases and the investigations could not be completed, the
cases were given significantly less weight than the Junger and
Whitehead matters. However, the panel considered whether the
management of these tour cases ret1ected some similar problems to
those revealed in the Junger and Whitehead cases.
During the course of the Inquiry, a new Police Services Act was
proclaimed Dec. 31, 1990. Both the Junger and Whitehead
occurrences took place under the previous legislation. Any changes
in the law which would have affected what happened or will affect
how future investigations are conducted are noted, where relevant, in
this report.
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lungerlWhitehead Inquiry: Brian Whitehead
375
Appendix C lists the written submissions which were received and
reviewed by the Tnquiry panel. These submissions are on tile at the
Commission offices in Toronto.
For comparative purposes, the Inquiry conducted a survey of police
forces in Canada, the United States and the United Kingdom to
ascertain how they dealt with internal investigations. The survey
sought information on the existence and structure of internal affairs
units and public complaints units, and the policies and practices
followed by different police forces in dealing with alleged
wrongdoing by members of the force. Appendix D is a compilation
of the replies of 18 police forces which responded to the survey.
In addition, the Inquiry heard evidence from witnesses representing
six police forces: Hamilton-Wentworth Regional Police Force,
Ontario Provincial Police, Edmonton Police Service, Royal Canadian
Mounted Police, Detroit Police Department and New York City
Police Department.
The information provided by these witnesses, in addition to that
supplied in the responses to the survey, provided the Inquiry panel
with a valuable perspective on the administration in intemal
investigations in other police services and jUJisdictions.
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- mgerlWhitehead Inquiry: Introduction
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THE ONTARIO CIVILIAN COMMISSION ON POLICE
SERVICES
Report on an inquiry into administration of internal
investigations by the Metropolitan Toronto Police
Force
~
tL.~
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2.
Introduction
In the Public Interest
The people of Ontario must have confidence in the integrity of their
police. Police officers occupy a position of trust. They have authority
and responsibilities beyond those of the private citizen. When an
ot1icer is suspected of serious misconduct, patiicularly if it
potentially involves criminal activity, the allegation reflects on the
entire force.
Police oftlcers are engaged in a stressful and sometimes dangerous
job. They need the cooperation and support of the public to do that
job. To maintain public confidence and support, every police force
must be vigilant in maintaining the highest standards of
professionalism and honour among its oftlcers.
Police officers are only human. As in every other line of work, some
of them on occasion will get into trouble. The test of integrity of a
police force is not that all its oftlcers are perfect, but that when there
are allegations of misconduct, they are dealt with quickly, fairly and
openly.
The public must be assured that when wrongdoing by an officer is
suspected, the case will be investigated swiftly, and, iftbere is
evidence to lay a charge, prosecuted vigorously. There must be no
special treatment because the person under investigation wears a
badge. Officers must be assured that they will be dealt with fairly and
impartially; the rights of the accused must be protected.
Secrecy is inimical to our justice system. Law enforcement is an
important part of that system. It is a matter of public concern how
police forces handle criminal and serious disciplinary matters that
involve their own members, who are sworn to serve and protect the
public.
Those who are responsible for the quality of policing must be
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accountable to the public. Our whole system is predicated on
accountability. The Chief of Police is accountable to the Police
Services Board and through the Board to the community.
377
The Police Services Board is responsible for providing civilian
monitoring of the force and setting policies for its operation. Because
of this obligation to monitor and because police investigate
allegations against their own members, expectations for scrutiny by
the Police Services Board, as representatives of the community, are
high. It is imperative that Police Services Boards understand their
role and are hcld accountable to the public. Their function is a crucial
one; Boards exist to ensure that the policing services provided meet
community standards.
In cases where allegations against an ot1icer originate with a member
of the public, there is provision in law for civilian scrutiny of
investigation of complaints through monitoring by the Police
Complaints Commissioner.
The Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Scrvices which
designated this Inquiry panel under Scction 58 of the Police Act is
also part of the system of accountability and civilian review. The
Inquiry panel was given the mandate to examine the administration
of the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force as it relates to internal
investigations into allegations of wrongdoing by members of the
force. We heard extensive evidence and argument ovcr thc course of
18 months, primarily pertaining to two cases -- that of fonner
Constable Gordon Junger and that of Constable (formerly Sergeant)
Brian Whitehead.
The InquilY panel considered whether the management, supervision
and cnforcement of policies and procedures for handling alleged
wrongdoing by officers of the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force
werc adequate in light of the need for:
• accountability to the community;
• vigilance in the maintenance of high standards of
professionalism and integrity of policing;
• tairness in the exercise of authority; and
• openness to public scrutiny.
Our conclusion is that they clearly were not.
The Inquiry has revealed serious mismanagement on the part of the
Metropolitan Toronto Police Force in the handling of alleged
misconduct by members of the force.
The Inquiry panel is not in a position to assert that the two cases
which were the subject of detailed inquiry are necessarily
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representative of all internal investigations. But we doubt that the
problems associated with those cases are unique.
378
As noted in the Preface of this report, four other cases which were
raised in a submission to the Inquiry were reviewed, but without the
benefit of sworn testimony. We considered only infonnation that
could be verified by our own investigator and solicitor in connection
with these additional cases. These cases could not be thoroughly and
authoritatively investigated. However, the information that we
received tends to indicate that the treatment of the Junger and
Whitehead cases may not be isolated or anomalous.
The evidence put before this Inquiry has revealed that:
• There has been a tendency by the torce to treat cases involving
errant officers as an in-house problem, rather than a matter of
public concern.
• In an eftoli to rid the force of an officer who was considered
unsuitable, expediency has taken precedence over principle.
• Accountability for police discipline and civilian review has
been compromised.
• Inadequate consideration has been given to victims of police
wrongdoing.
The Metropolitan Toronto Police Force has maintained throughout
this Inquiry that nothing seriously went wrong -- nothing that a few
procedural changes could not fix. The Chief of Police William
McConnack told the Inquiry that the force has not heen
"procedurally perfect," hut his officers have acted in good faith. It is
significant that, as far as this Inquiry has been infolTIled, not a single
member of the f()[ce has been reprimanded in connection with these
matters.
Internal Atfairs, which conducted the investigations into Junger and
Whitehead, has gone on record in its tinal submission (p. 2) as
assessing its perfornlance as flawless -- "totally proper, totally
correct and totally legal" and in the best interests of the force and the
community.
The evidence presented at this lnquiry showed that Internal Affairs
investigators were skillful and thorough in gatheling evidence in the
Junger and Whitehead matters. But the Inquiry panel is in
fundamental disagreement with the self-assessment provided by
Internal Affairs as to the propriety and COITectness of all its actions
and its contribution for the t()rce and the public interest.
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The role ofIntemal Affairs is crucial in maintaining public trust in
the police. An excerpt from the American Law Enforcement
Accreditation Manual states:
The internal affairs function is important for the
maintenance of professional conduct in a law
enforcement agency. The integrity of the agency
depends on the personal integrity and discipline of each
employee. To a large degree, the public image of the
agency is detennined by the quality of the internal
affairs function in responding to allegations of
misconduct against the agency or its employees.
As civilian representatives of the public interest, our primary aim in
presenting this report is to prevent a recurrence of the
mismanagement revealed by the evidence given to this Inquiry. In
order to do so, it is clearly necessary to identify the enors and
omissions which occurred so that recommendations may be made tor
corrective action to guard against similar failures in the future.
The Inquiry panel realizes that there is likely some expectation that
this report will single out individuals for censure or approval. During
the course of this Inquiry, a good deal of evidence was led by parties
to justify and explain their actions. However, the mandate given to
this Inquiry was to inquire into the policies, procedures and practices
of the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force. This Inquiry is not
concerned with the good character, propriety of conduct or
competence of any party with a view to assessing blame or applying
sanctions.
If there is to be a calling to account for what OCCUlTed, it should be
done by those who are directly responsible for policing services in
Metropolitan Toronto.
If the Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board had reacted
differently in April, 1990 when circumstances of the resignation of
Gordon Junger first came to light in the media, this Inquiry need
never have taken place. If the Board had used its own authority to
uncover the facts of the Junger case and respond appropliately, the
Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services would not have felt
obliged to intervene.
If the Chief of Police t()r Metropolitan Toronto had responded
vigorously and openly when he discovered the full details of the
J unger resignation agreement, instead of keeping them confidential,
the reaction to this whole matter would have been different.
Had the force been less defensive and the Board less complacent at
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the outset, the public would have been assured that the issues were
being addressed. This repOli would not have been necessary.
380
It is our hope that the conclusions and recommendations in this
report will encourage police force management and Police Services
Boards -- not only in Metropolitan Toronto, but across Ontario -- to
take a hard look at how they are fulfilling their respective roles and
meeting their obligations to the public. For that reason, the Inquily
panel is pleased to have had the opportunity to conduct this Inquiry
and to present this report to the Solicitor General of Ontario.
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JungerfWhitehead Inquiry: Background
http://www.walneLorg/csis/reports/junger_inquirylbackground.html
THE ONTARIO CIVILIAN COMMISSION ON POLICE
SERVICES
Report on an inquiry into administration of internal
investigations by the Metropolitan Toronto Police
Force
Nj
~
Omarlo
3.
Background
This section provides background on how the system works or is
supposed to work -- who investigates what and who reports to
whom. It also looks at how new legislation has defined
responsibilities. This discussion is intended to provide a context for
discussion in the rest of the report.
Allegations of Misconduct
The Chief of Police has overall responsibility for the conduct and
discipline of the force, and unit commanders under the Chief are
likewises responsible for the conduct and discipline of the officers
under their command. Alleged misconduct may range from failing
inspection of the police uniform to criminal activity. A complaint
may be filed by a citizen or another ofticer.
there are three routes within the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force
for handling complaints or allegations of misconduct against ofticers.
An investigation may be pursued by:
• the Internal Aftairs unit;
• the Public Complaints Bureau; or
• any other division of the force under the supervision of a unit
commander.
If the complaint is made by a member of the "public" (a term not
defined in legislation), there is monitoring of the investigation
through the Office of the Police Complaints Commissioner. Where
the matter is an intemal one, that is, not involving an allegation by a
member of the public, there is still an expectation of civilian
oversight through reports to the Police Services Board.
Internal: Affairs
During the InquilY, it was noted that every officer of the
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Metropolitan Toronto Police Force is responsible for reporting
misconduct by any other officer. In that sense, it was said, the whole
force works for Internal Atlairs. The Internal Affairs unit was created
in 1976 by the then Chief of Police to guard against the potential for
COlTUpt practices and to deal with issues affecting morale. Thc unit
reported directly to the Chief: catried out its own investigations and
reviewed intemal investigations conducted by other units of the
force.
The functions ofIntemal Affairs remain basically the same today. It
conducts investigations -- it handled both the cases examined in
detail by this Inquiry. It maintains files for review of other intemal
investigations, with the exception of those conducted by the Public
Complaints Bureau.
Until only recently, Internal Affairs reported directly to the Chief; its
commander met with the Chiefregularly, sometimes daily, to keep
him informed of investigations. Since the Inquiry began, the unit
began reporting to an executive officer instcad of the Chief. Undcr a
recent reorganization, Internal Affairs reports to the Deputy Chief
who oversees the Public Complaints Bureau.
At the time of the Inquiry, the Internal AtTairs unit had seven
investigators and a commander. Officers assigned to the unit are
senior, experienced investigators. The average tour of duty in thc unit
is two to three years. The turnover in commanders of the unit has
been more frequent. In 1989, the unit repOlied 126 investigations, of
which 43 were actually conducted by the unit. The rest were mainly
reviews of other investigations.
There are no clear criteria for refen'al of a case to Intemal Affairs,
rather than to the Public Complaints Bureau of the force. The Chief
assigns responsibility for investigations to Intemal Affairs. Intemal
Affairs investigations are not monitored by other branches of the
force. Its files are kept separately from other branches of the force.
Public Complaints Bureau
The Public Complaints Bureau, formerly the Citizen Complaint
Bureau, is a division oftlle Metropolitan Toronto Police Force
mandated under Part VI of the Police Services Act, 1990. The
bureau's function is to investigate complaints by the public against
members of the force. Members of the bureau may conduct
investigations into alleged criminal activity. At the time of the
Inquiry, there were 24 investigators, commanded by a Staff
Inspector.
The bureau is supervised by a Deputy Chief, who acts as complaint
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review officer on behalf of the Chief, making a determination
whether to proceed beyond the investigation stage.
The bureau receives about 800 complaints a year. About 25 per cent
are detelmined at an early stage to be fi'ivolous or vexatious or they
are withdrawn. Very few of those which are investigated result in
disciplinary action. No action is taken in approximately 95 per cent
of complaints received.
Trials Preparation Unit: Laying Disciplinary Charges
The Supreme COUli of Canada has distinguished between matters of
a public nature, intended to promote public order and welfare within
a public sphere of activity, and disciplinary matters which are
regulatory, protective or conective and which are primarily intended
to mmntain discipline, professional integrity and professional
standards or to regulate conduct within a limited private sphere of
activity. (Wigglesworth v. Her Majesty the Queen; Burnham v.
Ackroyd et al; Re Imrie and Institute of Chartered Accountants
of Ontario)
Although a disciplinary hearing under the Police Services Act has all
the trappings of a criminal proceeding, such hearings are
administrative, rather than criminal or penal in nature.
If an investigation into alleged misconduct by a member of the force
uncovers evidence by the laying of a charge under the Police .
Services Act (foll11erly the Police Act), investigators prepare a brief
which includes statements of witnesses and all the details of thc
investigation. The brief is given to the Trials Preparation Unit of the
force which decides on the charges to be laid and prepares a charge
sheet.
Officers· in the Trials Preparation Unit act as prosecutors. they deal
with lawyers for the accused and representatives of the police
association. If there is any plea bargaining, it is done by the Trials
Preparation Unit. Contact with victims or complainants is left to the
investigators.
The hearing is held before a senior officer of the force, acting on
behalf ofthe Chief of Police . the maximum penalty for a disciplinary
offence under the Act is dismissal.
According to evidence given to the Inquiry, most disciplinary
charges against officers of the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force
originate from field divisional units, rather than Internal Affairs or
the Public Complaints Bureau. The Metropolitan Toronto force lays
in the range of 160 to 180 disciplinalY charges per year under the
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Police Services Act (formerly the Police Act), resulting in 50 to 60
hearings. In about half the disciplinary cases, the accused offIcers
plead guilty. An officer may appeal to the Police Services Board.
There are usually about four to six appeals to the Metropolitan
Toronto Police Services Board a year.
Police Complaints Commissioner
Metropolitan Toronto pioneered civilian monitOling of police in this
province. The 1981 Metropolitan Toronto Police Force
Complaints Project Act created a pilot project for handling
complaints. In 1984, the project bccame permanent with the
enactment of the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force Complaints
Act.
The n~w Police Services Act expanded the Metro Toronto model
across the province effective in 1991, and broadened the types of
complaints to come under the system.
If a complaint is made by a member of the public, legislation
requires that the Office of the Police Complaints Commissioner
(PCC) be infonned. The investigation is conducted by police, except
in exceptional circumstances, but the PCC monitors the police
investigation and the outcome, and follows established procedures to
infOlm both the complainant and the officer.
Tn the view of the Police Complaints Commissioner, only complaints
by a fellow officer in the same force may be treated as internal
matters. All the rest are considered public complaints. Anonymous
complaints are not considered by the PCC to be "public" compaints.
Police Services Boards
The new Police Services Act is more explicit about the powers and
duties of civilian boards goveming police forces than the former
Police Act. The old Act in Section 17 (1) made boards responsible
"for the policing and maintenance oflaw and order in the
municipality" and stated that "the members of the police force are
subject to the government of the board and shall obey its lawful
directions. "
Section 31 of the new Act elaborates on the responsibilities of boards
for "the provision of police services and for law enforcment and
crime prevention." Listed among the responsibilities of boards are:
. generally determine, after consultation with the Chief of Police,
objectives and priorities with respect to police services; establish
policies for effective management of the force; appoint and direct the
Chief and monitor his or her pert()rmance; establish guidelines for
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lunger/Whitehead Inquiry: Background
the administration by the Chief of the public complaints system,
review its administration by the Chief, and receive re!:,rular reports on
that subject.
385
The members of the police force are under board jUlisdiction. A
board may give orders and directions to the Chiet~ but not to other
members of the force, and no individual member of a board may give
'
orders or directions to any member of the force.
The Act states in Section 31 (4) that a board shall not direct the Chief
with respect to "specific operational decisions or with respect to the
day-to-day operation of the police torce.!I According to Section 31
(6), a board may make bylaws tor the effective management of the
force. Section 41 makes the Chief responsible for administering
discipline under the Act and administering the public complaints
systems. Section 41 also says that the Chief reports to the Board and
"shall obey its lawful orders and directions."
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THE ONTARIO CIVILIAN COMMISSION ON POLICE
SERVICES
Report on an inquiry into administration of internal
investigations by the Metropolitan Toronto Police
Force
4.
Case Chronology: Gordon Junger
This section presents the facts of the case of Gordon Junger, as it was
revealed through extensive examination and cross-examination of
witnesses. Sometimes the motivation of a witness, as it was
expressed to the Inquiry, is also included. The chronology of this
matter is provided without comment. Discussion of the issues and
conclusions and recommendations follow in subsequent sections of
this report.
Gordon Junger
In 1989, Constable Gordon Junger, a member of the force since
1980, and at the time attached to No. 52 Division, formed an
association with Franklina (Roma) Langford, then a prostitute. In the
spring, the two began living together at Langford's residence. In late
July 1989, a report was received by the force's Internal Affairs unit
that Junger and Langford were cohabitating.
In the fall of 1989, Langford and Junger engaged in the operation of
an escort agency called "Pleasure Can Be Yours Escort Service" and
advertised for clients and employees in a Toronto publication.
In early December, some four months after the tlrst report was
received by Internal Affairs, Langford contacted the unit about
Junger's involvement in the escort service, as well as several other
incidents of alleged discreditable conduct and dereliction of duty as
those terms are defined in the Code of Offences in regulations of the
Police Act.
She also advised that he was in possession of narcotics, and had
checked out prospective employees of the escort service by means of
the national police computer system (ePIC). She said she contacted
police because she was concerned about Junger's behaviour and they
were having arguments. She asked that her reporting of Junger to the
force be kept confidential.
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After some preliminary questions to a member of the morality squad,
the two Internal Affairs investigators determined that it would be
difficult to obtain criminal conviction against Junger on a
prostitution-related charge.
With Langford's cooperation, the investigators set up a videotaped
"sting" operation in an east-end Toronto hotel on December 5, 1989.
Junger was aJTested at the hotel immediately atter receiving money
from a policewoman posing as a civilian wishing to purchase sex
with him. Junger was anested for the criminal otfence ofliving otf
the avails ofprostitution.
The investigator who anested Junger said he did not believe that he
could get a conviction on the prostitution charge. He said he wanted
to ensure that Junger was appropriately cautioned so that anything
Junger said would be admissible. However, the investigator did not
interrogate Junger about the alleged prostitution or about any other
matter.
Officers searched Junger's vehicle, with his consent. Junger was then
released unconditionally, according to the investigator. The
investigator told the Inquiry that he believed he had reasonable and
probable grounds to aiTest, but not to swear an intonnation. No
report of this arrest was ever made, although an aJTest report is
required under rules of the force.
Junger accompanied the investigators to the residence he occupied
with Langford. The officers had a search wanant, and a search
revealed a relatively small quantity of hashish. Junger was arrested,
this time tor possession of a narcotic. He was told that Internal
Affairs had become involved because of int()[Ination supplied by
Roma Langford.
Junger was takcn to a police station and released on an undeltaking
to a Justice of the Peace. The undertaking included the condition that
he not communicate with Langford. Junger was suspended from duty
that night.
No criminal or disciplinmy charge for unauthOIized use of CPIC was
laid, although such use had been confirmed. After Junger's release,
the investigators were infonned that he was violating the conditions
of his undertaking to stay away from Langford, but no criminal
charge was laid. Junger was warned.
No written brief on the investigation was sent to the Trials
Preparation Unit for the purpose oflaying Police Act charges.
On Dec. 19, 1989, Langford met with Junger's lawyer and gave him a
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statement regarding the narcotic charge which conflicted with the
infOlmation she had originally provided to police. She testified at the
Inquiry that she was told what to say by Junger.
On Jan. 19, 1990, the Intemal Affairs investigators met with Junger's
lawyer at his office and they discussed the tenns of an agreement
prepared by the lawyer. The agreement, in summary, provided that:
• Junger would resign from the force effective Feb. 1.
• The outstanding charges of possession of a narcotic would be
withdrawn and no Police Act or Criminal Code charges would
be laid against him "arising from or with respect to his
relationship both personal and business with Franklina
Langtord."
• All physical evidence relating to the investigation was to be
destroyed on or before May 1, 1990 with the exception of the
officers' notes (although the physical evidence was not
specified in the agreement, the police had in their possession a
videotape of the "sting," the narcotic and some audio tapes
provided by Langford). Internal Atfairs was to infonn Junger's
lawyer in writing of compliance with this condition.
• If a reference was requested by a third party, JWlger was not to
receive a derogatory letter of reference. The official position of
the force was to be restricted to a fonn letter setting forth when
he commenced employment and his position at that time.
• The agreement was conditional upon all the above being
completed.
• All aspects of the agreement were to be kept confidential.
Before signing the agreement, the investigators sought the
pennission of their unit commander by telephone from the office of
Junger's lawyer. In the unit commander's absence, a summary of their
request and a partial description of the agreement was conveyed
orally, through two other Intemal Affairs members, to the Chief of
Police. The Chief gave his pennission.
Members of the Intemal Affairs unit who wre aware of the contents
of the agreement told the Inquiry that they had no intention of
destroying evidence, despite the commitment in the agreement. They
were intent on securing resignation of an office they did not believe
should be a member of the force.
On Jan. ] 9, 1990, Junger signed a tODn application for resignation,
to be effective Feb.I. The same day, one of the investigators
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completed a "request to withdraw charge" fonn for the narcotics
charge. The reason given for the request to withdraw was that
Langford would not be a credible witness.
389
The Department of Justice prosecutor who received the request to
withdraw considered it appropriate, but sent the request to his
supervisor because it involved a police officer. The supervisor of the
prosecu,tions section for the Department of Justice decided to
proceed with the charge.
On Feb. 21, the commander of the Internal Affairs unit, then Staff
Inspector, now Superintendent Aiden Mahar, telephoned the
supervisor of prosecutions. Mahar said that the force had an
agreement that if Junger resigned, the charge would be dropped. He
asked that the charge be withdrawn "in the interest of the force."
After futiher consultation with the Justice Department, it was agreed
that the charge would be dropped. A letter confirming the decision
emphasized that the decision was based on evidence, and was
unrelated to the agreement with Junger.
On Feb. 8, the Chief of Police had made a brief verbal repOli on
Junger to the Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board in closed
session. The Chief had previously told the Board that there were
allegations of prostitution, possession of marijuana and cohabitation
with a prostitute. He advised the Board at this time that Junger had
resigned.
On Feb. 22, the Board received a personnel report whieh contained
Junger's resignation for "personal reasons." On Feb. 28, the narcotics
charge was tonnally withdrawn.
In March 1990, the Chief became aware of the specific tern1S of the
agreement. He did not advise the Board of its existence. The Chief
and the force's legal advisor testitied they recognized the potential
for public criticism of the force. The Chief decided to keep the
agreement secret. I-Ie asked the legal advisor to develop guidelines
for vetting any future agreements.
In Apri11990, after a story about the circumstances of the Junger
resignation appeared in the Toronto Star, the then Chair of the
Police Serviccs Board, June Rowlands, met with Chief McCormack
to discuss the matter. Ms. Rowlands said she did not ask tor a copy
of the agreement and was not given a copy. She said she did not
believe that the Chief would have given her a copy. Ms. Rowlands
testified that she did not have an opportunity to read the agreement
until almost a year later, in February 1991, in her counsel's oftlce.
In May 1990, the Police Services Board appointed a task force to
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examine reporting relationships between the Board and the Chief in
cases of internal investigations of alleged wrongdoing by an officer,
and the issue of agreements between the force and officers possibly
facing disciplinmy charges. No other action was taken by the Board
at that time.
To date, according to testimony at the Inquiry, no member of the
Metropolitan Toronto Police Force has been called to account or
reprimanded in connection with the agreement or the investigation
generally.
In July 1990, the Ontario Provincial Police conducted an
investigation into the force's handling of the Junger case, including
the resignation agreement. It concluded there was no criminality
involved.
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~
Ontario
5.
Case Chronology: Brian Whitehead
This section presents the facts of the case of Constable, formerly
Sergeant, Blian Whitehead, as it was revealed through extensive
examination and cross-examination of witnesses. Sometimes the
motivation of a witness, as it was expressed to the Inquiry, is also
included. The chronology of the case is provided without comment.
Discussion of the issues and conclusions and recommendations
follow in subsequent sections of this repoti.
Brian Whitehead
On the night of November 7, 1989, Sergeant Brian Whitehead, a
member of the force since 1967 and attached at the time to No. 21
Division, picked up a woman who was then working as a prostitute.
This woman'will be refelTed to as Jane Doe.
Shortly afterward, Jane Doe consulted a lawyer who ananged a
meeting with the Internal Atlairs unit. Accompanied by her lawyer,
she alleged to Internal Affairs that a police officer, whose name she
did not know, had extorted sexual services from her by the threat of
atTest. During a second encounter 011 the same night, the officer had
given a false statement to another member of the force about the
nature of his contact with Jane Doe.
These activities involved possible criminal otTences of sexual assault
and extortion. They also involved comJpt practices and deceit,
according to the Code of OtTences in the Police Act.
At the meeting with Internal At1airs, there was a discussion between
Jane Doe and the investigators of possible criminal and Police Act
charges. She indicated that she wanted the officer to be prosecuted in
some fashion, and she did not want her identity revealed. The
investigators consulted a member of the force's Trials Preparation
Unit about her request for anonymity in the event of a disciplinary
hearing. Jane Doe was assured that steps could be taken to prevent
the disclosure of her name.
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392
At a subsequent meeting with investigators, Jane Doe provided a
complete statement of the events involving the alleged offences.
An intensive investigation was launched promptly to determine the
identity of the officer. Recording equipment was installed on Jane
Doe's telephone. With the cooperation of Jane Doe, Whitehead was
arrested at her residence in the early moming of November 23, on
charges of sexual assault and extortion.
The investigators told the inquiry that they did not intend to proceed
with criminal charges. They felt their case was weak and they
believed that Jane Doe would refuse to cooperate if they proceeded
with a criminal case. Whitehead was arrested so they could restrain
him because of a fear he would assault one of them. Whitehead, who
was carrying a bottle of liquor, was described as belligerent and
emotionaL Jane Doe was distraught.
Whitehead was transported to the Intemal Affairs unit. Investigators
said they did not notice an odour of alcohol on his breath until he
was taken to their offices. Intoxication was confirmed through an
ALERT test. No drinking and driving investigation was conducted.
Although he had been atTested, Whitehead was not fom1ally
intelTogated or fingerprinted in connection with the offences for
which he was arrested. No criminal infonnation was sworn and no
arrest report or Crown brief was prepared. Whitehead was told that a
Crown Attorney would be consulted in the morning; he was allowed
to go home atter three hours, without a fonnal release fi'om arrest.
A duty inspector decided not to suspend Whitehead because he was
already on "days off".
That morning the investigators discussed the case with a Crown
Attorney, but did not present a written brief. The Crown lawyer
recalled concluding that the case for a criminal conviction was weak
because the complainant had given coni1icting statements and there
was no cOIToboration. He said the infon11ation he was given by the
investigators led to concerns about Jane Doe's ciedibility as a
witness. One of the investigators recalled referring to some "bizan'e"
prior occurrences involving Jane Doe, but denied saying she had
given contradictory versions of the events of November 18.
Shortly after his arrest, Whitehead entered an institution for the
treatment of alcoholism.
Between November 1989 and February 1990, a brief in support of
Police Act charges was prepared by the investigators and forwarded
to the Trials Preparation Unit. No reference was made in the brief to
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Jane Doe's insistence on anonymity, but there were informal
conversations to that effect between Intemal Atfairs and the officer
prosecuting the case.
In December, both Jane Doe and her lawyer contacted Intemal
Affairs to request that the force go ahead with climinal charges
against Whitehead. Jane Doe asked for the name of the officer
involved, but Intemal Affairs refused to give it to her.
On February 19, Police Act charges of COlTIlpt practice (using his
position as a member of the force for private advantage) and deceit
(making a false, misleading or inaccurate statement to another
officer) were laid against Whitehead. The charge sheets revealed the
identity of Jane Doe. Whitehead's first appearance on the charges
was March 9.
Before Whitehead entered a plea, Jane Doe retained another lawyer,
who requested that criminal eharges be laid against Whitehead. Jane
Doe indicated she was ready and willing to testifY. No criminal
charges were laid.
On May 9; Whitehead pleaded guilty to the Police Act charges.
Although particulars of the offences contained in the charge sheets
were not amended, the fact summary read into the record by the
prosecuting officer contained significant variations fi'om the
statement given by Jane Doe. The changes were made at the
insistence of Whitehead's lawyer and without the knowledge or
concunence of Jane Doe or the Internal Affairs investigators.
Jane Doe was not notified of the proceedings or the date of the
appearances and was neither present nor represented. No application
was made to conduct the hearing in camera or to restrict publication
of her name. Her name was repeated in the transcri pt 0 f the hearing.
The prosecution and defence in the Whitehead disciplinary heaJing
agreed to propose a penalty of forfeiture of days off. The proposal
presented to the hearing officer was that Whitehead should lose 20
days on the corrupt practice charge and forfeit three weeks' annual
leave on the deceit charge, for a total of 35 days' off. The presiding
senior officer rejected the joint submission.
Whitehead was sentenced on May 11, 1990. The hearing officer
acknowledged Whitehead's exemplary service record of 23 years, his
early plea of guilty, his remorse and attendance for treatment for
alcohol dependency, and the many senior ranking officers who spoke
on his behalf But he described Whitehead's conduct as "a totally
despicable abuse of police power and authority."
He sentenced Whitehead to a reduction in rank from Sergeant to First
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Class Constable. On May 14, 1990, the Chief of Police reviewed and
confirmed the conviction and sentence.
394
Whitehead launched an appeal. Jane Doe requested that she be
allowed to appear before the Police Services Board on hearing of the
appeal.
Members of the Public Complaints Bureau of the Metro force met
with Jane Doe and offered her the opportunity to make a public
complaint or to consult with a Crown Attorney, but she declined.
Immediately before the appeal before the Police Services Board was
to be heard, it was withdrawn. On February 19,1991, the Board
proceeded to review and contirm the conviction and sentence.
At the end of February 1991, Jane Doe asked for a transcript of the
disciplinary hearing and leamed that her name had not been kept
confidential, despite the assurances she had been given of anonymity.
In March, she asked to appear before this Inquiry. That same month,
she provided the Globe and Mail with intonnation about the case
and a story ran March 20. In the newspaper story and in other media
reports, Jane Doc's anonymity was preserved.
Her lawyer requested a review of the case by the Attorney General.
In response to criticism about the case in the media, Chief
McCOlmack held a news conference to discuss the Whitehead
matter. When Jane Doe learned that a news con terence was plmmed,
she requested that steps be taken to protect her anonymity.
The force said it had legal advice to the effect that it could not legally
alter the transcript of the disciplinary hearing which included Jane
Doe's name. Jane Doe retained a lawyer to apply for a court
injunction to restrain disclosure of her name. The torce did not
oppose the action and the court granted the injunction.
At the news conference, Chief McConnack said he wanted to clarifY
some "ambiguities" about the case. He told reporters that it would be
"highly improper" and "most unethical" for him to become involved
in the matter of sentencing. He added later that he could not begin to
"second-guess" the sentence without reviewing the entire matter. He
also said the Board had not been in a position to review the sentence.
In fact, both the Board and the Chief had already reviewed and
continned the sentence imposed on Whitehead.
The Chief also said that the force had done its best for Jane Doe.
"Nothing went wrong. Nothing at all went wrong," he said. The
Chief said that Jane Doe and her lawyer had the opportunity to make
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application to the healing officer for a closed disciplinary hearing to
maintain her anonymity, but did not do so. When he was told that
Jane Doe and her lawyer had not been notitled of the hearing, the
Chief said that "if she had exhibited any kind of an interest in the
matter, she would have found out ... " But he conceded that the force
should have kept Jane Doe infonned.
395
In the summer of 1991, the Director of Criminal Prosecutions for the
Attorney General ofOntmio examined the evidence and decided
against laying criminal charges against Whitehead.
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396
THE ONTARIO CIVILIAN COMMISSION ON POLICE
SERVICES
Report on an inquiry into administration of internal
investigations by the Metropolitan Toronto Police
Force
6.
The Junger Agreement
The resignation agreement with (fonner) Constable Gordon Junger
was the issue which prompted the holding of this inquiry and is
central to the.recommendations and conclusions in this report. The
agreement is reproduced in full at the end of this section.
The Metropolitan Toronto Police Force should not have entered into
the agreement it did to obtain the resignation of Constable Junger.
The Inquiry heard a range of justifications from the f()[ce for the
agreement, such as: it was wOlih it to get rid of a bad oftlcer; there
was no intention of complying with the temlS anyway; the criminal
case against Junger had fallen apart because the witness had changed
her story; there was no hope of any other successful prosecutions;
once· he resigned, disciplinary charges were irrelevant; and it would
have taken a long time to go through the disciplinary hearing process
and would have cost the taxpayers a lot more to continue to pay
Junger's salary on suspension until the case was resolved.
All of these excuses amount to the end justifying the means. They
are totally unacceptable.
It is disturbing that the response of the Intemal Affairs unit, which
signed the agreement on behalf ofthe Chief, has been to continue to
deny any eITOr. The final written submission from Intemal Affairs
concluded that "the conduct offntemal Affairs was appropriate, just
and fair." (p.3) The motive expressed by Intemal Affairs witnesses-their desire to secure the resi!,'11ation of an officer they believed
should be ofTthe force -- may have been understandable, but their
actions were wrong.
The smugness of Internal Affairs in finding itself to be totally
without fault is likely in part the result of the fact that no one has
been censured for conduct in connection with any aspect of the
Junger matter. According to testimony, the closest the force came to
admitting a problem was to indicate that the agreement should have
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been shown to a lawyer before it was signed. This sounds like a
procedural enor only. It ought to have been recognized that in
substantive terms, there were serious problems with the agreement.
397
Terms of the Agreement
We cannot state too strongly our disapproval of the agreement in the
terms expressed. The inquiry panel considers the agreement to have
been highly improper in that it purported to provide, in exchange for
the resignation of an officer, an undertaking to withdraw a criminal
charge, a promise to lay no other charges, either criminal or
disciplinary, a promise to destroy evidence, and a promise to keep
the terms secret.
Withdrawal of the Narcotics Charge
The parties to the agreement gave evidence that they were aware that
the consent of the Crown was required tor the withdrawal of the
charge against Gordon Junger of possession of a narcotic pursuant to
the Narcotic Control Act. They also used as justification for this
clause in the agreement the tact that Roma Langtcml had retracted
her statement.
The submission of Commission counsel (p. 19) fairly states the
objection to this line of reasoning:
The objection is not that that condition [the requirement
for consent to withdraw by the Crown] was not
expressed, but that the force committed itself of
obtaining the consent of the Crown Attorney in order to
obtain Junger's resi b'11ation. As well, the effolts of the
force to withdraw the charge did not take place until
after the agreement was signed, even though the
investigators were aware of the collapse of the
credibility of their major witness a month before.
Further, the agreement for Junger's resignation was used
as a lever by Sllnsp. Mahar in an effOli to persuade the
Crown to withdraw ...
Promise Not to Lay Charges
The agreement promised that "no Police Act or Criminal Code
charges will be laid against Gordon Junger from or with respect to
his relationship both personal and business with Franklina
Langford." This undertaking was given in spite of the fact that
evidence had been gathered on alleged Police Act offences.
In the period between Dec. 5, 1989 (the date of the "sting" and
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Junger's arrest) and Jan. 19, 1990 the date of the drawing up of the
resignation agreement in the office of Junger's lawyer) no Police Act
brief on the Junger matter was prepared and submitted to the Trials
Preparation unit.
398
Since the criminal charge was a narcotics charge, the force was not
prevented by provisions of the Metropolitan Toronto police officers'
"Bill of Rights" tl·om proceeding expeditiously with disciplinary
charges related to a number of alleged offences -- accepting money
tor sex, the operation of the escort service, unauthOlized use of the
police computer (ePIC), and other offences alleged by Langford in
her first meeting with Internal Affairs.
The "Bill of Rights for Police Officers", which is examined later in
Section 8 of this report, required the force to postpone the hearing of .
disciplinary charges until after criminal proceedings were completed
only in cases where the charges related to the same offence. In
Junger's case, the alleged disciplinary otfences were unrelated to the
narcotics charge.
One of the justifications for signing the agreement was that it is
expensive to keep paying a suspended officer pending resolution of
the disciplinaty process. This reasoning is hardly credible when the
force made no discernible effort to proceed quickly with charges
against Junger in the interval of more than a month between Junger's
arrest and suspension, and the signing of the agreement.
In addition, Internal Affairs received information that Junger had
breached his recognizance by associating with Langford. No action
was taken to investigate or lay a charge. A breach of recognizance is
an offence under the Criminal Code. Ignoring a breach of
recognizance because it is a "domestic" can have serious
consequences; it can put the other at risk and jeopardize a
prosecution if the partner is a potential witness against the accused.
The police computer system, CPIC, is a Canada-wide network
operated by the federal RCMP, containing highly confidential
intonnation; it is to be used only in the perfOlTI1anCe of an officer's
duties. Although investigators had confinned Junger's use of CPIC to
check out names given to him by Roma Langford, no climinal or
disciplinary charges were laid.
The principle with regard to this condition of the agreement is a
crucial one. The torce should not be substituting resi1:,1I1ation
agreements or other special arrangements for charges under the
Police Services Act or the Climinal Code of Canada where there is
evidence to prosecute.
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399
Destruction of "Evidence"
There is some debate about what was meant to be included in the
destruction of evidence -- the videotape, the audio tapes, the narcotic
or all three -- and whether these items should be considered
"evidence" or "property". There is little to be gained from a
discussion of what various people assumed was intended. The fact
that the investigation except the officers' notes should have set off
alarm bells for anyone who saw it.
Employment References
We also object to the provision of the agreement that undertook to
provide a neutral, non-derogatory employment reference for Junger.
In Junger's case, his personnel record listed resignation tor "personal
reasons". There was no reference to the resignation agreement in his
personnel file.
Nothing in the Police Services Act prevents a police force from
giving accurate information about an ot1icer who reSif,'11s. Section 61
(7) permits taking allegations of misconduct or disciplinary hearings
into account for employment-related purposes if misconduct is
proved on clear and convincing evidence or if the police officer
resigns before the matter is finally disposed of.
The Municipal Freedom oflnfonnation and Protection of Privacy
Act protects the privacy of personal files of officers employed by a
municipal police force. However, a waiver may be obtained from the
offIcer so that a police force considering hiring someone from
another may have access to the applicant's previous employment
record.
Police forces should not create false impressions by giving
misleading personnel references to other police services when the
force considers the individual to have proven him or herself to be
unsuitable for the role of police offIcer.
Secrecy
It is unacceptable, though not surplising, that one of the telms of the
agreement was that it be kept confidentiaL By doing a secret deal, the
force sacrificed being able to point to this case as a warning and
deterrent to other officers of the consequences of discreditable
conduct. It also lost an 0PPOJiunity to reassure the public that the
force is detennined to uncover wrongdoing by officers and prosecute
to the full extent of the law.
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Failure to Inform and to Act
Chief William McCormack testified that he was not fully aware of
the details of the resignation agreement when he gave consent to it.
The inforn1ation he received about the agreement appears to have
been second or third-hand. When he did see it, he was still not overly
concerned because he believed that prosecution of the officer either
in criminal court or a disciplinary hearing was not a viable option.
He insisted that the agreement was not a "deal" because neither party
got anything out of it.
But he was suffIciently worried about public criticism when he saw
the agreement that he thought it best to keep the agreement
confidential.
The Chief of Police should have been fully infol1ued -- and should
have ensured that he was fully informed -- of the details of the
agreement before his signature was attached to it. Onee the Chief
became aware of the agreement, he should have repudiated it and
taken it to the Police Services Board. Keeping the agreement
confidential, especially fi·om his own Board, was an inappropriate
reaction.
The "Con"
One aspect of the response of the Internal Affairs unit is particularly
troubling. The Internal Atrairs unit commander at the time, formerly
Stafflnspector now Superintendent Aiden Mahar, told the inquiry
that the agreement was a "con" because the force had no intention of
complying with its tenus.
We are not sure whether to believe the written terms of the
agreement, which were negotiated with an officer of the court
(counsel for Constable Junger), or to believe those who say now that
the agreement was a sham.
}" •• ,c";
Internal Affairs went to some effort to negotiate with Junger's lawyer
for a May 1, 1990 date for the destmction of physical evidence. The
explanation given at the time was that the unit wanted 90 days before
destroying anything in case Junger changed his mind after resigning.
Why would they have bothered if they did not mean to comply?
One can only speculate what might have happened if the agreement
had not become public. Neither choice is palatable. We are unsure
which is more reprehensible -- to enter into a secret contractual
agreement which purports to destroy evidence and abandon charges
in exchange for the resignation of an officer or to enterinto a secret
.... "."
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.Ii· .~ ~
401'
. ,.
contractual agreement \vltll no intention of complying:with it.
_
We do not have to choose one opti~n or the other. Either ~3rY, the
actions of the force delhonstr'ate lack of integ~ty. Those in ,charge of :
the Metropolitan TOrbnt"o force do not seem to realize the seriousness:
of this matter.
If a police force would act dishonor'~bly to get rid o,fo'ne of its own
officers,.
can the
public count on it to act honorabl)Jiil
cases';.
"!
involving civil ians'?
.
THIS IS AN AGREEMENT MADE THIS day of January, 1990.
BETWEEN:
THE METROPOLITAN TORONTO POLICE FORCE
Party of the First Part - andGORDON JUNGER
Party of the Second Part
WHEREAS:
A. There exists an ongoing investigation into the conduct of
Gordon Junger in his capacity as a Police Officer with the
Metropolitan Toronto Police and his dealings both personal
and business with Franklina Langford;
B. There exists an outstanding charge pursuant to the Narcotic
Control Act as against Gordon Junger;
C. Charges pursuant to the Police Act are contemplated;
NOW THEREFORE THIS AGREEMENT WITNESSES that the
parties hereto agree as follows:
1. Gordon hll1ger will resign his position as 1st class Police
Constable with the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force
effective February 1, 1990;
2. Gordon .Tl,lnger agrees not to file a grievance with respect to his
resignation;
3. That the outstanding charges of possession of a narcotic
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pursuant to the Narcotic Control Act be withdrawn;
4. That the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force will not provide to
any person a derogatory letter of reference, if requested by a
third party, and further, that the official position of the Force
will be restricted to a fonn letter setting forth the date Gordon
Junger commenced employment and in what capacity and the
date he ceased employment and his position at that time. A
copy of the proposed fomlletter is annexed hereto as Exhibit
"A";
5. No Police Act or Criminal Code charges will be laid against
Gordon Junger arising fi'om or with respect to his relationship
both, personal and business with Franklina Langford;
6. All physical evidence relating to this subject investigation (ie.
Gordon Junger's personal and business dealings with Franklina
Langford) shall be destroyed on or before May 1, 1990, save
and except for the investigating officers' notes. Detective
Sergeant N. Shannon will advise Kenneth Byers, counsel tor
Gordon .lunger, in writing of compliance with this paragraph
when same has been effected;
7. This Agreement is conditional upon all of the foregoing being
completed;
8. This parties hereto agree that the content of this Agreement are
confidential and shall not be divulged to any person
whatsoever.
TO EVIDENCE THEIR AGREEMENT each of the parties has
signed this contract under seal before a witness.
SIGNED, SEALED AND DELIVERED
Morc about Jane Doc...
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403
THE ONTARIO CIVILIAN COMMISSION ON POLlCE
SERVICES
Report on an inquiry into administration of internal
investigations by the Metropolitan Toronto Police
Force
7.
Role Of The Police Services Board
The handling of the Junger matter has raised a number of important
issues related to the responsibilities of the Police Services Board,
which acts as the civilian overseer of the police force on behalf of the
community, and to the relationship between the Board and the Chief
of Police.
A Matter of Responsibility
The inquiry panel has heard a great deal oflegal argument
conceming the responsibilities of the Chief ofPolice to handle
day-to-day, individual disciplinary matters, and the responsibility of
the Police Services Board to establish policies for etrective
management of the force and to direct the Chief arid monitor his
perfonnance.
The law gives Boards overall responsibility for policing services in
their communities. That is true of the old Police Act which was in
eirect in J 990, as well as the new Police Services Act. The new Act
is more specific about what Boards are supposed to do:
• generally detennine objectives and priorities after consultation
with the Chief;
• establish policies for effective management of the force;
• appoint and direct the Chief and monitor his or her
perfonnance; and
• establish guidelines for administration of the public complaints
system by the Chief, review its administration and receive
regular reports.
The law says that Police Services Boards must not become involved
in day-to-day management of police forces. Their role is not that of
police commissioners in some foreign jurisdictions who get involved
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404
in investigations. It is an important plinciple of our system that
operational matters of a police force be kept clear of political
decision- making. Symbolically and appropriately, the name of the
local "board of commissioners of police" in the old Act was changed
to the "police services board" in the new Act.
The law: is clear that the Board cannot usurp or replace the
management role of the Chief of Police. However, the Board clearly
has overall responsibilities for the operation of the force. The Chief
reports to the Board and must obey its lawful orders and directions.
It is the view of this Inquiry panel that a Police Serviccs Board
cannot fulfill its responsibilities for monitoring the policies it sets
and the perfonnance of the Chief unless it insists on having the
necessary infonnation. And there must be an obligation on the Chief
to report fully.
The hands-off stance taken by the Metropolitan Toronto Police
Services Board in the matter of the resignation of Constable Gordon
Junger represents a misunderstanding of its role and a failure to
assume its rightful responsibilities.
Failure To Exercise Board Authority
The Chief of Police provides reports to the Police Services Board on
matters of internal discipline. Chief McCormack reported Junger's·
resignation to the Board, but did not infonn the Board of the
resignation at,'feement when he became aware of its tenus. The
submission on behalf of Chief McCormack stated that the Chief only
took office in October of 1989, and at the time of the Junger matter,
his reporting relationship with the Board was in the formative stages.
However, the submission concluded (p. 7) that:
... the evidence before this inquiry is uncontroverted of
an' ... open, co-operative relationship with the Chief ...
FUlihermore, the evidence established that since Chief
McCormack became Chief, the level of verbal repoliing
had' ... very much increased'.
The·submission seems to be saying that the repOlting by the Chief to
the Police Services Board was sufficient. We strongly disagree.
The 'Police Services Board was limited -- by lack of infonuation
from the Chief -- in what it could do prior to the publicity about the
Junger matter. However, once it learned of the matter, the Board
should have demanded to see the agreement. It should have asked for
legal advice on the implications. It should have contacted counsel for
Junger and advised him that the tenus were unacceptable to the
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405
Board.
The Board did none of the above. It did not ask to see the agreement
nor to ask for legal advice. It did not demand a tull accounting of the
circumstances that led to the agreement. When the Ontario Civilian
Commission on Police Services expressed concern about the matter
early of 1990. the reaction of the Board was to appoint a task force.
The task force did not come to grips with the fundamental problems.
The view of the Inquiry panel is that the response by the Board was
woefully inadequate.
The then Chair ofthc Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board,
June Rowlands, defended the Board's actions before the Inquiry. She
said the Board was not aware of the agreement when it was signed;
the Board was not party to the agreement, could not change it, and
considered that it was within the day-to-day management
responsibilities of the Chief.
When reports of the Junger resignation appeared in the press and the
matter becamc a public issuc, Ms Rowlands discussed it with the
Chief. She learned of the agreement, but she did not ask to see it and
testified that she felt he clearly did not want to give it to her. She also
stated that stricter guidelines on reporting by the Chief were not
required.
Ms Rowlands said that the Board generally felt constrained in what
infonnation it could receive about disciplinary matters because of its
duties as prescribed in legislation and particularly its potential
function as an appeal body in disciplinary cases.
The Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board appears to have
boxed itself into a Catch-22 situation. The Chief did not tell the
Board more because it did not ask. The Board did not ask because it
assumed the Chief would not tell.
In order for the Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board to know
whether its policies had been followed in the Junger matter, and
whether the Chief had exercised good judgment, it should have
required answers from the Chief
Since the Board is tbe employer of the force, on behalf of the public,
any resignation agreement with a member of the force should
necessarily be subjected to its approval. The Chief acts as an agent of
the Board in signing an employment-related agreement. Junger's
resignation was approved by the Board, but the Board was not
advised of the agreement.
The Appellate Function
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The Board's expressed concern about jeopardizing its appellate
function by leaming too much about an individual case was,
,.
misplaced. Since Junger had already resigned form the force wren f
the matter came to light publicly, there was no appeal forthcoll?-ing..•
Overall, the Board has made too much of the perceived limitations' •
imposed by its appellate function. There are very few appeals to the
Board in anyone year. In a disciplinary matter where the officer is
still employed by the force, the Board always has an option to refer
an appeal to an outside body if it has leamed too much about the
individual case to give the officer an impartial hearing. Under the old
Act, the Board could refer the appeal to a judge; under the new Act,
it can refer the appeal to the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police
Services.
Safeguard for the Future
In its final submission to the Inquiry, the Metropolitan Toronto
Police Services Board appears to have had second thoughts about
what information it could receive and should have received and what
it should havc done.
The Board submission states pp. 29-30):
The Board is of the view that the reporting which took
place in this instance did not adequately prepare the
Board to respond to this issue when it first arose and
ultimately to protect the interests of the public. More
detailed reporting by the Chief to the Board should have
occurred as per the directives on this issue. Specifically,
such reporting by the Chief should be sut1icient to allow
the Board to identify issues of importance such as the
agreement to resign, whether all charges were properly
investigated and whether all charges that could have
been laid were indeed commenced.
The Board has said in future it will be advised of all resignation
agreements prior to finalization. It also listed in its tinal submission a
host of parameters to govern any future resignation agreements. Most
of the parameters are clearly designed to repudiate the conditions of
the Junger agreement. Anyone reading this list who was not familiar
with the Junger matter would wonder why a Board would find it
necessary to have guidelines stating that "under no circumstances
should an agreement contemplate the destruction of evidence, the
subveliing of the investigation process or the results of any
investigation" or that "the Police Service must be prepared to fully
comply with all of the tenns of any agreement".
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Nevertheless, it is encouraging that the Board is taking such an
interest in the Junger case now.
However, more needs to be done to get to the heatt of the matter. A
major concern for this Inquiry panel is how to ensure that the Police
Services Board is able to fulfil its monitoring function more
effectively in future.
The Board has accepted recommendations from its task force on
modification of repOIting alTangements. The task force said that
Internal affairs should provide quarterly statistical repOIts to the
Board on numbers (not names) of o fticers chargcd with disciplinary
or other offences. The Chief retains discretion to decide which cases
to report to the Board in more detail, but the task force said he
should report on cases "which may affect the reputation or integrity
oft):1e force or an individual member of the force or which may
become a matter of public concern".
We consider the reference by the task force to "discretion" in the
Chiefs repOIting to the Board to be inappropriate. It is important that
Board policy state clearly the obligation of the Chief to report on
cases which involve the integrity of the force or the public interest,
and the obligation of the Board to be so intormed. There should also
be a requirement for regular status repotts on serious disciplinary
matters.
However, we are concerned that putting policies in place that make
the Board the passive recipient of inforn1ation is not enough. Some
mechanism is necessary to allow the Board to assure itself in a more
proactive way that it is fulfilling its role as civilian monitor of
policing services for the community.
This Inquiry received considerable infOlmation on how other forces
operate, including descriptions of six police services which sent
representatives to give evidence:
Hamilton-Wentworth Regional Police Force, Ontario Provincial
Police, Edmonton Police Service, Royal Canadian Mounted Police,
Detroit Police Department and New York City Police Department.
It is not possible or advisable to transplant solutions ready-made
from other jurisdictions, but the experience of other forces is helpful
in suggesting possible options that could be tailored to the Ontario
experience. The Edmonton Police Service, t()r example, uses an
independent complaints monitor to conduct an external review.
Ontario has a Police Complaints Commissioner (PCC) with full-time
staff to oversee public complaints. But it is not the function of the
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pce to monitor if all the policies of the Police Services Board are
being implemented; the pce oversees the public complaints system
only.
The Police Services Board might find it useful to have a monitor
who could cany out an independent review or pertormance audit on
behalf of the Board of the way the force is calTying out Board
policies. For example, later in this report, we recommend limits on
the time it should take for an officer charged with a disciplinary
offence to have his or her case heard. A monitor could conduct a
review to see if the time limits are being adhered to, and if not, why
not.
The Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board should consider
options to fulfil its monitoring role mo~e effectively. The Board
should have some mechanism for monitoring the implementation of
its policies by the fcm':e and the capacity to investigate alleged
problems which may come to light.
This Inquiry had the benefit of an independent audit oflnternal
Affairs files, an independent investigation by a Commission
investigator, and ongoing advice from Commission counsel. These
mechanisms proved very helpful in uncovering problems in
administration of internal investigations by the Metropolitan Toronto
Police Force.
We direct that the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services
be advised within six month of the decisions made by the Police
Services Board on how it will improve its effectiveness in overseeing
implementation of its policies by the force.
Recommendation 1
The Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board should develop
mechanisms to improve its effectiveness in overseeing
implementation a/its policies by the force. The Board should have
the capaci.(y to monitor compliance lvith its policies on an ongoing
basis and to investigate specific matters vrhere necessary as they
arise. The Board shall report to the Ontario Civilian Commission on
Police Sen'ices within six months on the decisiolls it has made to
respond to this recommendation.
Recommendation 2
The Metropolitan Toronto Police Serrices Board should adopt a
polic.v stating clearly alld unequil'ocally the obligation ofthe Chief
to reportjitlly on cases involving alleged wrongdoing by members of
theforce if the integrity oftheforce or the public interest is affected.
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The policy should state the obligation of the Board to be so
informed. In addition, the Board should require regular status
reports on serious disciplinary matters.
Recommendation 3
The i'vietropolitan Toronto Police Sen!ices Board should adopt a
policy recognizing its right and obligation to approve, reject or
amend any employment- related agreements negotiated by the Chief
ofPolice, acting as an agent o.lthe Board.
More about Jane Doc ...
Created: ~eptember 30, 1998
Last modified: September 30, 1998
-S I.i
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L_________
70f7
Commercial Sex Information, Service
Box 3075, Vancollver,.BC v6B 3X6
Tel: +1 (604)488-0710
j·
Email: csis(alwalnet.org
....:
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410
THE ONTARIO CiVILIAN COMMISSION ON POLICE
SERVICES
Report on an inquiry into administration of internal
investigations by the Metropolitan Toronto Police
Force
8.
Professional Standards and Deterrence
Officers who go astray -- whether they become involved in criminal
activity or misconduct of a disciplinary nature -- must know that they
will be caught and prosecuted by a police force that is vigilant in
maintaining the highest standards of protessionalism and integrity.
All of the officers who are a credit to their force and to the
community deserve that assurance. So does the community which
depends on and pays for policing services.
A distinction has been drawn by the highest court in Canada between
proceedings that are criminal or penal in nature and proceedings that
are intended primarily to maintain discipline and professional
integrity or to regulate conduct within a particular group, such as a
police force. The Supreme Court of Canada has cha~acterized
disciplinary matters as "protective or corrective". (Wigglesworth v.
Her Majesty the Queen).
That view was ret1ected in the comments by Superintendent Duncan
Wilson in sentencing Sergeant Brian Whitehead on May 11, 1990:
A major role of the Tribunal Hearing Officer is to set
standards of acceptable behaviour and conduct for
serving members of this Force. The penalties meted out
are not intended to punish, but to renect the seriousness
of the offence and hopefully to act as a specific deterrent
to the individual and a general detelTent to others. The
message should indicate that en·ant behaviour or
misconduct does not meet the standards expected by this
community and demanded by this Force.
In order for the specific and general deterrent effect of discipline
within the force to be effective, appropriate charges must be laid
where they are warranted. In order for the message to get out, the
whole process must be handled openly. The force must act
expeditiously when misconduct is discovered to demonstrate that it
will not tolerate unacceptable behaviour and that it is prepared to
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move quickly to eradicate it.
The Junger Resignation
The commander of Internal Affairs at the time of the Junger matter,
Superintendent Aiden Mahar, testified that he would be tempted to
sign another agreement like the one reached with Junger if it would
get rid of a "bad apple" from the force. He claimed that the Junger
agreement was beneficial to the force and the community.
We strongly disagree. On the face of it, the agreement retlects the
attitude that it is acceptable to bargain away the laying of charges for
a resignation. It is not. It is imperative for public confidence and
police morale that discipline of officers accused of misconduct be
appropriate, just and tair, and that it be perceived to be appropriate,
just and fair.
In a case like Junger's, where the officer resigns and all existing and
potential charges are abandoned and the deal is meant to be kept
secret, the general detelTent etTect is lost. According to the official
record, Junger resigned for personal reasons. What message does that
send to the community and the rest of the force?
When discussions took place between Junger's lawyer and Internal
Affairs about an agreement setting out conditions for the officer's
resignation, no disciplinary charges had been laid, although evidence
had been gathered to justi (y preparation of a brief to the Trials
Preparation Unit on several potential disciplinary charges, including
accepting money for sex, operation ()fthe escort service and
unauthorized use ofCPIC. And there was certainly time between
Dec. 5 (the date of the "sting") and Jan. 19 (when the agreement was
signed) to prepare a brief
As we noted earlier, the force was not prevented from proceeding
with disciplinary charges by the Metro police officers' "Bill of
Rights". The "Bill of Rights" provides that no officer should be
required to face a disciplinary charge ifhe or she has been acquitted
in criminal court on the same matter. But Junger was charged with a
narcotics offence, which was not in any way related to the escort
service or use of the police computer. (We discuss the effect on the
"Bill of Rights" of the new Police Services Act, which was not yet in
effect at the time of the Junger matter, on page 46.)
One of the major justifications we heard for seeking an agreement
for Junger's immediate resif,'11ation was that the disciplinary process
is slow and expensive when the officer is being paid on suspension.
But the force itselfwas clearly in charge of moving the disciplinary
process forward and took no action. If a brief had been prepared and
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charges laid. it is possible that Junger could have been brought
before a disciplinary hearing officer in February, 1990.
In other words, there is a process available to deal with so-called bad
apples. The force chose not to use it. Even in retrospect, after two
years of a Commission inquiry, Internal Affairs still docs not seem to
see any problem. Therefore, the Police Services Board should have a
policy stating explicitly that where there is evidence which could
constitute a basis fc)r disciplinary charges against a member of the
force, charges shall be laid forthwith.
Plea Bargaining
The Whitehead matter raises questions about plea bargaining in
disciplinary cases. In order for a sentence to have the corrective and
protective impact that it should, the penalty must reflect the
seriousness of the offence. The submission by the force's prosecutor
and Whitehead's defence lawyer that Whitehead's sentence should be
no more than loss of vacation and pay was inappropriate.
Supt. Wilson said the offence was so serious that he considered a
penalty of dismissal. But based on the mitigating factors, including
Whitehead's many years of exemplary service, he told Whitehead he
would give him "the opportunity to redeem yourself and continue
your career."
The hearing officer's consideration of dismissal -- the harshest
penalty available for a disciplinary conviction -- and his decision to
demote Whitehead stands in stark contrast to the plea bargain for a
much more lenient penalty. We have been told that about half the
officers charged with disciplinary offences plead guilty. We are
concerned, in light of the Whitehead case, that the force be made
aware of the importance of guarding against bargaining away an
appropriate disposition in exchange for a guilty plea. If the plea
bargain had been accepted in the Whitehead case, the sentence would
have sent an unmistakable message to the public and to other oftIcers
that the force did not view Whitehead's misconduct as particularly
senous.
The fact that Jane Doe was not advised of the hearing and was
therefore not present or represented by counsel meant that her views
on the seriousness of the offence were not heard. Moreover, in the
process of reaching agreement between the prosecutor and defence,
the statement of Jane Doe was changed without her knowledge or
that of the investigating officers. We concur with Commission
counsel's criticism (submission, p. 30):
It may be argued that such an amendment was desirable
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in order to encourage a guilty plea. Such an argument is
misplaced if the officer in question is pleading guilty
upon an inaccurate or misleading set of facts. How could
any legitimate disciplinary or other public interest be
served by such a result?
We discuss the treatment of Jane Doe in more detail in Section 9 of
this report.
The Inquiry panel recognizes that plea discussions are a practical
altemative to a prolonged cOUJi proceeding in the overloaded
criminal COUli system. But there is no particular rcason to engage in
plea bargaining over Police Services Act charges. We did not hear
any evidence that the police disciplinary system is backlogged, or
that prosecutors in the TI1als Preparation Unit are unable to handle
all the cases.
However, given that it is unlikely that plea bargaining will disappear
from the disciplinary system, there should be some constraints -- i.e.
if there are to be any discussions related to plea or other matters,
such as resignation, between prosecution and defence, they should
not take place until after charges are laid, except in exceptional
circumstances.
Recommendation 4
The Metropolitan Toronto Police Sen'ices Board should adopt a
policy stating explicitzy that 'where there is eridence that could
constitute a basis for disciplil1ary charges under the Police Services
Act against a member of the force, chmges shall be laid./orthl1'irh,
Except in exceptional circumstances, there shall be no discussions
between prosecution and defence counsel about plea or other
matters, such as the officer'S resignation, until afier charges are laid.
Delays in Discipline
In the Whitehead matter, disciplinary charges were not laid until
approximately two months after Whitehead was confronted at Jane
Doe's apartment. In the Junger matter, a brief was not given to Trials
Preparation in the six-week period between his suspension and the
signi~lg of the resignation agreement.
We are concemed that there seems to be general acceptance that the
disciplinary process has to take a long time. Delays in the
disciplinary process are almost entirely within the ability of the
Police Services Board and the force to control. If the Board is
concemed about losing money during disciplinary proceedings
because it has to pay officers on suspension or employ them in
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alternate duties off the street while their case is awaiting a hearing, it
should take steps to expedite the disciplinary process.
The Board should issue guidelines to the effect that except in
exceptional circumstances, a disciplinary hearing should be held
within 60 days of the completion of the investigation. As we have
already noted, we heard no evidence that the Trials Preparation Unit
of the force is overburdened with cases, nor was there any evidence
that Internal Affairs is swamped with work. The timelines we
suggest should be achievable. If they are not, the Board should tind
out why.
Recommendation 5
The Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board should issue
guidelines to the effect that e.xcept ill exceptional circumstances, a
hearing into Police Services Act charges should be held within 60
days of the completion of an investigation.
Professional Standards Review Committee
Since this Inquiry began, the Metropolitan Toronto force has
established a new body called the Professional Standards Review
Committee. This committee has two functions. One is to review the
investigation of all criminal allegations against members of the t()rce,
whether or not charges have been laid;· it may direct that flllther
investigation occur. The other is to review all major breaches of
discipline and make recommendations to the Chief or his designate
on the laying of Police Services Act charges.
Members of the committee are to include the Rcgional Director of
Crown Attorneys, the Staff Superintendent in charge of Support
Operations, a Superintendent in charge of Professional Standards, a
Staff Inspector from Trials Preparation and legal counsel for the
Office of the Chief of Police.
This Committee may have been set up with the best of intentions, but
it is unclear what use it will be to have an additional step or layer of
review within the force. We have serious concerns that it will add
further delays to the disciplinary process and will diffuse
accountability. Furthennore, this Committee seems to involve the
Crown in a police investigation, which runs at cross-purposes to the
intent of the force's own Regulation 3. 1.1 which requires that the
Crown be consulted for an opinion in cases of where allegations
against an officer involve possible criminal charges and no charges
are laid (Regulation 3.1.1 is discussed on page 47.)
Recommendation 6
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415
The Metropolitan Toronto Police SCn'ices Board should reconsider
the necessity of the Professional Standards Rel'ic·w Committee on the
basis of concerns that it ·will cause delays and d~ffusc accountability.
On the Record
One of the benefits of having a policy that disciplinary charges will
be laid forthwith in all cases where charges are warranted is to ensure
that the circumstances of the allegations are on the record.
If charges are subsequently dropped as a result of discussions
between the force and defence counsel f()r the of1icer, the withdrawal
of charges will have to be documented, and the Police Services
Board may ask to know why and under what circumstances this
occurred.
If the officer resigns before the charges are disposed of, that
circumstance should be on the officer's record. This would preclude a
promise of a neutral employment reference such as was made in the
Junger agreement. If, for any reason, an ot1icer resigns before
disciplinary charges are laid or resolved, the circumstances should be
noted in the officer's personnel file. If the fanner officer seeks
employment with another force, the prospective employer should be
aware of the true circumstances of the resignation.
It should be routine practice for all police forces to obtain a waiver
under the Municipal Freedom of Information and Protection of
Privacy Act from an individual who had been an officer with
another force and who is seeking employment. The waiver would
allow the force to check the individual's past employment record
with another police t()rce.
The issue of keeping records arose in another context. During
testimony, it was suggested that there should be a record kept of
what Police Services Boards are told about individual disciplinary
cases since the Board may be asked to hear an appeal on the matter.
We agree that minutes should be kept of the information provided in
camera by the Chief to the Board on individual cases. These minutes
would be confidential, but would be made available to counsel for
the officer in the event of an appeal. Having a record of what the
Board knows will provide additional protection to the appellant
officer. If the Board has received too much information on a
particular case to provide an impartial appeal hearing, the case must
be referred to the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services.
Recommendation 7
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In cases 'vvhere an officer resigns while allegations of wrongdoing
against him or her are under im'estigation or disciplinary charges
are not yet disposed of the circumstances of the resignation should
be recorded in the officer's persollneljile and noted in any
employment reference by the police force. All police forces should
routinely obtain a waiver under the MUllicipal Freedom of
Information and Protection of Privacy Act/rom an officer or
former officer seeking employment in order to check the individual's
past employment record with another police force.
Recommendation 8
There should be a record kept o.fwhat Police SenJices Boards are
told about individual cases o.falleged wrongdoing by officers ofthe
force.
Minutes should be kept of the information provided in camera by the
Chief to the Board on specific cases. These confidential minutes
should be made available to counsel for the otllcer in the event of an
appeal to the Board. If the impartiality of the Board is compromised
by infonnation provided on an individual case prior to an appeal, the
appeal should be refelTed to the Ontario Civilian Commission on
Police Services for a hearing.
"Bill of Rights for Police Officers"
The justification in the past for delaying some disciplinary hearings
was written into the Metropolitan Toronto police ofticers "Bill of
Rights". However, new legislation has changed the rules.
The "Bill of Rights for Police Officers" was adopted as policy by the
Metropolitan Toronto Board of Commissioners of Police (now the
Police Services Board) in 1982. One of its provisions says that no
officer should be required to face a disciplinary charge ifhe or she
has been acquitted in criminal court on the same matter.
Traditionally, in cases where both criminal and disciplinary charges
were laid, the disciplinalY charge was held over until there was a
verdict in court. If the officer was acquitted, even on technical
grounds, the disciplinary charge was dropped.
Section 60 (lI) of the new Police Services Act states that if an
officer is charged with an offence under federal or provincial law in
connection with an alleged misconduct, the disciplinmy hearing shall
continue unless the Crown Attorney advises the Chief that it should
be stayed until after the court proceedings.
It has been suggested that the new Act has invalidated the "double
jeopardy" provision of the "Bill of Rights". It is certainly clear from
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the Act that in most cases the disciplinary and criminal proceedings
are meant to be parallel processes, each following its own outcome
independently of the other. It should follow that the outcome of one
does not have to inf1uence the outcome of the other except where the
disciplinary charge is that of being found guilty of a criminal offence.
The Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board should adopt a
policy that disciplinary charges will be laid and prosecuted
independently of the outcome of any criminal charge.
417
In February 1991 ,Chief McCormack issued a routine order
changing force practice to comply with Section 60 (11) of the new
law. However, the relevant section of the "Bill of Rights" has not
been repealed by the Police Services Board.
The "Bill of Rights" also specifies that allegations against police
officers arising from citizen complaints must be proved beyond a
reasonable doubt. This differed from the "balance of probabilities"
proof required for an other prosecutions under the fonner Police Act.
The new Act says in Section 61 (1) that misconduct must be proved
on "clear and convincing evidence" at a disciplinary hearing. The
force has adopted "clear and convincing" as the new evidentiary
burden, but again, the reference to proof beyond a reasonable doubt
remains in the "Bill of Rights". which is still technically a policy of
the Board.
It is impOliant that the Police Services Board examine the "Bill of
Rights" in light of the new legislation. At the very least, provisions
which eonf1ict with the new law should be abolished. The Board
should not maintain policies which nm counter to the letter or the
spirit of the new law.
Recommendation 9
The Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board should review the
"Bill ofRights for Police Officers" to ensure that all provisions of
the Bill conform with the new Police Services Act. In particular, the
Board should revie}v provisions of the "Bill olRights" which provide
that:
• no officer should be required !o.f{Jce disciplinary charges if he
or she is acquitted of an olfence in criminal court on the same
matter; and
• disciplinary charges based on allegations by citizens must be
proved beyond a reasollable doubt.
Criminal Charges
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Where possible criminal charges are involved in an allegation of
wrongdoing against an officer, Regulation 3.1.1 of the Metropolitan
Toronto Police Force states that the Chief shall have the evidence
conceming a criminal act allegedly committed by a member of the
force brought before the Crown Attomey in all instances where a
criminal charge has not been laid.
This requirement is presumably meant to provide assurance that
investigators do not give special treatment to one of their own. The
Crown is to give his or her considered opinion on the matter.
However, Intemal Affairs has interpreted this regulation to mean that
it is not necessary to consult the Crown Attomey if investigators
conclude there is insufficient evidence of criminality. This
interpretation defeats the purpose of the regulation, which is to ask
for independent review by the Crown. The submission of the
Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board states that the existing
regulation provides an unacceptable level of discretion. We agree.
The regulation should be amended to reduce the discretion of police
in detelIDining what constitutes sufficient evidence and to reflect the
intent that the results of all investigations into alleged criminality by
police officers be subject to scmtiny by the Crown Attorney when a
charge is not laid.
The amended regulation should incorporate the procedure adopted by
Intemal Affairs since the inception of this Inquiry that where a
decision is made not to proceed with criminal charges, a written brief
on the case must be presented to the Regional Director of Crown
Attorneys. In addition, the Attorney-General should require that the
Crown be required to provide its opinion in such cases in writing.
Having both the brief and the Crown's opinion in writing will
enhance accountability in the face of potential differences in recall
over what exactly was said. In the case of Whitehead, no wIitten
brief was prepared for the consultation with the Crown. In retrospect,
there are different versions of what exactly the Crown was told about
Jane Doe as a witness. Because there is nothing in writing, it is
impossible to veIify exactly the reasons given by Internal Affairs for
not proceeding with criminal charges against Whitehead.
There was no Crown consultation, and no written briefwas prepared
in the Junger matter in relation to evidence gathered on possible
charges in the unauthorized use of the police computer system
(CPIC) and breach ofrecognizance. Unauthorized use ofCPIC can
result in criminaI.(breach oftmst) or disciplinary charges. A breach
of recognizance is a criminal offence.
The InquilY panel is concemed that all police forces treat any
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violations of the computer system extremely seriously. The farther
technology advances, the more stringently society must safeguard the
privacy of individuals in these computer networks. Criminal and
disciplinary charges should be laid for alleged misuse ofCPIC. The
Solicitor General of Ontario should consult with his federal
counterpart about stepping up random audits by the RCMP to protect
the confidentiality ofCPlC.
We are also concemed that breaches of recognizance by a police
officer should not be treated any differently than the same offence by
a civilian. Junger's association with Roma Langford after his release
should have resulted in his arrest and a charge of breach of
recognIzance.
The Junger deal was put in writing, but written resignation
agreements are extraordinarily rare. A suggestion could be made
orally to an Dfficer that it would be better to quit than face charges.
One Internal Affairs officer told the Inquiry that he was aware of
other instances where the force had suggested withdrawal of criminal
charges in return for resignation when there was evidence to convict.
Recommendation 10
Regulation 3. /.J should be amended to reduce the discretion of
police in determining what constitutes sl!fficient evidence and to
reflect the intent that the resllits ofall investigations into alleged
criminality by police ojficers be subject to sCn/tiny by the Crown
Attorne.v when a charge is not laid, The amended regulation should
specff5' that where a decision is made not to proceed with criminal
charges, a full and complete H'ritten briefon the case must be
presented to the Regional Director of Crown Attorneys, The
Attorney-General should require that the Crown provide its opinion
in such cases in writing.
Recommendation 11
Evidence o/any llse of the police computer network (CPIC) by
members ofa police force for reasons other than the necessary
performance o/rheir duties should result in the laying o/criminal
and disciplinary charges. The Solicitor General o..fOntario should
consult with his federal counterpart about stepping up random
audits by the RCMP to protect the confidentiality ofCPIC
Recommendation 12
Breaches ofrecognizance by a police officer should not be treated
any d~fferently than the same offence by a civilian,
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Detention and Arrest
Serious questions have been raised about the propriety of the arrests
in the Junger and Whitehead cases.
The investigations carried out by Internal Atlairs were skillful and
professional in both cases. However, the investigators made arrests
when they admitted that they had no intention of proceeding with the
criminal charges for which the arrests were made.
In the case of Junger, the a1Testing officer said he did not believe that
there was sufficient evidence for a charge ofliving off the avails of
prostitution. He said he atTested Junger on that chat'ge after the
"sting" in the hotel room because he wanted to caution Junger in case
he said anything incriminating: However, the investigator did not
question Junger on the prostitution charge. lfhe was expecting
Junger to make an incriminating statement, why did he not question
hini? Instead, he released Junger unconditionally shortly thereafter.
No arrest report was made on the prostitution charge. Junger was
re-arrested later the same night on a narcotics charge.
Witnesses tor Internal Atfairs testified that the arrest on the
prostitution charge was proper. They said for an officer to make an
arrest, he or she must have reasonable and probable grounds to
believe an offence was committed. The standard for laying a charge,
they said, is a higher one; the officer must believe that the offence
was actually committed. We concur with the submission by
Commission counsel (p. 17) that this distinction "amounts to
sophistry in the context of the Junger an·est."
Evidence was presented that Internal Affairs is staffed with senior
police officers so that in the event of a disciplinary matter, they can
give orders to an officer to cooperate. This option was not used in
either case.
In the Whitehead matter, investigators said they arrested Whitehead
for sexual assault and extoltion offences against Jane Doe because
they were concerned he was going to assault one of them when he
was confronted at Jane Doe's apartment. They said they did not
intend to proceed with the assault and extOltion charges.
Nonetheless, Whitehead was detained at headquarters. He was not
fOlmally interrogated in relation to the offences for which he was
arrested. No criminal infonnation was sworn and no aJTest report was
made. When he was sent home, he was not ot1icially released from
arrest.
The power of arrest is such an extraordinary power that it must be
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treated with !:,'Teat caution. If a police force would arrest two of its
own officers when the investigators had no intention oflaying
charges based on those offences, can the public expect the force to
follow correct procedures in the arrest of a civilian?
The power of alTest is not to be taken lightly. Police should not make
an arrest except for those purposes specifically contemplated by the
Criminal Code. The Criminal Code is clear on the powers of arrest
for police officers. The Chief of Police should make it very clear to
the force that he expects officers of the Metropolitan Toronto force
to use the power of atTest in strict accordance with the Code and that
failure to do so will result in discipline.
Recommendation 13
The Chief of Police should clarify to the/orce that the power 0/
arrest should onzv be used ill strict accordance with the Criminal
Code o/Canada and that/ai/ure to do so will result in discipline.
Relationship with Police Complaints Commissioner The InquiJy
panel commissioned retired Justice R. E. Holland Q.c. to examine
the/lies kept by Internal Affairs/or the period December 1984 to
October 1990. Mr. Justice Holland determined that during that time,
the Public Complaints Commissioner. /lOW called the Police
Complaints Commissioner (PCC). had not been advised of 192
internal Affairs investigations which qllal~fied as public complaints.
-
.
It would appear that a tradition had evolved whereby the
Commissioner was not notified of cases involving alleged criminal
activity by an oftlcer. The reason for this practice, according to
witnesses before the Inquiry, is that the Police Act could not override
the Criminal Code of Canada.
It is surprising that this exception to the rule was not noticed before
now, given the ongoing consultation between the force and the PCC
and the fact there were highly publicized prosecutions of police
officers involving public complaints handled by Internal Affairs.
However, it is unnecessary for this Inquiry to determine the Oligins
of this practice, the effect of which was to set criminal investigations
by Internal Affairs outside the purview of the public complaints
system.
It is sufficient that once this non-compliance with the legislation was
revealed through the Inquiry, it was rectified. The PCC is now
advised of public complaints brought to the attention ofInternal
Affairs that involve alleged criminal activity.
The Inquiry panel has also been advised that discussions between the
PCC and the force have resolved another outstanding issue involving
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the confidentiality of names of police intolmants.
422
There is another issue which arose in the context of the Junger and
Whitehead matters. In both cases, the person who came forward did
not want the case to go to the pee. Particularly in the case of
Whitehead, Jane Doe indicated that she was aware of the public
complaints system and did not want her complaint to be monitored.
Her major concern was that more people would be aware of her
name and the circumstances of the alleged offence.
Most people will support having their complaint monitored by the
pee. But there may be some, like Langford and Jane Doe, who want
the infonnation they provide kept confidential within the force.
There may be a few who will not cooperate unless they are assured
that their case will not be subject to the public complaints system.
It is our view that the individual should have a choice. We also
believe that it is more important to ensure that all information of
alleged police wrongdoing is brought forward for investigation than
to risk losing any inforn1ation because the individual does not want
pee monitoring.
However, we are concerned that there not be any undue influence or
even the appearance of undue intluence by police to discourage
anyone from going through the pee process. Therefore, the person
should sign an acknowledgement that he or she has chosen not to
have the file sent to the pee. The acknowledgement must also make
it clear that the individual can change his or her mind at any time if
unsatisfied with the investigation.
A file number, without name or particulars, should also be sent to the
pee. That way, the pee will be aware that the file exists and may
inquire as to its disposition.
The Inquiry panel is aware that an explicit choice is not written into
the Act, but neither is any special provision for police inionnants,
which has been negotiated by the pee and the force. Giving people a
choice of the route they wish to take should be allowable on the basis
that they are providing infonnation, rather than making a fonnal
complaint within the meaning of the legislation.
Recommendation 14
Civilians who bring information to a police force about alleged
wrongdoing by an officer should have the option to sign an
acknmvledgement saying that they do not wish their complaint to be
sent to the Police Complaints Commissioner/or monitoring. The
acknowledgement must state clear~y that the individual may go to the
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PCC at any time should the perSOll be dissatisfied with the conduct
of the investigation. The force must llot~fjl the PCC of the file
number. without name or particulars.
423
Role and Reporting of Internal Affairs
It was noted in Section 3 of this repOlt that Intemal Affairs is not the
only unit of the force which deals with allegations against members
of the force. Unit commanders may authmize investigations into
misconduct reported to them. The Public Complaints Bureau (PCB)
also deals with allegations against police officers.
It has been suggested that there should be a central clearinghouse
within the force tor all cases involving allegations against officers.
The division oflabour on these kinds of cases does appear to be
somewhat arbitrary. Traditionally, Jntemal Affairs was supposed to
handle climinal matters, but the bureau and unit commanders also
investigate some allegations involving criminal activity.
Some matters which are reported in the field may be referred to
Intemal Affairs for investigation. Intemal Affairs is also supposed to
review investigations by other units of the force, except files of the
PCB which are reviewed by the Police Complaints Commissioner.
Intemal Affairs appears to perform a rather passive "review" role in
regard to the files of investigations calTied out by other units. We did
not hear evidence of anything being accomplished by these reviews.
Internal Affairs has traditionally been a special unit, set apart from
other units of the force, repOlting separately to the Chief The new
organization chart for the force indicates that Internal Affairs will
now report to the Deputy Chief, Support Command, who is also in
charge of the bureau.
This reorganization should help to clarify accountability. There will
be one Deputy Chief receiving reports on Intemal Affairs
investigations and review files, as well as overseeing the Public
Complaints Bureau. Thus there will be a senior officer who reviews
all the investigations into alleged misconduct by officers, regardless
of the source of the allegation or who investigates it.
We understand the need for a unit like Intemal Affairs which can
maintain files confidential fi'om other units of the force. If word
leaked out within the force about an internal investigation, it might
jeopardize the success of the investigation. However, it is also
important that investigators not be working at cross-purposes on
cases of alleged wrongdoing by members of the force.
Given the fact that Internal Affairs does not review PCB files and
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424
that the tiles of Intemal Affairs are kept separately ii-om PCB files,
two investigators from different units could be working on related
matters and not know it. We suggest that the force work on
mechanisms to ensure the optimum flow of information for internal
investigations, while protecting the confidentiality of sensitive case
files.
Recommendation 15
The Merropolitan Toronto Police Force should develop mechanisms
to ensure the optimum flow 0/ in/ormation to aid in internal
investigations and to protect the cOl?:/identiality ofsensitive case
Jiles.
Public CompJaints: Standard of Proof
The new Police Services Act requires "clear and convincing" proof
for a conviction. But in practice, the Metropolitan Toronto force is
using the test of "clear and convincing evidence" in a way not
mandated by the Act.
The Act gives thc Chief of Police the responsibility and authority to
investigate any apparent or alleged misconduct by a police officer on
the force. Section 90 states that the Chief of Police shall review the
final· report of the investigation of a public complaint and may order
further investigation.
The Chief may then:
a.
b.
c.
d.
e.
decide that no fmther action is necessary;
admonish the officer;
hold a disciplinary hearing;
order a healing by a board of inquilY; or
cause criminal charges to be laid and refer the matter to the
Crown Attomey for prosecution.
The Act is silent on the standard of proof required for the initial
assessment of a complaint. There are no procedures established for
the Metropolitan Toronto Police Force by the Chieffor deciding
which public complaints require further action.
Deputy Chief Peter Scott, who has acted as the Chief's designate in
reviewing the investigation of public complaints, told the Inquiry that
the force requires "clear and convincing evidence" to proceed further.
He interpreted that to mean "a strong belief" that the alleged
misconduct occuned. He also said that there should be corroborative
evidence to substantiate the complaint, although the law does not
specifically require it.
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We agree with the concems expressed by Commission counsel in his
submission (P.7):
The function of the complaint review officer under
Section 90 (3) of the Act would appear to be akin to that
of a justice of the peace: however, as interpreted by
Deputy Chief Scott, the function he actually perfonns is
that of a judge deciding a complaint on its merits. The
position taken by Deputy Chief Scott is somewhat
illogical; ifhe decides that a complaint has no merit, he
dismisses it, but ifhe decides that a case has merit, he
may direct a disciplinary hearing where another officer
will decide the same question.
Approximately 95 per cent of the complaints that are reviewed by the
force's complaint review officer, based on documentary evidence,
result in no action. The Inquiry believes that the standard ofproof
used by the force at the initial stage of review is too high. It may
result in valid complaints not being given a full and proper hearing.
Given the sensitivity around the police investigating themselves, and
the relatively few complaints in Metropolitan Toronto that have been
considered at this early stage to wan-ant further action, we believe
that a new standard should be adopted for the initial review of
investigations of public complaints.
In cases where the decision is to "admonish the officer" in
accordance with sec. 90 (b), we would maintain Deputy Chief Scott's
standard of "clear and convincing evidence" since the case is being
decided and resolved. In all other cases (sec. 90 a, c, d and e), where
either no action will be taken or a hearing will be held, we
recommend that the Criminal Code standard for the laying of a
criminal infcmnation -- reasonable and probable grounds -- be used.
Since cOIToboration is not required by the Police Services Act to
substantiate public complaints, there is no reason for the
Metropolitan Toronto force to require it.
We believe this new standard balances the need for faimess to the
accused and the need for an open, visible process for dealing with
public complaints against police.
Recommendation 16
The Chiefof Policefor Metropolitan Toronto should adopt a new
standard ofprooffor the preliminmy revie·w of investigation reports
ofpublic complaints against police officers. The standard should
require that the complaint review officer use the Crimi1lal Code
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standard ofreasonable and probable grounds in deciding to:
•
•
•
•
426
take no further action;
hold a disciplinary hearing;
order a hearing ~y a board o/inquiry: or
cause criminal charges to be laid and reler the matter to the
Crown Attorney for prosecution.
The complaint officer should have clear and convincing evidellce to
make ajinding that an officer should be admonished. Corroboration
of a complaint should not be required beJe)reJi.rther action can be
taken.
More about Jane Doe ...
Created: January 21, 1997
Last modified: February 12, 1997
,7
of17
I ~rzlll
Commel·cial Sex Information Service
Box 3075, Vancouver, BC V6B 3X6
Tel: +1 (604) 488-0710
Email: csis(a'walnct.org
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427
THE ONTARIO CIVILIAN COMMISSION ON POLICE
SERVICES
Report on an inquiry into administration of internal
investigations by the Metropolitan Toronto Police
Force
-
9.
Treatment of Victims
The focus of this section is the treatment of victims of alleged
wrongdoing by police. lfpolice forces expect civilians to come'
forward with intc)lTIlation about allegations against police, they wiII
have to reassure the public that those individuals will be involved
and supported throughout the process.
The Whitehead Matter and Jane Doe
The case of Constable, formerly Sergeant Brian Whitehead,
highlighted serious problems in the treatment of victims by the
Metropolitan Toronto Police Force. The issue that is the most
difficult to define is also the most troubling - the attitude of Internal
Affairs investigators to Jane Doe as a potential witness and the effect
of that attitude on a potential criminal prosecution.
Jane Doe came to the Internal Affairs unit accompanied by her
lawyer to provide infonnation about a police officer who had
allegedly extorted sexual services from her while she was working as
a prostitute by threatening to arrest her if she did not cooperate.
It is impoliant to note at the outset of this discussion that the Internal
Affairs investigators acted quickly and professionally to tlnd out the
identity of the officer described by Jane Doe and to set up the
encounter at her residence. The investigators were solicitous of Jane
Doe's physical weIl-being, and they tried to be supportive,
paIiicularly when Whitehead was confronted at her apartment.
It is also important to note that Jane Doe's story checked out in all
respects. There was even corroboration from another police officer to
whom Whitehead gave false intonnation about the nature of his
dealings with Jane Doe on the night in question.
Why then was there no criminal prosecution for sexual assault and
extoliion, the charges for which Whitehead was arrested? The
investigators said they made the detennination very early on in the
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investigation that there should not be criminal charges laid against
Whitehead because Jane Doe would not cooperate in a criminal
prosecution and would not be a good witness. They portrayed her in
that light in an infonnal conversation with a Crown Attorney, with
the result that their decision not to prosecute was confinned.
They based their evaluation of Jane Doe pattly on her initial
reluctance to testifY in court because of concern about her identity
being revealed in a criminal process. But they refused to re-evaluate
their position when, not long after the incident Jane Doe intonned
Internal Affairs that she was prepared to testify and wanted
Whitehead to be charged with a criminal offence.
They based their conclusion that she would be an unreliable witness
mainly on her behaviour very ShOlily after the offence - she was
tearful when she reported it and she suffered an emotional collapse
when Whitehead was confronted by the investigators at her home.
One of the investigators also referred to concems about some
"bizarre" fanner occurrences involving Jane Doe, but these matters
were never shown to have any bearing on her reliability as a witness.
Again, the investigators did not reconsider their opinion as
circumstances changed, as Jane Doe began to recover, and indicated
she was strong enough to cope with a climinal proceeding. As
counsel for Jane Doe has argued, they appeared not to understand or
take into account how the trauma of sexual assault or abuse nonnally
affects women.
All victims of sexual assault are traumatized by the incident. They
need time to recover. Many of them worry about how they could
have prevented the assault. Jane Doe's effort and initiative in
contacting Intemal Affairs later to say she was prepared to testify
should have been recognized as a sign of emotional recovery, not a
sign of erratic behaviour.
Not only did Internal Affairs investigators refuse to reconsider a
potential criminal prosecution, they kept Jane Doe at ann's length
from the disciplinary proceedings against Whitehead. They even
refused to give her Whitehead's name. Their explanation was that
they did not know what she would do with it. Perhaps they felt
protective of a fellow officer. Perhaps they felt they were protecting
Jane Doe from herself. Either way, their response was unacceptable.
Names of officers facing disciplinary hearings are not supposed to be
secret.
Disciplinary hearings are not in-house matters to be dealt with in
private by the force. Jane Doe should have been inforn1ed and
involved. Furthennore, it is presumptuous and patronizing to make
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decisions on behalf of an adult who is capable of deciding on her
own what is best for her. Police otTicers must take into account the
greater good of the community in their decisions, but they should not
presume to know what is best for an individual victim without
consulting the person.
The sad thing is that the response of the force to Jane Doe only got
worse. She was not notified, as the key witness, of the disciplinary
proceeding. Neither was her lawyer. Her statement was changed at
the hearing by the prosecutor, at the insistence of Whitehead's
lawyer, without her knowledge or concurrence. The prosecutor and
defence agreed on a penalty of days' off (which was rejected by the
hearing officer). During the hearing, in her absence, the promise to
Jane Doe to protect her identity was ignored, and her name was
entered into the transcript.
The subsequent treatment of Jane Doe by senior management of the
force seemed to emanate from a quite remarkable fog of ignorance.
It is almost unbelievable that -- having failed to notify Jane Doe of
the disciplinary healing, having reneged on a commitment to keep
her name confidential, and having made unauthorized changes to her
statement at the hearing - the force would call a news conference in
which the Chiefblamed Jane Doc for not showing up at the hearing
and protecting her own interests. To add insult to injury, Jane Doe
was also forced to go to court for an injunction to prevent her name
being disclosed through publ ic release of the transcript by the force.
The force was simply too eager to deflect any public criticism from
itself It reacted defensively and in the process disregarded the
interests of an individual who was twice victimized -- by the original
offence and by the police disciplinary system.
"Disturbing Echoes"
As explained in the Preface to this report, a Commission investigator
and Commission counsel examined cases from the submission by
Alan Story that involved Internal Affairs in its investigative or
review functions. Since these cases were not the subject of sworn
evidence and the investigations could not be completed, they were
given less consideration by the Inquiry panel than the Whitehead and
Junger cases.
This report does not discuss any of these cases in detail. However, it
is important to note that there were, as Commission counsel's report
to the Inquiry observes, some "disturbing echoes" in these cases. In
this context, we will refer to three cases which involved offences
against women.
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Constable S
Following an investigation by Internal Affairs, Constable S. was
charged on September 12, 1988 with sexual assault and two other
related charges. The alleged victim was a female police cadet. The
constable was also charged with three Police Act charges of
discreditable conduct. On September 29, those charges were
adjourned indetinitely pending the outcDme of criminal charges (See
discussion of the police "Bill of Rights".)
Constable S was assigned to clerical duties. There was a series of
adjournments in the criminal proceedings until -- two years later -- in
September, 1990, Constable S. pleaded guilty to sexual assault and
the other charges were withdrawn. He was given a suspended
·sentence and one year of probation. By that time, he had already
retired from the force effective September 1, 1990, with full pension
and it was too late to proceed with Police Act charges.
There is no evidence that police investigators assisted in the delay in
the courts, but they were aware of it. A review of the court
transcripts shows that no steps were taken by the Crown or the force
to expedite the hearing even though disciplinary charges had been
delayed to await the outcome. The Crown and the force appeared to .
share the view that the issue of whether the accused would get his
full pension was relevant. It is reasonable to ask if a civilian in like
circumstances would have received similar treatment.
Constable G
Another case in 1988 involved Constable G. who sent a threatening
message fi'om his squad car to a female constable. The two had been
living together and had separated. The message to Constable B. said
that Constable G. had purchased a new weapon with a compact
scope and "you'd better learn to hide."
The female constable reported the threat to her sergeant who
launched an immediate investigation, which was conducted by the
Criminal Investigation Bureau. Constable G. admitted sending the
message, was arrested and detained until released by a Justice of the
Peace on a recognizance with conditions that he have no contact with
Constable B. and that he not possess fireanns or ammunition. The
charge was uttering a threat to cause death or bodily harm.
Constable G. pleaded guilty to a lesser criminal charge of conveying
a false message with intent to alann and was given an absolute
discharge. There was no suggestion that the force pressured the
Crown to reduce the criminal charge, and the Crown did not support
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the absolute discharge handed down by the trial judge.
Constable G. also pleaded guilty to five Police Act charges. The
penalty for the Police Act charges was a total of 16 days off:
• 10 days off for being found guilty of a criminal offence;
• 6 days off consecutive for apparently removing another
constable's handcuffs from his locker;
• 6 days off concun-ent for damaging his own handcuffs;
• 2 days off concurrent for failing to report the damage to the
handcuffs;
• 4 days off concun-ent for the unauthOlized use of equipment in
his cruiser to send the message that was the subject of the
climinal charge.
Based on the penalty, we agree with counsel's assessment that it is
reasonable to assume that the hearing oftIcer considered the
threatening message to be scarcely more serious than the Constable's
treatment of his handcuffs (Constable G. damaged his handcuffs
during an incident in which he handcuffed himself to Constable B).
It took approximately 18 months to resolve the criminal charges and
another month to resolve the disciplinary charges. Internal AfTairs
maintained a review file on this case to no apparent purpose.
Constable JBS
The last case involves Constable JBS and a reported rape in 1987 of
a woman who was applying to become a police constable. The report
of the sexual assault was made by a hospital socialworker. The
victim had hesitated to report the assault because of her pending
application for employment.
The investigation, conducted by Internal Affairs, involved the victim
wearing a device to record a conversation with the Constable. A
review of the tape indicated there was evidence to meet the standard
of reasonable and probable grounds that a criminal offence had
occun-ed. Internal AfTairs tound the complaint to be substantiated,
but the investigators said the victim agreed to cooperate with a
Police Act proceeding only.
The Constable was removed from duty and interviewed by Internal
AfTairs. He gave a full statement and offered to resign. He resigned
the same day. No charges were laid. The Crown was not consulted,
as required by force regulation.
After his resignation, JBS applied to the opp for employment. The
Metropolitan Toronto force refused to supply the opp with any work
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information or the reason for his resignation. His personnel file listed
resignation for "personal reasons". He was hired and later dismissed
by the OPP.
432
Counsel tried unsuccessfully to interview the victim and the
Constable in this case.
Reasons for Concern
It is important to reiterate that these cases are not supported by sworn
testimony before the Inquiry. However, they do not provide any
reassurance about the treatment of women who are victims of sexual
assault, harassment or abuse -- even when those women are
themselves police officers or officers-in-training.
The submission on behalf of Jane Doe .asks in relation to the
investigation and prosecution of Climes against women (p. 10).
"What role do outmoded and discredited attitudes toward domestic
violence and pressures and sexual harassment of women, whether
prostitutes or not, play in the exercise of discretion in these
(Whitehead and Junger) cases? The cases documented in the Story
Submissions and Summary do not answer these questions but rather
reinforce the concern."
Like the Whitehead case, the matter of Constable JBS involved
allegations of sexual assault which were substantiated. There were
reasonable and probable grounds for laying criminal charges, and
charges were not laid. The force's reply is that the victims did not
want to proceed with criminal charges. But what support was offered
to them to encourage them to cooperate? Jane Doe asked to testifY in
criminal court when she recovered, with no result. Was the victim in
the Constable JBS case given a chance to recover and reconsider?
Investigators dismissed Jane Doe almost from the beginning as a
credible witness; however, she appeared as a credible and relatively
composed witness before this Inquiry.
The treatment of a female witness was also a factor in the Junger
matter. Although Roma Langford had asked the investigators not to
tell Junger of her involvement in his arrest and although she had
expressed some fear of Junger, they told Junger it was Langford who
reported him. After Junger's arrest, Internal Affairs was told that
Junger had breached his recognizance by associating with Langford.
Instead of recognizing that this breach could endanger the case
against Junger by exposing the witness to potential pressure from the
accused, Internal Atfairs treated it as a domestic situation in which
they did not wish to interfere.
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After Langford and Junger got together again, Langford went to
Junger's lawyer and retracted her statement that the narcotic belonged
to Junger. No effort was made to establish whether Langford had felt
pressured by Junger to change her story. The investigators concluded
their case was lost.
It has not gone unnoticed that the force was adamant about getting
rid of an officer accused of prostituting himself, and did not have the
same level of concern about an officer accused of sexual assault and
extortion of a prostitute. Counsel for Jane Doe alleges that
"stereotyped beliefs playa significant role in the assessment of the
credibility of women complainants, and the seriousness of offences
against women." (p.IS)
Our mandate does not encompass inquiring into the state of
investigations and prosecutions into crimes against women-.
However, there has been sufficient concern raised at this Inquiry that
would lead us to ask the question: How are female victims,
particularly victims of sexual crimes, treated by the police and the
justice system? How can police forces be more effective in gaining
the cooperation of victims?
Women view a court hearing 011 sexual assault as another ordeal to
be endured. But with greater support and understanding from the
police, as well as others, more of them will come forward to testifY.
Confidentiality
One of the issues of concern for women who are victims of sexual
crimes is maintaining their individual privacy. It was a major
concern f()r Jane Doe.
During the Inquiry, Chief McCorn1ack apologized to Jane Doe for
the lack of communication and for risking disclosure of her identity.
He said steps had been taken to ensure that the force in future will
advise victims of disciplinary proceedings, and that names of
accused officers are now posted outside the Tribunal office. The
Chief said that confidentiality of names would be protected better in
future.
To avoid a repetition of what happened to Jane Doe, the Police
Services Board should implement a clear-cut policy requiring that all
complainants be advised of the status and timing of the disciplinary
process. Victims must be assured that they will have the right to ask
the hearing officer to protect their anonymity and to hold the hearing
in camera.
Having the option of an in-camera hearing will not necessarily
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prevent a recurrence of what happened to Jane Doe. The
Metropolitan Toronto force will have to demonstrate by its actions in
future that it is sensitive to the vulnerability of victims, particularly
where the alleged offender is a police officer, and mindful of the
need to protect anonymity in certain cases.
In a criminal prosecution, the law offers a means of preventing
publication of the names of victims of sexual crimes at a preliminmy
hearing or trial. However, it is not currently within the authority of a
Justice of the Peace to issue a non-publication order when a charge is
first laid. Protection from publication of names of victims of sexual
Climes should be available throughout the process. We would like to
see this matter studied by the federal Justice Minister.
Task Force
Counsel for Jane Doe has suggested that a study be conducted into
the treatment of women complainants and offences against women.
We agree that more must be done to grapple with this issue. There is
something seriously wrong when sexual assaults are going
unprosecuted in cascs where the accused is identified, and the
allegations are substantiated by police investigators.
Police forces should be interested in ways of ensuring that more
cases go to court. It is frustrating i()[ police to substantiate that an
offence has been committed and not be able to proceed because of
the reluctance of the victim. For the victim, the longer-term
consequences of avoiding facing the accused can be devastating.
We recommend that a task force be established by the Attorney
General to develop practical means of supporting victims so as to
encourage their cooperation in testifying against perpetrators of
sexual crimes. The findings of the task force should help police
forces to prosecute more sexual assaults successfully. The task force
should not be limited to cases where thc accused is a member of a
police force, but it should give special consideration to that aspect of
the issue.
Based on the practical measures developed by the work ofthe task
force, all Police Services Boards should develop strategies to support
victims of sexual assault and encourage their cooperation in
prosecutions. Special consideration should be given to cases where
the accused is a police officer.
Once these strategies are in place, all Police Services Boards should
develop policies for the vigorous prosecution of all sexual assaults.
The measure of success of these initiatives should be when sexual
assault is prosecuted in every case where there are reasonable and
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435
probable grounds to lay a charge.
Recommendation 17
The Attorney General of Ontario should appoint a taskforce to
develop practical mechanisms and measures to support victims so as
to encourage their cooperation in test[/ying against perpetrators of
sexual crimes. Thefindings of the taskforce should help police to
prosecute more sexual assalllts success/idly. The taskforce should
not be limited to cases where the accused is a member ofa police
force, but it should give special consideration to that aspect of the
issue.
Recommendation 18
Based 011 the work of/he
task.force, all Police Services Boards in
.
Ontario should develop strategies to support victims ofsexual
assa1llt and encourage their cooperation in prosecutions. Special
consideration should be given to support for victims in cases where
the accused is a police officer. Once these strategies are in place. all
Police Services Boards should develop policies committing their
police/orces [0 the l·igorous prosecution oIall sexual assaults.
,.'--
Recommendation 19
The Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board should adopt
policies on the support for and involvement of complainants against
po/ice. Victims should be assured that the.v will be advised of the
progress of disciplinary proceedings and will be able to participate.
Victims should also be assured they ,l'il! have the right to request
anonymity and a closed hearing. at the discretion of the hearing
officer. in cases involving sexual crimes.
Recommendation 20
The Attorney General should consult with his federal and provincial
counterparts on the feasibility o.lprotecting the identity o.fvictims of
sexual assault immediately on the laying o.f a charge.
More about Jane Doe ...
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436
THE ONTARIO CIVILIAN COMMISSION ON POLlCE
SERVICES
Report on an inquiry into administration of internal
investigations by the Metropolitan Toronto Police
Force
10.
Conclusion
In its final submission to this Inquiry -- two years after the Junger
case became a public issue -- the Metropolitan Toronto Police
Services Board has indicated that it is prepared to assume greater
responsibility in future (p. 33):
The Board is in agreement that with the benefit of
hindsight, it could have done much more than it did with
regards to the Junger matter.
The admission is belated, but welcome. However, we believe the
Board must go further than what it has proposed in its submission.
To indicate its resolve to exercise its responsibility for the quality of
policing in Metropolitan Toronto, the Board should review its
policies and procedures to ensure that it is representing the
expectations of the community, providing direction for effective
management of the force and fulfilling its function to direct and
monitor the performance of the Chief.
The Board should review all the evidence presented during this
Inquiry and take whatever action it considers to be necessary and
appropriate.
Despite Police Chief McConnack's defence of his own and the
force's actions during testimony before this Inquiry, the final
submission by counsel on behalf of the Chief (p. 2) at least
acknowledged that:
... concerns which have emerged dUling the course of this
Inquiry have provided further initiative for the
re-evaluation of practices and procedures relating to
internal investigations.
It is essential that the Metropolitan Toronto force continue to
re-evaluate and improve, in keeping with the new Police Services
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Act and in light oflegitimate concerns that police who police
themselves must do so with the utmost rigour.
437
It is unfortunate that the Internal Affairs unit has chosen, in the final
analysis, to defend its actions as "totally proper, totally correct and
totally legal". As we have already noted, Internal Affairs
demonstrated skill and thoroughness in the gatheling of evidence in
the Junger and Whitehead cases. But, as has been documented
throughout this report, its subsequent performance was anything but
perfect.
The attitude of Internal affairs, as expressed in its tlnal submission,
seems to be that its members have leamed nothing from this Inquiry,
and have nothing to learn.
That is an attitude that has to change.
All police officers must be cognizant of their duty to the public. But
officers who handle investigations into alleged wrongdoing by
members of their own force must be especially sensitive to the need
to be fair, open and accountable and to demonstrate the highest
standards of integrity and professionalism.
Our hope is that this Inquiry will lead to a more responsible and
accountable police torce and Police Services Board. But that will
only happen if those involved are willing to accept criticism,
recognize that errors were made and make changes.
To be effective, police need community suppOli and cooperation.
That support and cooperation is based in part on confidence in the
integrity of the force to police its own. It must be made clear to all
the people who live and work in Metro and who visit here that the
Metropolitan Toronto police Force is detennined to investigate
alleged wrongdoing by officers and prosecute substantiated cases
vigorously and expeditiously. Public contidence depends on it.
It will not be sufficient for the Police Services Board and the Chief to
make statements to that effect. The commitment will have to extent
to every unit commander and every division of the toree. It will have
to be demonstrated that mistakes of the past will not be repeated.
We direct that the Police Services Board and the Chief report to the
Ontario Civilian Commission on the Police Services within six
month on the actions taken in response to this report .
. Education of Boards
Testimony at this Inquiry indicated a considerable amount of
confusion and misunderstanding about the role of Police Services
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Boards -- how much they can become involved in management of
the torce, what information they are entitled to have, and what their
responsibilities are.
438
The Solicitor General of Ontario should implement an educational
program for members of Police Services Boards across Ontario to
ensure that they are app11sed of their authority and responsibilities.
This is an opportune time for training for all board members, given
that a new Police Services Act came into effect only last year.
Police Services Boards across Ontm10 should take into account the
recommendations in this report which relate to policies of the
Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board and practices of the
force. In particular, Boards should review their own requirements for
reporting by the Chief of Police, and policies and procedures tor the
laying of criminal or disciplinary charges against officers.
Recommendation 21
To indicate its resolve to exercise its responsibilities for the quality
ofpolicing in Metropolitan Toronlo, the Police Services Board
should rCl'ievv its policies and procedures to ensure that it is
representing the expectations of the community, providing direction
for effective management oltheforce, and fill/Wing itsfimction to
direct and monitor the performance of the Chief The I!oard should
review the evidence presented during this Inquiry and take whatever
action it considers to be necessary and appropriate.
Recommendation 22
The Metropolitan Toronto Police Services Board and the Chief of
Police shall report to the Ontario Civilian Commission on Police
sen'ices within six monlhs on actions taken in response to this
report.
Recommendation 23
The Solicitor General of Ontario should implement an educational
program for members of Police Services Boards across Ontario 10
ensure that they are apprised of their authority and responsibilities.
Recommendation 24
Police Services Boards across Ontario should reyiew their policies
and procedures to ensure that they COl71p(v with the spirit a/the
recommendations in this report that aifect the manner in which
Boards carry out their responsibilities.
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More about Jane Doe ...
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Tel: + 1 (604) 488-071 0
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440
This is Exhibit
f
referred to in the affidavit of
this a~ day of ~cD 2007
~retcH
441
HOUSE OF COMMONS
CHAMBRE DES COMMUNES
Issue No. 20
Fascicule nO 20
Thursday, December 7, 1989
Le jeudi 7 decembre 1989
Chairman: Robert Horner
President: Robert Horner
Minutes of Proceedings, and Evidence of the
StandingComniitteeon
Proces-verbaux er lI!moignages du Comire
permanent de La
Jus(ice'llpd the
Solicitor General,
Justice 'et du
Solliciteur general
RESPECTING:
CONCERNANT:
Order of Reference of April 5, 1989 concerning the
three year Review of Section 213 of the Criminal
Code (Prostitution-Soliciting)
Ordre de renvoi du 5 avril 1989 concernant
I'examen triennal de I'article 213 du Code criminel
(Prostitution-racolage)
WITNESSES:
TEMOINS:
(See back cover)
(Voir
Second Session of the Thirty-fourth Parliament,
1989
Deuxieme session de la trente-quatrieme legislature,
1989
a I'endos)
:.. ">
~~
.•
')
I
f
34513-1
442
ITmel
ITraduction I
Ms Bennett: Because in serious matters that is where
the serious concern is. In serious matters, we want to be
able to find the person who has broken into the homes
and the person who has robbed, etc. The best way we can
do that is through fingerprinting, so if that person flees
the jurisdiction and somebody of that stature or whatever
is found in another jurisdiction, that person could be
fingerprinted and a link can be made.
Mme Bennett: Pilrce que ~e 81H" dOli oaK grAvel. Dilns
de tels cas, nous voulon5 retrouver 10 pCr5onno qui Q
cambriole une maison, qui It voi@, etc, La meU1@ure fa90~
de Ie faire c'est de prendre des empreintes dlgltales; alos\,
si l'accuse quilte la province ou Ie pays en question, 01 est
retrouve ailleurs, les empreintes digitales permettent de
confirmer son identite.
Mr. Nunziata: But would you not agree that the fact
that one is printed and photographed would act as a
deterrent for others? I am sure you will accept that
deterrence is a basis for sentencing in Canada, for
example. It is a reason why people are sent to jail. It is not
always for punishment but to deter others from doing the
same thing, and if johns knew that some 'previous person
was printed and photographed and if that acts as a
deterrent, I do not see what the-
M. Nunziata: Mais ne convenez-vous pas que Ie fait de
prendre une photo et des empreintes digitales constitue
une mesure dissuasive pour les autres? Vous reconnaissez.
sans doute Ie principe de la dissuasion dans Ie systeme
judiciaire au Canada. C'est la raison pour laqueUe il y a
des peines d'emprisonnement. Ce n'est pas toujours une
question de punition mais pour dissuader les autres, et si
on peut decourager les clients par des photos et des
empreintes digitales, je ne vois pas ...
Ms Bennett: Do you mean they would stay home and
watch a hockey game instead of going... ? I do not
understand.
Mme Bennett: Donc, ils resteraient a la maison pour
regarder Ie hockey au lieu d'aller. .. Je ne saisis pas.
Mr. NunzIata: They would not be creating the nuisance
of driving up and down and trying to pick up young
teenagers to get their jollies.
M. Nunziata: lis n'iraient pas perturber la vie du
quartier en draguant de jeunes adolescentes dans les rues
pour prendre leur pied avec eUes.
Ms Runner: But those men will go elsewhere. You are
just going to move all the men indoors, and then there
will be a problem there. You will find everybody else
going indoors where the men go-in bars. That is not
stopping young girls from going into bars either, but it is
just going to move it. Men have been doing this for
thousands of years, just as women have been selling
themselves for thousands of years.
Mme Runner: Mais its iraient ailleurs. Vous allez.
simplement deplacer to us ces hommes qui vont aller dans
les bars. Cela n'empeche pas les jeunes adolescentes
d'aller dans les bars non plus. Les hommes se comportent
de cette fa~on depuis des milliers d'annees, lout comme
les femmes se vendent depuis des milliers d'annees.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Littlechild): Let me thank the
witnesses. Unfortunately, we have run out of time.
Perhaps I could ask, Ms Bennett, if you would care to
provide either draft by-laws or draft amendments to the
Code to the committee pursuant to your earlier
comments.
Le vice-president (M. Littlechild): Je voudrais
remercier les temoins. Malheureusement, nous n'avons
plus de temps. Vous auriez peut-etre des projets d'arretes
municipaux ou des projets d'amendements au Code a
nous proposer, madame Bennett.
Ms Bennett: I do not have anything drawn up.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. LittlechUd): That is what I
meant, if you would like to perhaps provide some to the
commitee.
Ms Bennett: Yes. That would be fine.
Mme Bennett: Je n'ai pas de texte prepare.
Le vice-president (M. Littlechild): Oui, mais vous
voudriez. peut-etre en voyer des propositions au Comite.
Mme Bennett: Oui, tres bien.
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. LiUlechild): Thank you very
much. I would like to call to the witness table now the
Canadian Organization for the Rights of Prostitutes. I
would like to ask Valerie Scott to introduce the other
witnesses. Unfortunately, we let the first group run a bit
overtime. So if you could leave us as much time for
questions as possible, we would appreciate it.
Le vice-president (M. Littlechild): Merci. J'invite
maintenant les representants de la Canadian Organization
for the Rights of Prostitutes a venir prendre leurs places.
Je demanderais a Valerie Scott de presenter les personnes
qui l'accompagnent. Malheureusement, I'autre groupe a
depasse un peu Ie temps qui lui etait alloue. Nous vous
saurions gre de nous laisser Ie maximum de temps
possible pour Ies questions.
Ms
Valerie
Scott
(Spokesperson,
Canadian
Organization for the Rights of Prostitutes): With me today
are Ryan Hotchkeff and Alex Highcreast. I will read our
presentation for you.
Mme
Valerie
Scott
(porte-parole,
Canadian
Organization for the Rights of Prostitutes): Je suis
accompagnee de Ryan Hotchkeff et Alex Highcreast. Je
vais vous lire notre expose.
443
20: 26
Justice and the Solicitor General
7-12-1989
[Translation)
[Text)
• 1020
I'.I
L.
The Canadian Organization for the Rights of
Prostitutes, CORE, is a Toronto-based, prostitute-run
organization, that was founded in 1983 to advocate the
decriminalization of prostitution. We are the only
prostitute-run organization for prostitutes in Canada.
CORE is opposed to Bill C-49. We were opposed to it
before it was passed in 1985, and we continue to opposed
it in 1989 for the same reasons.
La Canadian Organization for lilt! RlglIIs t)/ Prostitutes,
est un organisme situe a Toronto, dlde' par des
prostituees et cree en 1983 pour rccoll1lY\l\nder la
decriminilisation de la prostitution. Nous ~()mm(l~ la seule
organisation au Canada dirigee par des pm.tltuees, a
rintention des prostituees. La CORP s'es! oPP(}36e au
projet de loi C-49 avant son adoption en 198' et contInue
as'y opposer en 1989, pour les memes raisons.
One, we said that Bill C-49 would not stop street
prostitution and it has not. According to the Synthesis
Report on the impact of Bill C-49, which was prepared by
the Department of Justice, street prostitution has not been
appreciably altered in Toronto and Vancouver, the two
cities most affected by street soliciting.
D'abord, nous avions dit que Ie projet de loi C-4Q ne
mettrait pas un terme a la prostitution de rue et cela s'e~t
verifie. Selon Ie rapport de synthese du ministere de la
Justice sur les effets du projet de loi C-49, la prostitution
de rue n'a pas sensiblement change dans les deux villes les
plus touchees par la sollicitation de rue, soit Toronto et
Vancouver.
This should not be surprising. There are countries in
the world with far tougher prostitution laws. In Iran,
prostitutes are regularly stoned to death, a solution, we
fear, that might please some people in Canada. Yet
prostitution persists. Civilized societies, among them
many European countries and Australian states, have
learned that penalizing people for prostitution is not only
ineffective, it is cruel. Instead, these countries are
experimenting with ways of regulating prostitution to
minimize the nuisance that any commercial activity can
generate.
Cela ne devrait surprendre personne. Dans certains
pays, les lois contre la prostitution sont beaucoup plus
severes qu'ici. En Iran, on lapide a mort les prostituees,
solution qui, nous Ie craignons, satisferait certaines
personnes au Canada. Pourtant, la prostitution survit. Les
societes civiIisees, dont celles de beaucoup de pays
d'Europe et d'E-tats en Australie, ont appris que Ie fait
d'infliger une peine pour cause de prostitution est non
seulement inefficace, mais aussi cruel. Ces pays ont choisi
d'essager de ft!glementer la prostitution afin de reduire au
maximum les dommages simples que toute activite
commerciale peut causer.
Two, we said Bill C-49 would adversely affect
prostitutes, and it has. Prostitutes continue to be victims
of a disproportionate amount of violence, harassment,
exploitation, rape and theft, and this will continue to be
the case as long as the law sends the message that'
prostitutes are criminals, bad people who are deserving of
contempt and abuse. Street prostitutes must now also
contend with fines, criminal records and, in many cases,
jail terms, as well as curfews and boundaries that deprive
us of our civil liberties.
Bill C-49 has created a new danger for street
prostitutes. The Prostitute's Safe Sex Project, a Toronto
organization founded by CORE and funded by municipal
and provincial governments, has found prostitutes more
than willing to use condoms and learn about disease
prevention. The numerous complaints from residents of
condoms left behind by prostitutes should attest to this.
However, the Department of Justice Synthesis Report,
page 88, notes prostitutes complain that the number of
clients has been reduced as a result of Bill C-49, and that
less money is available on the street, To add to this, many
prostitutes are now burdened with further expenses in the
form of fines, as well as lost work hours due to arrest and
detention. I quote:
Deuxiemement, nous avibns dit que Ie projet de loi
C-49 aurait une incidence nHaste sur les prostituees, ce
qui s'est verifie. Les prostituees continuent 11 etre victimes,
d'une falron disproportionnee, de violence, de
harcelement, d'exploitation, de viol et de vol, et cette
situation se perpetuera tant que la loi assimilera les
prostituees 11 des criminels. soit des personnes
foncierement mauvaises qui ne meritent que mepris et
mauvais traitements. Les prostituees de rue doivent
main tenant faire face 11 des amendes, 11 des casiers
judiciaires, et dans de nombreux cas, 11 des peines de
prison; nous devons egalement contester les couvre-feu et
des limites qui no us privent de nos libertes civiles.
Le projet de loi C-49 a cree un nouveau danger pour
les prostituees de rue. Le Prostitute's Safe Sex Project,
organisme de Toronto fonde par la CORP et finance par
les paliers municipaux et provinciaux, a decouvert que les
prostituees etaient parfaitement disposees a utiliser des
condoms et a s'informer sur la prevention des maladies.
En temoignent les nombreuses plaintes de residents a
propos de condoms abandonnes par les prostituees. Or,
dans son rapport de synthese, page 88, Ie ministere de la
Justice souligne que les prostituees se plaignent de la
diminution du nombre de clients par suite de radoption
de ce projet de loi et du fait qu'elles gagnent done moins
d'argent. En outre, beaucoup de prostituees ont
maintenant d'autres depenses etant donne qu'elles doivent
payer des amendes et perdre des heures de travail en
raison de leur arrestation et de leur detention. On dit
dans Ie rapport, et je cite:
444
7-12-1989
Justice et Solliciteur general
[TexteJ
Some street prostitutes noted they had become less
choosey and more likely to accept dates that were
questionable, such as customers who were drunk.
20; 27
,31
[Traduction I
Certaines prostituees de rue ont remarqu6 q\l'ollo,
etaient devenues moins difficiles et plus dlspoIIO,. II
accepter des clients douteux comme des personn@i on
etat d'ivresse.
Such a desperate situation not only puts prostitutes in
physical danger, it could make it difficult for some
prostitutes to refuse the demand of a customer to have
sexual intercourse without a condom. If a condom is not
used, there is little chance the customer could be infected
by a prostitute, since female to male transmission of HIV
is very inefficient. It is the prostitute who is in the greatest
danger of being infected.
Non seulement une situation aussi desesperee place les
prostituees dans une situation physiquement dangereuse,
mais il est aussi difficile pour certaines d'entre e\les de
refuser de repondre aux exigences des clients qui veulent
avoir des rapports sexuels sans condom. II y a peu de
chances qu'un client soit infecte par une prostituee lors
de rapports sans condom, etant donne que la transmission
du VIH de femme a homme est beaucoup plus rare. C'est
la prostituee qui court Ie plus grand risque d'infection.
Three, we said that Bill C-49 would be costly to enforce
and that it would it take limited police resources away for
more serious problems, and it has. According to the
Department of Justice report, in Toronto alone, in 1987 it
cost police at least $1,835,680 to enforce Bill C-49.
Actually, the police have recently admitted they are
spending $6.7 million a year in Toronto to control street
prostitution. In 1988 it cost $4.5 million to hire an
additional 90 foot-patrol officers in Toronto. These costs
do not include court and detention costs, nor do they
include the cost to society in terms of lost police attention
to other crimes.
Troisiemement, nous avions dit que la mise en
application du projet de loi C-49 serait couteuse et qu'elle
occuperait Ie temps des forces policieres, deja tres limite,
au detriment de problemes plus graves. Cela s'est verifie.
D'apres Ie rapport du ministere de la Justice, la police a
depense en 1987, dans la seule ville de Toronto, au moins
1,835,680$ pour donner suite aux dispositions du projet
de loi C-49. En 1986, il lui a fallu depenser 4,5 millions
de dollars pour enbaucher 90 agents de patrouille a
Toronto. Ces couts ne comprennent pas les frais de justice
et de detention, ni non plus les couts que representent
pour la societe Ie fait que la police n'a plus Ie temps de
s'occuper des crimes d'autres genres.
Since the Metro Toronto Police have been waging their
anti-prostitution war, the media have been filled with
reports of increased violence and property cri(Iles. The
assumption that increased pOlice visibility on the street to
combat prostitution deters other crimes crumbles when
one considers that police on prostitution duty spend the
majority of their time transporting prostitutes to the
station and doing paperwork. When we look at these
costs, relative to the benefits of enforcing Bill C-49, one
wonders if we can even afford to keep communicating for
the purpose of prostitution illegal.
Depuis que la police du Toronto metropolitain mene
la lutte contre la prostitution, la presse rap porte que Ie
nombre de crimes violents et de crimes contre la
propriete a augmente. La plus grande visibilite de la
police dans les rues pour lutter- contre la prostitution
n'empeche nullement d'autres crimes, contrairement a ce
que I'on avait suppose, etant donne que les agents passent
Ie plus clair de leur temps a amener les prostituees au
poste de police et a remplir les documents pertinents. En
comparant ces couts aux avantages que represente la mise
en application du projet de loi C-49, on est en droit de se
demander si I'on peut mime se permettre de confirmer
qu'il est illegal de communiquer avec une personne dans
Ie but de se livrer ala prostitution .
• 1025
We said, and we maintain, that Bill C-49 is a violation
of human rights. Whether or not the law has had its
intended effect, it is an unjust law. People are receiving
fines, criminal records and, in many cases, even jail terms,
simply for offering to rent or purchase a legal service.
Prostitution, itself, is not a crime. In the Toronto report
on Bill C-49's effectiveness it was noted that in several
hundred hours of observation and interviews in
prostitution areas, members of the prostitution team
infrequently observed disruptive or noisy behaviour on
the part of prostitutes. People are charged whether they
cause a nuisance to others or not.
Nous avons dit, et no us Ie maintenons, que Ie projet de
loi C-49 viole les droits de la personne. Que la loi ait eu
l'effet vise ou non, c'est une loi injuste. Des personnes se
voient infliger des amendes, et, dans de nombreux cas, des
peines de prison, sans compter l'ouverture d'un casier
judiciaire sur leur compte, uniquement parce qu'elles
proposent de louer ou d'acheter un service legal. La
prostitution en elle-mime n'est pas un crime. Dans Ie
rapport de Toronto sur l'efficacite de cette loi, il est note
qu'apres des centaines d'heures d'observation et
d'entrevues dans les secteurs de la prostitution, les
policiers de I'equipe anti-prostitution ont rarement
observe de comportement perturbateur ou bruyant de la
par de prostituees. Or, ces personnes sont accusees,
qu'el\es genent les autres ou non_
445
20: 28
7-12-1989
lustice and the Solicitor General
[Text]
Now the police and ratepayer groups are demanding
tougher penalties for those charged, and the police want
to be able to arrest people simply because they have
reasonable and probable grounds to believe they are
communicating for the purpose of prostitution. Do
people deserve to go to jail for trying to make a legal
living? Do people deserve to go to jail for standing on a
street corner, wearing high heels and a tight skirt? This is
what Bill C-49 is sending people to jail for. Why is it that
such a heavy-handed, punitive and expensive approach is
being taken to deal with what is such a minor problem?
[Translation)
La police et des groupes de contribuables exigent
maintenant des peines plus severes pour les personnes
accuses; la police veut etre en mesure d'arreter des gens
uniquement parce qu'elle a des motifs raisonnables et
probables de croire que ces personnes communiquent
dans Ie but de se livrer a la prostitution. Est-ce qu'on
merite d'aIIer en prison sous pretexte qu'on essaie de
gagner sa vie legalement? Est-ce qu'on me rite d'aIIer en
prison sous pretexte qu'on se Iient a un coin de rue et
qu'on porte des talons hauts et une jupe serree? Ce sont
pour de tels motifs que des gens sont envoyes en prison
aux termes du projet de loi C-49. Pourquoi a+on recours
a des methodes aussi severes, punitives et couteuses pour
regler un probleme aussi mineur?
We certainly do not see police rounding up street
vendors, giving them criminal records and throwing them
in jail. Nor do we see undercover cops pretending to be
street vendors· in order to arrest their customers. Instead,
we regulate street vendors, using municipal by-laws, in
order to minimize the disruption that they, like any
commercial activity, can cause, and of course we will
allow commercial activity to take place off the street in
stores. So why do we not treat prostitution as we would
any other commercial activity? Why do we not allow
prostitutes to solicit on commercial and non-residential
streets and major traffic arteries, in order to keep them
out of the quiet, residential districts?
Nous n 'avons jamais encore vu de policiers encercler
des vendeurs de rue, les jeter en prison ou ouvrir un
casier judiciaire sur leur compte. On ne voit pas non plus
de policiers se faire passer pour des vendeurs de rue dans
Ie but d'arreter leurs clients. Au lieu de cela, des arretes
municipaux permettent de reglementer Ie travail des
vendeurs de rue afin de minimiser la perturbation qu'ils
pourraient causer, comme n'importe quel commen;ant.
Et bien sur, l'activite commerciale est autorisee hors rue,
dans des magasins. Pourquoi la prostitution n'est-eIIe pas
consideree comme n'importe queUe activite commerciale?
Pourquoi les prostituees ne sont-eIIes pas autorisees a
soUiciter dans des rues commerciales et non residentieUes
ainsi que Ie long des grands axes pour qu'elles n'aillent
plus dans des quartiers residentiels?
If prostitutes knew they could work on commercial
Si les prostituees savaient qu'elles pourraient travailler
dans les rues commerciales, il suffirait d'adopter un arrete
municipal interdisant la sollicitation dans les quartiers
residentiels. Pourquoi n'abroge-t-on pas les lois relatives
aux maisons de debauche et au proxenetisme afin que les
prostituees puissent travailler chez elles, dans des bureaux,
dans des maisons de passe, et qu'elles puissent offrir des
services a domicile, plutot que de travailler dans la rue?
Tout Ie monde sait que la fermeture des salons de massage
a la fin des annees 1970 a Toronto s'est traduite par une
forte augmentation de la prostitution dans les rues de
cette ville. Pourquoi ne pas avoir recours aux lois
actuelles contre ceux qui troublent la paix, creent du
desordre ou des perturbations, et pourquoi ne pas avoir
recours aux lois contre les voies de fait, Ie viol,
I'enlevement et la coercition contre ceux qui exploitent
les prostituees?
,
streets, a municipal by-law against any kind of SOliciting
.. in residential areas would be more than a sufficient
deterrent. Why do we not repeal the bawdy-house and
procuring laws so that prostitutes can work out of their
own homes, offices, out-call services, brothels, rather than
. on the street? It is common knowledge that when the City
. of Toronto closed the body-rub parlors in the late 19705,
street prostitution in that city increased greatly. Why do
we not use already existing laws against those who disturb
t.he peace, litter, or otherwise cause disruptions, while
using assaUlt, rape, kidnapping and coercion laws against
those who exploit prostitutes?
Decriminalizing prostitution will take the business out
of the underworld where it is now forced to operate, and
allow prostitutes to. work in a safer, healthier, more
dignified, professional and humane atmosphere. And it
will free up police resources and the taxpayers' money for
. more urgent social problems.
Decriminaliser la prostitution permettrait de retirer
cette activite commercia Ie du monde interlope dans
lequel elle se trouve actuellement et permettrait aux
prostitutees de travailler dans un milieu plus sur, plus
sain, plus digne, plus professionnel et plus humain. Cela
permettrait egalement de liberer des ressources policieres
et d'utiliser I'argent des contribuables pour resoudre des
problemes sociaux plus urgents.
Decriminalization will not satisfY those who wish, for
moral reasons, to stamp out prostitution, and who are
willing to stamp out human rights in order to do it. These
people believe prostitution is an embarrassment to society,
La decriminilisation de la prostitution ne satisfera pas
ceux qui, pour des raisons morales, souhaitent juguler la
prostitution et qui, pour ce faire, sont prets a bafouer les
droits de la personne. Selon eux, la prostitution est une
446
20: 29
(Textel
[ TradUClion'
but we believe it is society's treatment of prostitutes, often
in the name of God and morality, that is the
embarrassment; nor will decriminalization satisfy some
police forces who depend heavily on the money, prestige
and power they get from being seen to control
prostitution. They will continue to argue that they are the
only ones who can solve the problem, despite all the
evidence to the contrary.
honte pour Iii socl616 IIIof5 que nous estimons que c'est la
fa~on dont la societe truita les prostltuees, souvent au nom
de Dieu et de In morllle, qui est une honte. La
decriminalisation ne sIHisferll pas non plus certaines forces
policieres qui dependent fortemen! de l'argent, du prestige
et du pouvoir que leur procure Ie contr61e visible de la
prostitution. Elles continueront 1I afflrmer qu'elles sont
les seules a pouvoir resoudre Ie probleme, bien que tout
prouve Ie contraire.
They said Bill C-49 would allow them to reduce street
sOliciting. Now they say tougher penalties, and the
reasonable and probable grounds clause, will solve the
problem. But they will not. Even prior to 1972, when the
vagrancy laws were still in effect and women could be
jailed just on suspicion of prostitution, police were unable
to stop the sex trade.
Elles avaient dit que Ie projet de loi C-49 leur
permettrait de diminuer la sol licitation de rue. Elles
disent maintenant que des peines plus lourdes ainsi que Ie
recours a la disposition des motifs raisonnables et
probables resoudront Ie probleme. Mais c'est faux. En
effet, me me avant 1972, alors que les lois sur Ie
vagabondage etaient encore en vigueur et que des femmes
pouvaient etre envoyees en prison sur un simple soup~on
de prostitution, la police n'avait pas pu mettre un terme
au commerce du sexe .
• 1030
,"
i
""
Decriminalization will satisfy the ratepayers' groups
who want prostitutes ofrresldenllal streets, and it will
satisfy that majority of Gilhadl@ns who· prefer justice to
moralism. It will end the shameful situation wherein
thousands of Canadians go homeless and Jobless while out
governments spend millions of dollars enforcing a law
that does nothing more than punish people for trying to
make a living.
En decriminalisant la prostitution, les groupes de
contribuables qui ne veulent plus voir de prostituees dans
les rues n!sidentielles seront satisfaits. La majorite des
Canadiens qui prHerent Ia justice au moralisme Ie seront
aussi. On mettra ainsi fin a une situation honteuse ou des
milliers de Canadiens se retrouvent sans foyer et sans
emploi pendant que nos gouvernements consacrent des
millions de dollars a l'application d'une loi qui ne fait
que punir des gens qui essaient de gagner leur vie.
Ms Ryan Hotchkeff (Member, Canadian Organization
for the Rights of Prostitutes): I know the pOlice have
asked that Bill C-49 be stiffened up, that it be made a
hybrid offence, which would mean it could either proceed
as a summary conviction or as an indictable offence. Now,
indictable offences generally hold two- to five-year
penalties, which would be in a federal penitentiary. Are
we really suggesting that people spend two to five years in
a federal pen for answering the question: how much? We
just think that punishment does not fit the crime.
Mme
Ryan
Hotchkeff
(membre,
Canadian
Organization for the Rights of Prostitutes): Je sais que la
police a demande de resserrer un peu les dispositions de
la loi afin de faire de la prostitution une infraction
hybride, c'est-a-dire une infraction, punissable sur
declaration sommaire de culpabilite ou un acte criminel.
Or, les personnes accusees d'actes criminels sont en
general passibles de peines de deux a cinq ans a etre
purgees dans un penitencier federal. Voulons-nous
vraiment que ces personnes passent deux a cinq ans dans
un penitencier tout simplem~nt pour avoir repondu a la
question suivante: Combien? A notre avis, Ie chatiment ne
convient pas au crime.
Also, if you make it an indictable offence, that puts the
prostitute charged in a reverse onus situation with regard
to bail in two circumstances. The first is if she is charged
a second time with communicating while awaiting trial on
the first charge. The second situation would be if she has a
failure to appear on any other charge and then is charged
with communicating if it were to proceed indictable. That
means she could have a littering ticket that she does not
turn up for, then get hit with a communicating ticket, and
then be in a reverse onus situation when she applies for
bail, which means she has to prove why she should be let
out before her trial rather than the other way around, as
it is with summary convictions. The Crown has to show
why the woman should be kept in.
En outre, s'il s'agit d'un acte criminel la prostituee
inculpee doit dans des cas de demande de liberation sous
cautionnement assumer Ie fardeau de la preuve dans deux
situations: En effet, si elle est accusee une deuxieme fois
d'avoir «communique» en attendant son proces pour une
premiere accusation, ou si elle ne s'est pas presentee
devant Ie tribunal suite a une autre accusation et qu'on
l'arrete pour communication, si la communication
devenait un acte criminel. Ainsi elle pourrait avoir une
contravention pour avoir jete des papiers par terre, et
pour laquelle eUe ne s'est pas presentee, et si ensuite elle
est accusee de communication, dans sa demande de
cautionnement, Ie fardeau de Ia preuve sera Ie sien,
c'est-a-dire qu'il lui faudra demontrer pourquoi on
devrait la liberer avant son proces, contrairement a ce qui
447
20: 30
7-12-1989
Justice and the Solicitor General
[Text)
[Translation)
est prevu dans Ie cas des infractions punissables sur
declaration sommaire de culpabilite. C'est la Couronne
de demontrer pourquoi on ne devrait pas liberer cette
femme.
a
That is a really heavy-handed approach. We do not
think that fits the offence of answering: how much? It is
not an offence to be a prostitute; it is not an offence to
stand on the street in a short skirt. When they tried to
make it an offence for women to be on the street without
a good explanation. with Vag C, that law fell. That was
even before we had the Charter of Rights. So I do not see
why the police think that would hold up now that we do
have the Charter.
C'est une approche vraiment extreme. Nous ne
pensons pas que c'est du tout dans la me me veine que la
reponse a la question: com bien? Et ce n'est pas une
infraction que d'etre une prostituee; ce n'est pas une
infraction que de se tenir au coin de la rue en jupe
courte. Lorsqu'on a essaye d'interdire aux femmes, sans
bonne explication, d'etre dans la rue, en invoquant les
dispositions en matiere de vagabondage, la loi n'a pas
survecu. C'etait avant me me l'avenement de la Charte des
droits. Je ne vois pas comment la police pense que cela
tiendrait maintenant alOTs que nous avons la Charte.
Mr. Nunziata: As I indicated previously, there is a
problem in a couple of major cities in Canada, and as
federal legislators we have been called upon to use our
powers-i.e., the Criminal Code-:-to try to deal with a
nuisance problem. I would like to first understand from
you whether you accept the fact that there is a problem.
M. Nunziata: Comme je rai dit precedemment, dans
plusieurs grandes vilIes du Canada, il existe des problemes
et on a fait appel a nous, les legislateurs federaux, pour
qu'on utilise nos pouvoirs, c'est-a-dire Ie Code criminel,
pour nous attaquer un probleme de nuisance. 1'aimerais
d'abord que vous nous disiez si vous reconnaissez qu'il y a
un probleme.
Ms Hotchkeff: I think the problem of nuisance has
been greatly exaggerated. I think, yes, you do have a
nuisance problem with any sort of commercial activity. In
Toronto hot dog carts have sprung up all over the city
like mushrooms. They are blocking pedestrian traffic,
they are crowding the. streets, there is a health problem
with some of the carts, and yet we are not throwing hot
dog vendors in jail. What we are doing is using the
existing by-laws to deal with that situation.
Mme Hotchkeff: Je pense que ron a beaucoup exagere
ce probleme de nuisance. Ie pense que dans tout genre
d'activite commerciale, II y a toujours des inconvenients.
A Toronto, on a V\l. prolif6rer comme des champignons
les stands de vente de hot-dogs. lis genent la circulation
des pietons, la cii'c\llatlon dans les rues; dans Ie cas de
certains de ces stands, \1'1 a des problemes d'hygiene.
Pourtant, on n'envole pas les vendeurs de hot-dogs en
prison. On a eu recours aux arr~tes munlcipaux pour
tenter de contr61er 1a situation.
I do not think the Criminal Code is an appropriate way
to deal with nuisance. Prostitutes create noise just as other
people create noise. Prostitutes litter as other people litter.
We think we should be subjected to the same laws as
anyone else is. We do not think there need to be special
nuisance laws for prostitutes.
Je ne pense pasqu'iI convienne d'utiliser Ie Code
criminel dans ce cas-ci. Les prostituees font du bruit
comme Ie reste de la population. Les prostituees jettent
des choses par terre tout comme les autres citoyens. Nous
pensons devoir etre assujettis aux memes lois que les
autres. Nous ne pensons pas qu'i1 faille avoir de loi
particulieres visant la nuisance qu'on impute aux
prostituees.
Mr. Nunziata: Yes, but with respect, you say that
people are exaggerating. We have heard from witnesses
from the different cities, and if you are suggesting that the
nuisance problem associated with street solicitation is
similar to that associated with hot dog vendors in
Toronto, I think you are exaggerating as well.
M. Nunziata: Oui, mais vous dites que les gens
exagerent. Nous avons entendu des temoins de differentes
villes, et si vous voulez dire que Ie probleme de nuisance
associe a la sollicitation est semblable a celui cree par les
vendeurs de hot-dogs a Toronto, je pense que c'est vous
qui exagerez.
Ms HotchketT: I would say the difference is that we do
not have a moral problem with people selling meat on the
street in the form of hot dogs, whereas we do have a
problem with people selling sex on the street.
Mme Hotchkeff: Je dirais qu'il existe une difference
tout simplement paree que cela ne no us cause aucun
dilemne moral de voir des gens vendre de la viande dans
la rue sous forme de hot-dogs, alors que cela nous ennuie
de voir des gens vendre Ie sexe dans la rue.
Mr. Nunziata: I do not think, in the minds of the
majority of people, we are concerned about the sale of
sex.
M. Nunziatat Je ne pense pas que la majorite des gens
se preoccupent de cet aspect du commerce du sexe.
Ms HotchketT: I think that is what you are concerned
about. You see, I live on the-
Mme HotchkefT: Je pense que c'est ce qui vous
preoccupe. Vous voyez, je vis de ...
a
448
Justice et Solliciteur general
7-12-1989
- In
20: 31
[TeXle J
[Traduction]
Mr. Nunziata: Let me finish, and maybe you can then
conclude what we are thinking.
M. Nunziata: Laissez-moi terminer et ensuite vous
pourrez peut-etre nous dire ce que nous pensons.
In the minds of a number of us, we are simply
concerned about the nuisance aspect. We recognize that
prostitution is legal. Certain aspects of prostitution-living
off the avails, keeping a common bawdy-house, etc.-are
illegal, and rightly so in some circumstances. We are
trying to come to grips with the nuisance problem. I am
sorry that you have not recognized there is a problem .
Pour plusieurs d'entre nous, c'est I'aspect nuisance qui
nous preoccupe. Nous reconnaissons que la prostitution
est legale. Certains aspects de la prostitution-vivre du
produit de la prostitution, tenir une maison de passe, etc.,
ces aspects sont ilIegaux, et a juste titre dans certains cas.
Nous essayons de cerner Ie probleme de nuisance et je
regrette que vous n'admettez pas qu'il y a un probleme.
• 1035
Ms Hotchkeff: I am not saying that I do not recognize
there is a problem. I am saying that we have existing laws
to deal with nuisance problems.
Mr. Nunziata: Yes, but they are not working.
Mme Hotchkeff: Je ne pretends pas que ce probleme
n'existe pas. Je dis simplement qu'il y a deja des lois qui
portent sur cette question.
M. Nunziata: Oui, rna is ces lois ne donnent rien.
Ms Hotchkeff: We have noise laws. It depends on what
you mean by "working". I would say to you that most of
the residents group will never be satisfied, even if all the
prostitutes on the street· were mute and did not make any
noise and even if customers were walking around, rather
driving. What they are really concerned about is they
it offensive to see women standing on the street in
Mme Hotchkeff: II y a des lois sur Ie bruit.. Tout
depend de ce que vous entendez par «donner». Je peux
vous dire qu'a mon avis, la plupart des groupes de
residents ne seraient jamais satisfaits me me si toutes les
prostituees devenaient muettes et ne faisaient pas un bruit
et me me 5i la clientele se promenait a pied plutot qu'en
voiture. Ce qui les preoccupe pour la plupart, c'est de
voir des femmes au coin de la rue en jupe courte.
M. Nunziata: Les prostituees elles-memes ne trouventelles pas qu'il est degradant de faire cela?
This is exactly what we are talking
you ask if they find it degrading, obviously
moral problem here. We do not find our work
What we find degrading are the laws we are
to because we consider our work to be work.
'We do not consider it to be a criminal offence.
:A':;~:";'.·iMr.
Nunziata: If you are a mature women, that is one
'.;d'f\:lnS.· What I find totally, absolutely and. unequivocally
;.'!"i~nact)eptable
;;'8;~b!lr.
and horrific is the 12- and 13-year-olds out
who are plying the trade. I think we have a a clear
';,r.~_p,o.p~\J?iUty
I()
deal with that situation. It is one thing
for.lli'!: . ad\tlt women to want to do what she wants to do as
far ."'~r~8tiHilion
is
concerned,
but
we
have
a
respUHyt6>d
••
who fall prey to
it.
. ' , ' (.'"'.' .
-.",,. with
'. yO\lrig
.people
,
:~.,":
,
We have to ~un~c:r~IJa,".«:ll
are doing It ..
degenerates in , .
children to make
trade in that respect.
Do you not believe
what we can either oy W(\Y·:()f.:lrtu~rOiv~I\It8(.)(iII.U
or what not or stiffening t
with
that aspect of your occupation
Mme Hotchkeff: Voila justement ce que nous disons.
Lorsque vous demandez si c'est degradant, manifestement,
cela sous-entend un dilemme moral. Nous ne trouvons
pas notre travail degradant. Nous trouvons degradantes les
lois auxquelles nous sommes asujetties; pour nous, notre
travail, c'est un emploi. Nous ne pensons pas que c'est
une infraction criminelle.
M. Nunziata: Si vous etes une femme mure, voila une
chose. Mais je trouve tout a fait inacceptable et horrible
de voir des petites de 12 et de 13 ans qui font Ie trottoir.
Je pense que nous avons c1airement la responsabilite de
faire quelque chose dans un tel cas. C'est une chose pour
une femme d'age adulte de faire ce qu'elle veut, mais
nous avons la responsabilite d'aider les jeunes qui
tombent dans ce panneau.
II nous faut comprendre les jeunes s'y adonnent. II faut
nous acharner contre les degeneres, c'est-a-dire les
. proxenetes qui ont recours a des enfants mineurs pour se
falre de I'argent.
.'
to!io
programs
r~spectto
Ms Scott: I do not think jalling adult prostitutes is
going to solve the juvenile prostltution Issue. I think it is a
totally different issue. Putting me in jail is not going to
help the 12-year-old on the street at all. When you put
this law into place, you are going to jail thousands of
Ne pensez-vous pas que nous ayons la responsabilite de
falre ee que no us pouvons en ameliorant, par exemple, les
programmes sociaux ou en prevoyant des sanctions plus
lourdes I'egard de cet aspect de votre occupation?
a
Mme Scott: Ie ne pense pas que I'incarceration des
prostituees adultes va aider a resoudre Ie probleme des
adolescentes. C'est une question tout a fait differente. Ce
n'est pas en m'envoyant en prison que vous allez aider Ie
moindrement une jeune de 12 ans. Lorsque vous aurez
449
Justice and the Solicitor General
IText I
7-12-1989
adult prostitutes and you are not going to help that
juvenile prostitute out there one bit.
[Translation J
ado pte cette loi, vous pourrez incarcerer des milliers de
prostituees adultes, mais cela ne fera absolument rien
pour aider les adolescentes.
Mr. Nunziata: Let us be realistic. You have been
around for a while, Ms Scott. You know that even with
the present law ... tell me the number of times that the
maximum penalty has been handed down. We know how
the courts in Toronto and elsewhere deal with these
charges. The intent is clearly not-and we know the result
will not be-to throw women in jail.
M. Nunziata: Soyons realistes. Vous avez vecu un peu,
madame Scott. Vous savez, meme avec la loi actuelle ...
dites-moi combien de fois la peine maximale a ete
imposee. Nous savons ce que font les tribunaux a Toronto
et ailleurs dans Ie cas d'accusations de ce genre.
Manifestement, ce n'est pas leur intention--et nous savons
qu'on ne jette pas les femmes en prison.
Ms Scott: You are wrong, I must say, with al\ due
respect.
Mme Scott: Vous avez tort, je do is dire que je regrette
de vous Ie dire.
Mr. Nunziata: Then tell me the last time the maximum
penalty-
M. Nunziata: Dites-moi quand pour la derniere fois, la
peine maximale-
Ms HotchketT: We know dozens of women who spent
months in jail on communicating charges.
Mme HotchketT: Nous connaissons des douzaines de
femmes qui ont passe des mois en prison suite a une
accusation pour communication.
Mr. Nunziata: Yes, and what is their background?
M. NunZIata: Qui, mais quels etaient leurs antecedents?
Ms Scott: Lots of dead time and then two- to threemonth sentences. They are giving 30-day sentences now
for a first offence.
Mr. Nunziata: No one has been given a two-year
sentence.
Ms Scott: The maximum is six months.
Mme Scott: Beaucoup de peines remises et une
sentence de deux· a troIS mois. Maintenant, pour une
premiere infraction, on impose une peine de trente jours.
M. Nunziata: Personne n'a
ete condamne a deux ans.
Mme Scott: La peine maxima Ie est de six mois.
Mr. Nunziata: Six months rather. Has anybody been
given six months?
M. Nunziata: Excusez-moi, oui, six mois. At-on
impose une peine de six mois?
Ms Scott: I do not know, but three months is now
normal.
Mme Scott: Je n'en sais rien, mais trois mois, c'est tout
a fait normal.
Mr. Nunziata: Even if we were to stiffen the penalty or
make it a hybrid offence, it does not follow automatically
that the courts will start throwing increased numbers of
people in jail. Let me tell you one of the reasons why I
lean towards making it a hybrid offence or simply
requiring the identification of johns. I like the idea of
deterring the johns from going up and down the streets.
M. Nunzia~: Meme si no us augmentons la peine ou
me me si nous transformons la nature de I'infraction, cela
ne signifie pas necessairement que les tribunaux vont
commencer a incarcerer un plus grand nombre d'accuses.
Laissez-moi vous dire pourquoi je suis en faveur de
transformer cette infraction en infraction hybride ou
encore d'exiger que les clients soient identifies. J'aime
I'idee de decourager les clients, de les empecher de se
promener.
I also like the idea that underage prostitutes will be
identified. We have heard evidence to the effect that if we
identified the young people, we might be able to help
them and their families.
J'aime aussi I'idee qu'il leur faudra identifier les
prostituees mineures. On no us dit que si no us identifions
les jeunes peut-etre pourrons-nous obtenir de I'aide pour
elles et leurs familIes.
Ms Scott: The thing is the young people are already
identified. This whole thing the police have been telling
you about our being so great at malipulating them and
getting away with using false identification and all of that
is not true at all. Most of the women in Toronto are
already photo identified. The police just come up to you
and take your picture. It is very common to be out there
at night and get identified four times. That is common in
an eight-hour period.
Mme Scott: Les jeunes sont deja identifiees. Ce que Ia
police vous dit, c'est-a-dire que nous reussissons si bien a
les manipuler, que nous echappons a la loi en utilisant de
fausses pieces d'identite, ce n'est pas vrai du tout. La
plupart des femmes de Toronto ont deja leur photos au
poste. La police se presente et prend votre photo. II arrive
tres souvent que pendant la nuit, on vous identifie quatre .
fois. Quatre fois pendant une periode de huit heures.
• 1040
Ms Hotchkeff: We work for the Toronto Prostitute's
Safe Sex Project, so we are out on the street every night.
Mme Hotchkeff: Nous avons travaille pour Ie
Prostitute's Safe Sex Project et donc nous sommes dans
450
7-12-1989
ITexlel
We stand with the women, we are talking to them, giving
them condoms. We watch the police car$ come up. They
stop everyone. They ask to see their Identification. I mean,
they know who the women arc. The problem with
identification is not as great o~ you have been led to
believe.
Mr. Nunziata: What (10 you do with the young people,
may I ask? If you ~1'I()W Ihot there is an underage
prostitute working the stroot •• what would you people do
about it?
Ms Hotchkef'f: Well, It Uepends. You see the thing is I
have never met 11 11. or l3·year-old working the streetMs ScottI Neither have I.
Ms Hf?~C~k.m -ond I have spoken to hundreds of
prolltltutc~ In Tot()nto. [ mean, there are a few 15- and
16'YC8N,HIllOUI there. Some of those people clearly do
havllpi'l',~hn"lIwith their personal lives. Others of them
arll'lR9i'i111illonals, you know, and they have seemed to
~~~tftJj)tW. II choice. I mean, the age at whichc;;~~t,':'Nuilziata: Professionals at I5?
",:,iri:';'Hotchkeff: -you make that choice varies. I know
:~.f~ecause you find prostitution offensiveMr. Nunziata: I do not.
Ms Hotchkeff: Well, with the words you are using, by
calling people who involve other people in the
prostitution industryMs Scott: Degenerates.
Ms Hotchkeff: --degenerates.
Mr. Nunziata: Pimps are degenerates.
Ms Hotchkeff: I will tell you, sir, a pimp is someone
who lives on the avails of prostitution. Well, that could be
my boyfriend, my husband, my childMr. Nunziata: I am talking about the ones who go out
and attract underage children,
Ms Hotchkeff: Yes, but that is not what the Criminal
Code calls a pimp. A pimp is somebody who simply lives
on the avails, which means that the majority of people
charged with pimping are the boyfriends of prostitutes.
You will see one guy charged with pimping one girl, and
that is what it is.
Mr. Robinson: I think we have to recognize tha,Lthis
area of the criminal law, probably more than ~any other; is
laden with hypocrisy. Of course the origin of the la""s.;o~
living off the avails was the notion that any man who
would actually associate in any way whatsocverwith:a
prostitute was beneath contempt, and the prostitutes were
sub-human creatures who effectively should not have any
decent upstanding man having anything to do with them.
That is the origin of the living off the avails sections of the
Criminal Code. Let us be realistic about that.
.....
20: 33
Justice et Solliciteur general
[Traduaion I
rue tous les soirs. Nous sommes avec les femmes, nous
leur par Ions, nous leur donnons des condoms. Nous
voyons venir les voitures de police. Les policiers arretent
tout Ie monde. I1s demandent a voir des pieces d'identite.
lis savent donc qui sont ces femmes. Le probleme de
I'identification n'est pas aussi grave que ce que I'on a
essaye de vous faire croire.
M. Nunziata: Puis-je vous demander ce que vous feriez
des jeunes? Si vous savel. qu'une prostituee est mineure,
que recommandez.-vous?
Mme Hotchkeff: Tout depend. Voyez.-vous, je n'ai
jamais rencontre d'adolescente de 12 ou de 13 ans qui
fasse Ie trottoir. ..
Mme Scott: Moi non plus.
Mme Uotchkeff: ... et j'ai parle a des centaines de
prostituees a Toronto. II y a quelques adolescentes de Ip
ans. Manifestement, dans certains cas, il apparalt
c1airement que ces personnes ont des problemes
personnels. O'autres sont des professionnelles qui
sembleraient avoir choisi. Apres tout, I'age oU ...
M. Nunziata: Des professionnelles 11 I'age de 15 ans?
Mme Hotchkeff: ... on fait ce choix varie. Je sais que
parce que la prostitution vous revolte ...
M. Nunziata: Pas du tout.
Mme Hotchkeff: En qualifiant ceux qui entrainent
d'autres dans l'industrie de la prostitution de ...
I
Mme Scott: Degeneres.
Mme Hotchkeff:· ... degeneres.
M. Nunziata: Les maquereaux sont des degeneres.
Mme Hotchkeff: Je vous dis, monsieur, qu'un
maquereau est quelqu'un qui vit du produit de la
prostitution. II pourrait s'agir de mon amant, de mon
mari, de mon enfant. ..
M. Nunziata: Je parle de ceux qui veulent aUirer des
enfants mineurs.
Mme Hotchkeff: Qui, mais ce n'est pas la definition
qu'en donne Ie Code criminel. Selon Ie Code criminel, un
maquereau est quelqu'un qui vit de la prostitution, ce qui
signifie que 1a majorite des ihculpes sont les amis de
prostituees. En general, un type est accuse de vivre de la
prostitution d'une seule fille,un point c'est tout.
M. Robinson: Je pense qu'it faut reconnaitre que cet
aspect du droit crhnlne1 est, probablement plus que tout
autre entoure d'hypocrisie: Evidemment, a I'origine, soustendait les lois interdisant de vivre de la prostitution la
notion que tout homme qui s'associait de quelque fa~on
que Ce soit avec une prostituee ne meritait meme pas Ie
mepris et que les prostituees etaient des creatures moins
qu'humaines dont ne devait pas se preoccuper un hom me
Ie moindrement decent. Et c'est de Iii que viennent les
dispositions du Code criminel sur Ie produit de la
prostitution. Maintenant, soyons realistes .
451
20: 34
Justice and the Solicitor General
7-12-1989
[Text]
I want to take this opportunity to thank the witnesses
for appearing before the committee. This is, I think, the
second or third time they have appeared before the House
of Commons. I remember vividly the first appearance of
the group when they appeared behind veils. I do not
know if other members of the committee remember, but I
think that is some indication of the progress that has been
made. In fact it was in this very room that the witnesses
appeared behind veils, and so I want to really thank them
for the courage that they have shown in speaking out on
this question.
[Translation I
Je saisis I'occasion de remercier les temoins d'etre
venues compara;tre devant Ie Comite. Ie pense que c'est
la deuxieme ou troisieme fois que vous comparaissez
devant un comite de la Chambre des communes. Ie me
souviens tres clairement de la premiere comparution de
ce groupe; vous etiez venues voilees. Je ne sa is pas si les
autres membres du comite s'en souviennent, mais je pense
qu'on nous dit aujourd'hui que certains progres ont ete
realises. En fait. c'est dans cette meme salle que les
temoins etnicnt venues voilees et je tiens donc ales
remercier sincerement du courage dont el1es font preuve
en parlant publiquement de cette question.
I want to say also that in suggesting that the problem of
nuisance is greatly exaggerated, with respect, it is not
greatly exaggerated in some areas. We heard evide'nce
from residents of the Mount Pleasant area of Vancouver,
and it is an intolerable situation. I think anyone would
recognize that it is an intolerable and hellish situation in
which to live. While it may be exaggerated in some areas,
I just want you to understand that we do have a problem
with which we have to deal.
Par ail leurs. je ne pense pas que Ie probleme de
nuisance ait etc exagere dans certaines regions, comme on
l'a laisse entendre. Les habitants du quartier de Mount
Pleasant a Vancouver sont venus temoigner d'une
situation intol6rable. Ie pense que tous admettront qu'il
s'agit d'une situation intolerable et impossible a vivre. II y
a peut-etre eXlIg'rntion dans certains cas, mais je pense
que vous comprcndrez qu'i! y a un probleme et qu'i! nous
faut trouver une ~oluti()n,
is
happen
to
believe that
the answer
decriminalization. I have taken that position from the
beginning, I have gotten some flack for it over the years,
but I believe more than ever that it is the answer. I think
this absurd approach of toughening the criminal law and
throwing more prostitutes in jail, because it is not the
customers who go to jail, it is the prostitutes who go to
jail, and getting more people into the web of the criminal
justice system by fingerprinting everybody and
photographing everybody, is madness. It is absolute
madness-this hyprocrisy of suggesting that, you know, by
fingerprinting and photographing young people on the
streets we are dealing with problem. Let us start putting a
network of social services in place. Let us start putting
funds into dealing with sexual abuse of young children.
Look at the number of kids on the street who have been
sexually and physically abused, and then the hypocrisy of
labelling them as criminals ...
A mon avis, In solution consisterait a decriminaliser.
ce qui m'a attire des
rai toujours pr6c(lnl~6 cett~
critiques au fil (ICK ani.,
suis de plus en plus
persuade que C'ts! 10 III '.
'pensequ'il est absurde
d'adopter une approc
'un resserrement des
dispositions de In In\'
d'un plus
Ip. .. rr~,.,,, t
pas les
grand nombre de
clients mais bien les
fou
de vouloir augmenter
pris dans Ie filet <lu
empreintes digitales ct cn
C'est de la folie fur'
pretendre qu'en prcnant
photographiant les jeu
us
attaquons au probleme.
.en place
un reseau de services
UII!!!l"~ln~" par trouver
ui font l'objet
des budgets pour aider
de la rue qui
d'abus sexuel. Regardez
nt et ensuite
ont ete abuses sexu
ayez l'hypocrisie de les q
I would like to ask Ms Scott if she could just give us
some background in terms Of escort service versus streets.
This is something a number of people have looked at.
What is it in fact? Is there a difference in the nature of
clients, of johns? Why would people go to an escort
service as opposed to driving do~n and picking up
somebody on the street? I do not know if you have
worked the streets; you have. certainly run an escort
service. Is there a difference in the kind of people? Does
the person down on the street just want a quick blow job?
I mean, is it cheaper? Why do people in fact go to escort
services, as opposed to picking up prostitutes on the
street?
.
1'aimerais demander AM(lIt! ,Scott si elle peut nous
donner un peu I'hlstorlq~el;ies services d'escorte par
opposition a la prostitution de rue. Rares sont ceux qui
ont examine cet aspect. De quoi s'agit-il au juste? Y a-t-il
une difference dans la nature des clients? Pourquoi
s'adresse-t-on a une agence d'escorte au lieu de sauter
dans sa voiture el d'aller ramasser quelqu'un au coin de la
rue? Je ne sais pas 5i vous avez fait la rue; mais vous avez
certainement dirige une agence d'escorte. La clientele
differe-t-elle? Est-ce que dans la rue on veut simplement
une pipe rapide? Est-ce moins cher? Potirquoi les gens
s'adressent-ils II un service d'escorte plutot que de
ramasser une fille dans la rue?
no
• 1045
Ms Scott: I, have worked the street, and I have worked
massage parlours. I have worked brothels in Canada, the
Mme Scott: J'ai fait la rue, et j'ai fait les salons de
massage. rai travaille dans des maisons de passe au
f)
452
Justice et SOlllclteuf
20: 35
ral
rTraduction I
States, and Australia. [ now own a small escort
service in Toronto.
Canada, awe Etats-Unis et en Australie. Je suis maintenant
proprietaire d'un petit service d'escorte II Toronto.
[ think the reason people come to escort services is that
they can afford it. A lot of people write it off on their
business expense account. An awful lot of American
Express goes through escort services. But you will see
many of the customers on the street are immigrants,
because they cannot afford that kind of money yet.
Je pense que si I'on s'adresser II un service d'escorte,
c'est parce qu'on en ales moyens. Beaucoup de gens
peuvent faire passer cette depense sur leur compte
d'affaires. Dans bien des cas, c'est paye avec la carte de
l'American Express. Dans la rue, de nombreux clients
sont des immigrants, ils n'ont pas les moyens de s'adresser
11 un service d'escorte.
M. Nunziata: C'est absurde.
Mr. Nunziata: That is nonsense.
Ms Scott: It is the truth. Go out there and see for
yourself. Most of the customers of street prostitutes are
immigrants. They just do nut have the mQney. They can
spend $50 or $60, but they cannot spend $200. They do
not have it yet.
Mr. Robinson: So what does it cost for an escort?
Mme Scott: C'est la verite. Allez-y voir vous-meme. La
plupart des clients de prostituees dans la rue sont des
immigrants. IIs n'ont pas les moyens d'aller ailleurs. lis
ont peut-etre 50$ ou 60$, mais its n'ont pas 200$. Pas
encore.
M. Robinson: Ou'en coute-t-il si on s'adresser it un
service d'escorte?
Ms Scott: It varies between $150... $250 to $300 is
pretty well the average.
Mme Scott: Cela varie entre 150$, ... entre 250$ et
300$, en moyenne.
Mr. Robinson: What is the going rate on the street
these days?
M. Robinson: Et qu'en coute-t-il ces jours-ci dans la
rue?
Ms Scott: The going rate on the street would be really
anywhere from $40 to $100.
Mr. Robinson: So you are saying it is economic
Mme Scott: Dans la rue, cela va de 40$ II 100$.
M. Robinson: Donc, vous dites que c'est une question
de sous.
Avec quel genre de clients faites~vous affaire dans un
service
d'escorle?
Ouelle
est
la
difference
comparativement 11 votre clientele dans la rue? Est-ce que
.'W;Or;/II'n!),eS(IQ.r.t.;.' . to utes les couches de la societe sont representees dans la
. '... cllehtefe d'un service d'escorte'?
/~ "
M. Seott"
jobs,'buttH~.· .
are pretty well, \lU'·""'IICI~
who see the women on the
.11 y en. a .4e tous les ages, de toutes les
Dtt.fOlrsh~,'i'f'·'
'.·IJ;'fiit:l"lrltfl
qrtais'en
g6neral; 'Ia clientele d'un service
oskfssot· bien ·nan'tie. US'cols bleus ont plutot
tentlanee A5'adresser aux femmes dans la rue.
Mr. Robinson: Not necessarily just immigrants, but
are saying working class and poorer level.
M.
RoblnsOni 1\ ne s'agit pas uniquement
d'immigrants, pui~que vous dites les cols bleus et les
pauvres.
Ms Scott: Yes. Also, the girl on the street is charging by
the act, not by the amount of time. The escort is by time,
whereas the girl on the street is by act. So it can be $60,
but it is only going to be 10 minutes.
Mme Scott: Oui. En plus, la fille qui fait Ie trottoir ne
se fait pas payer II I'heure, mais aux gestes. Alors que Ie
service d'escorte facture it I'heure. Donc, dans la rue c'es!
peut-etre 60$, mais vous en aurez pour 10 minutes.
Mr. Robinson: But of course under the current
provisions of the Criminal Code if you as a prostitute
bring a john back to your apartment more than once or
twice, your apartment becomes a bawdy-house.
M. Robinson: D'ailleurs, en vertu des dispositions
actuelles du Code criminel, si une fille ramene un client a
son appartement. plus d'une fois ou deux, l'appartement
devient une maison de passe.
Ms Scott: More than once. Yes, it then becomes a
bawdy-house. Legally the safest place to work is the street,
even with the communicating law. And I really think
Parliament should loosen up the bawdy-house laws. You
have to understand prostitution is-we will say it againhere to stay, and you have to allow us some place to work.
Mme Scott: Plus d'une fois, oui, et c'est une maison de
passe. Sur Ie plan juridique, il est moins risque de
travailler dans la rue, meme avec cette disposition sur la
communication. En realite, je pense que Ie Parlement
devrait relacher les dispositions visant les maisons de
passe. Vous devez comprendre que la prostitution-et
nous Ie repetons-est inderacinable et qu'il faut nous
donner un endroit ou travailler.
453
20: 36
Justice and the Solicitor General
7-12-1989
[Text)
Why do you not do wha~ the Fraser commISSIOn
suggested and allow women to work out of their own
homes and advertise? That is what standing in the street
is, advertising. We could advertise cheaply in the personal
sections of the newspapers in the cities. It would be so
much easier. Your telephone starts ringing at 7 a.m. in
the morning and everybody is happy. As it stands now,
the newspapers will not let us advertise.
[Translationl
Pourquoi ne pas suivre la suggestion de la commission
Fraser et permettre aux femmes de travailler chez elles et
d'en faire la publicite? Faire Ie trottoir, c'est faire de la
publicite. Nous pourrions faire passer des petites
annonces dans les journaux, de la ville, pour pas cher. Ce
serait tellement plus facile. Le telephone commencerait 11
sonner a 7 heures du matin, et tout Ie monde y trouverait
son compte. A l'heure actuelle, les journaux refusent de
faire notre publicite.
Mr. Robinson: [ think this is one of the great
contradictions in this whole area. On the one hand
prostitution is theoretically legal, but on the other hand if
you want to engage in the act of prostitution off the street,
effectively, as a witness said to us a couple of days ,ago,
you have to change apartments almost every month. So I
for one hope this committee will address the reality of this
area.
M. Robinson: C'est justement l'une des grandes
contradictions dans ce domaine. D'une part, en theorie, la
prostitution est h~gale, mais d'autre part, si vous faitcs de
la prostitution ailleurs que dans la rue, 11 toutes fins utiles.
comme no us Ie signalait un temoin il y a quelques jours,
il faut demenager presque tous les mois. rose esperer
pour ma part que Ie Comite va se pencher sur la reallie
de cetle situation.
Of course we are looking at the whole question of bylaws, and we talked about nuisance by-laws. I am not
convinced that a carefully worded by-law dealing with the
in
residential
nuisance
aspects of prostitution
communities would not survive court challenge. I think
there is at least a reasonable possibility it would. There
was never been any serious attempt to do that. The
western by-law, in Calgary, was worded far too broadly. I
am not at all convinced municipalities do not have the
power to regulate that kind of activity, just as they
regulate other commercial activity in their community.
Certainly that is something we will have to look at.
Evidemment, no us examinons toute la question des
arretes, et nous avons discute des arretes sur les dommages
simples. Je ne suis pas persuade qu'un arrete sur les
dommages simples, s'il etait bien formule et qu'i!
interdisait la prostitution dans les quartiers residentiels
soit con teste avec succes. Je pense qu'on peut
raisonnablement supposer que la contestation n'aurait pas
gain de cause. II n'y a jamais eu de tentatives serieuses
dans ce sens. L'arrete de Calgary etait libelle d'une facron
beaucoup Irop generale. Je ne suis pas du tout persuade
que les municipalites ne possedent pas Ie pouvoir de
reglementer cc gen~Cl d'activites, tout comme les autres
activites commerCiaies .. II ;!,/lous faudrait certainement
examiner cet aspect.
As a society of course we have to look at the whole
nature of sexuality. How many male prostitutes are there
out on the street responding to female customers?
Comme societe, i1 nous faut·eXllminer toute la nature
de la sexualite. Combien de proslitues males y a-t-i1. dans
la rue, pour la clientele feminine?
Ms Scott: That is growing. That industry is growing by
about 50% a year. But it is still very, very small.
Mme Scott: Leur nombre:augmente. La croissance dans
ce secteur est d'environSO'p,;tOO par annee. Mais c'est
.
encore tres modeste.
You might want to speak to that, Alex.
Vous voudrez peut-etrerepondre, Alex.
Mr. Robinson: Are you a prostitute yourself?
M. Robinson: Etes-vous, vous-meme, prbstitue?
Mr. Alex Highcreast (Member, Canadian Organization
for the Rights of Prostitutes): Yes, I am.
M. Alex Highcreast (membre, Canadian Organization
for the Rights ofProstJtutes): Oui.
Mr. Robinson: Do you have that kind of clientele, or
are you a homosexual prostitute?
M. Robinson: Avez-vous des clientes ou etes-vous un
prostitue homosexuel?
• 1050
Mr. Highcreast: The majority of my clients are indeed
male, but as Valerie said, the female aspect of my business
is growing slowly but surely. But I think it is a different
issue with women. They do not have the economic power
or the ready access to money that most of my male clients
have, and their attitudes are different. When a man comes
to see me it is a simple, no-holds-barred, open business
transaction, but a woman is not used to simply availing
herself of a sexual service.
M. Highcreast: La majorite de mes clients sont
effectivement des hommes, mais comme Valerie l'a dit, la
clientele feminine est en train de s'etablir lentement mais
surement. Mais je pense que ce n'est pas la meme chose
avec les femmes. Elles n'ont pas Ie meme pouvoir
economique ou un acces aussi facile 11 l'argent que la
plupart de mes clients masculins, et leur attitude est
differente. Lorsqu'un homme vient me voir, c'est pour
conclure un marche ouvertement, simplement, mais une
femme n'a pas l'habitude de tout simplement acheter des
services sexuels.
454
Ju~tlce
20: 37
(II
ITraduct/on I
ITw,1
M.Roblnson: Elle veut vous inviter a diner apres?
Mr. Robinson: She wants to take you out (or dinner
afterwards?
M~,l:Ir,h~r~~st: Pas assez souvent.
Mr. Hlghcreast: Not often enough.
Ms Scott: May I address one thing? 1 really believe thnt
if we allowed prostitutes to work on commercially zoned
streets, for instance, and if prostitutes knew they could
work on commercially wned streets and they would not
be harassed by the law, then you would nQt ~ec'
going to work on II re~.idcntiftl mOIlI.
bother with that if you love them 1\ ~pot .
other thing ill that you cllnnl)1 shove Wi.'
area. They will not work tlUlrClellh,r,. .'
MmoiScottl Puis·je vous poser une question? Je suis
fer
convalncue que si nous permettions aux
(ravailler par exemple dans des rues
.. mmqrclalos. et sl les prostituees savaient
ttavailler dans ces rues et sans se faire
. alors on ne les verraient pas
rUl! .residentiellelmes filles ne se
.•. pell)e d'aller dans les rues
leunlQl\nn.it un endroit ou travailler.
nepoUvei pas no us envoyer travailler
ustriel\e. Us flUes' ne voudront pas aller
que c'est
~~,.""",.",,~'.(J.
u'op ...
M.Hlait'croast: Dangereux.
.ft~'~'~"ltDlln.,trouli,
'".' " <ibblhli)titThIlY tried that In
WlHOO
Vancouver. but there
much violence.
M. Robinson: lis ont tente de ,Ie faire a Vancouver,
mais it y avalt trop de violence.
Ms Scott: Yes, way too much violence. So I think a
commercial street, such as Jarvis Street, if any of you are
familiar with Jarvis Street in Toronto ... Now, some of
Jarvis Street has residential buildings, so why can we not
get together with the residents' associations on that street
and say, okay, you do not want us to work on that block
because there is an apartment building there; all right,
how about our going down the street and working on this
block where there are no apartment buildings? We could
work it out with them. I think that could be done.
Mme Scott: Oui, beaucoup trop de violence. Donc je ,
pense qu'une rue commerciale, comm* la rue Jarvis, je ne
sais pas si vous connaissez la rue Jarvis a Toronto ... Mais
il y a certains immeubles residentiels dans cette rue, alors
pourquoi ne pourrions-nous pas rencontrer les
associations de residents de cette rue et leur dire que s'ils
ne veulent pas que nous travaillions devant un immeuble
residentiel, nous irons volontiers travailler un peu plus
loin, a quelques pates de maisons, ou il n'y a pas
d'immeubles a logements. Nous pourrions nous entendre
avec les residents. Je pense que c'est possible .
In fact, at Toronto City Hall we have had a meeting
already with Jack Layton and Chris Korwin-Kuczynski,
two councillors who were starting to look at doing that,
and actually talking with the residents' groups for once,
instead of always fighting with them, to see if we can work
out something like that.
.En fait, a I'h6tel de ville de Toronto nous avons deja
rericontre Jack Layton et Chris Korwin-Kuczynski, deux
conseillers qui ont commence a envisager d'aller parler
aux groupes de residents une fois pour toutes pour que la
dispute cesse, pour voir s'il est possible de s'entendre.
People are just fed up. The federal law is no good, and
even if you toughen it, it will be no good. You could
make it the death penalty and it would not work. The
thing that will work, however, is communication with
these residents' associations and commercial streets. I
think that is a far more viable solution.
Les gens en ont tout simplement assez. La loi federale
ne vaut rien, et meme si vous la renforcez, elle ne vaudra
toujours rien. Vous pourriez imposer la peine de mort et
cela ne marcherait pas. Ce qui marchera, cependant, c'est
de communiquer avec les associations de residents des
rues commerciales. 1e pense que cette solution a de
meilleures chances de n!ussir.
Ms HotchketT: If you look at when they had the body
rub parlours on Yonge Street, people objected to them,
but you did not have the same problem with street
soliciting because the women had another place to work.
If you let women work on commercial streets and you let
them work inside, you are not going to see vast numbers
of street prostitutes.
Mme Hotchkeff: Lorsqu'il y avait par exemple des
salons de massage dans la rue Yonge, les gens s'y sont
opposes, mais Ie racolage ne posait pas Ie meme probleme
parce que les femmes avaient un autre endroit ou aller
travailler. Si on laisse les femmes travailler dans les rues
commerciales, et a l'interieur, il n'y aura pas un aussi
grand nombre de prostitues de rue.
They did that in Sydney, Australia. They have brothels
that come under regular business regulations, and they do
have a street soliciting law that says you cannot work
within 200 yards of a church, school or residence. So you
have a very small area of the city in which you actually do
find street prostitutes, a handful. It is not a problem; in
fact, it is a tourist attraction. It is in the King's Cross area.
C'est ce qu'ils ont fait a Sydney, en Australie. La-bas,
les maisons de passe sont soumises aux memes reglements
que les autres entreprises. lIs ont egalement une loi sur Ie
racolage dans les rues qui interdit de travailler a moins de
200 metres d'une eglise, d'une ecole ou d'une residence.
Donc, ce n'est que dans une toute petite partie de la ville
qu'on peut vraiment trouver des prostitues de rue,
455
20: 38
Justice and the Solicitor General
7-12-1989
[Text)
[Translationj
Prostitution is no longer as visible as it. was in Sydney
since they allowed brothels to operate there. They operate
alongside other businesses. One operates alongside a
youth hostel quite welL The only one that ever gets called
for noise complaints is the youth hostel, not the brotheL
quelques-unes. Ce n'est pas un probleme; en fait, c'est une
a.ttraction touristique. C'est dans Ie quartier King's Cross.
A Sydney, la prostitution n'est plus aussi visible qu'elle ne
l'etait depuis qu'on a permis I'exploitation de maisons de
passe. On retrouve ces maisons un peu partout cote-a-cote
avec d'autres entreprises. II y en a une qui se trouve juste
it cote d'une auberge de jeunesse. Ce n'est pas la maison
de passe, mais bien l'auberge de jeunesse qui fait l'objet de
plaintes acause du bruit.
Mr. Atkinson (St. Catharines): When the Chiefs of
Police came in front of us, they pointed to Niagara Falls
and said that the penalties by and large in the Niagara
area were more severe, and as a result it apparently has
dealt with the problem of the street nuisance through this
new law. Have you any explanation of why it worked in
Niagara Falls?
M. Atkinson (St. Catharines): Lorsque les chefs de
police ont comparu devant Ie Comite, ils ont parle de
Niagara Falls et ils ont dit que les sanctions etaient
beaucoup plus severes dans cette ville, et que par
consequent, cette nouvelle loi semblait avoir regie Ie
probleme dans les rues. Pouvez-vous nous expliquer
pourquoi cela a reussi it Niagara Falls?
Ms Scott: Yes, there are a couple of reasons. A lot of
the women who were working Niagara Falls were
American, and they were coming over because the
penalties in New York State were much tougher for
working on the street than in Canada when there were no
penalties except for indecent act and those kinds of
charges. When it got evened out, the girls were staying
home. Also, a large factor the police are not mentioning is
the dollar. The dollar is not worth a damn, and they
would much rather stay home and make their American
money.
Mme Scott: Oui, il y a plusieurs raisons. Beaucoup de
femmes qui travaillaient it Niagara Falls etaient
americaines, et e\les venaient y travailler parce que les
sanctions dans I'Etat de New-York etaient beaucoup
severes qu'au Canada ou il n'y en avait aucune sauf en cas
d'outrage public a la pudeur etautre infraction de ce
genre. Lorsqu'on a impose des sanctions '!ussi severes it
Niagara Falls, les filles sontrest~es. aux Etats-Unis. En
outre, un facteur important que Ja police ne mentionne
pas est la valeur du dollar. Notre dollar ne vaut pas grandchose, et elles preferent rester aUle Etats.Unis pour gagner
.
des dollars americains.
Mr. Hughes (Macleod): Free trade.
M. Hughes (Macleod): Le Iiqre-echange.
• 1055
Mr. Atkinson: Unfortunately, it is now going the other
way.
Mr. Kaplan: I am not being persuaded by the idea that
you have put forward for how prostitution ought to be
handled. I want to just pursue this street soliciting thing.
What do you think would be the result of a law that was
targeted only at johns?
Ms Scott: I would be against that.
Mr. Kaplan: I am less interested in that than in
whether you think it would work.
Ms Scott: Do I think it would work?
M. Atkinson: Malheureusement, c'est l'inverse.
M. Kaplan: Ce que vous proposez quant it la fa~on de
regier Ie probleme de la prostitution ne m'a pas
convaincu. 1'aimerais parler encore un peu de la
sollicitation dans les rues. Que penseriez-vous d'une loi
qui viserait seulement les clients?
Mme Scott: Je serais contre.
M. Kaplan: Je voudrais surtout savoir si vous pensez
qu'une telle loi serait efficace.
Mme Scott: Si je crois qu'elle serait efficace?
Ms Hotchkeff: You are talking about only targeting the
customers of street prostitutes-
Mme HotchketT: Vous parJez d'une ioi qui viserait
uniquement les clients des prostituees de rues ...
Mr. Kaplan: I know it is harder to do. The police have
given us that evidence. But we have also been toldalthough it is indirect evidence, it is sort of anecdotalthat a city that got tough on people in cars who were
soliciting was able to clean up the streets. I agree that
prostitutes on the streets, to a large extent, are victims,
and are seen by the judges as victims. That is one of the
reasons that the sentences tend to be less than the public
is demanding.
M. Kapl;m: Je sais que c'est plus difficile. C'est ce que
la police nous a dit. Mais on nous a dit egalement-bien
qu'i1 s'agisse d'un temoignage indirect et en quelque sorte
anecdotique-:-que dans une ville ou on a decide d'etre
severe a l'egard des automobilistes qui faisaient du
racoiage, on a reussi it nettoyer les rues. Je conviens que
dans une large mesure, les prostituees dans les rues sont
des victimes, et qu'elles sont considerees commes telles
par les juges. C'est I'une des raisons pour lesquelles les
peines que I'on impose ont tendance a etre moins severes
que celles que reclame la population.
456
20: 39
Justice et Solliciteur general
7-12-1989
[TeXle)
[Traduction)
Johns cannot be thought of that way. They have a car
in most cases. They have money in their pockets. What do
you think would be the result if, in effect, Parliament told
the police to go after them?
On ne peut considerer les clients comme des victimes.
Dans la plupart des cas, ils ont une voiture. lIs ont de
I'argent en poche. Qu'arriverait-il a votre avis si Ie
Parlement disait effectivement a la police de viser les
clients?
Ms Scott: I do not think it will work. Sex and money
are very powerful.
Mme Scott: Je ne pense pas que cela serait efficace. Le
sexe et l'argent sont tres puissants.
Mr. Kaplan: But there would be other ways of going
after it: in bars, in telephone arrangements, in escort
services.
M. Kaplan: Mais iI y aurait d'autres moyens de
I'obtenir: les bars, les services d'escorte, Ie telephone.
Ms Scott: Oh, if it were loosened in other ways.
Mme Scott: Oh, si on etait moins severe de ce cote-Ia.
Mr. Kaplan: I am not even suggesting that. I am
thinking the other ways seem to be pretty loose anyway,
because a lot of commercial sex does go on off the street.
M. Kaplan: Ce n'est pas ce que j'ai suggere. Je pense
que I'on n'est pas teHement severe de ce cote-Ia de toute
fa<;on, puisque Ie commerce du sexe en dehors du
racolage semble etre assez florissant.
Ms Scott: I do not think it will work, because, as I said
earlier, the reason some people are going to street
prostitutes is a question of economics. I think you are just
going to end up targeting people who do not have $200.
Mme Scott: Je ne pense pas que cela marchera, car
comme je I'ai dit plus tot, la raison pour laquelle certains
vont chercher des prostituees dans les rues, c'est que leur
service coute moins cher. Ainsi, je pense que vous ne
feriez que viser les gens qui n'on pas 200$.
Ms Hotchkeff: The prostitution laws are set up for the
benefit of people in your economic bracket. You can tell
who is making the prostitution laws, because it is perfectly
legal for a guy who is staying at the Sheraton Centre to
call up an escort and have her come over. He is not going
to call up a cop by mistake. Yet, in terms of a workingclass guy going out on the street, he has a chance of
picking up an undercover policewoman who is posing as
a prostitute. On the one hand, the guy who has the money
not have to pay any penalty for using the service, but
whO does not have the same economic clout does
.. ' . of paying the penalty.
Mme Hotchkeff: Les lois sur la prostitution sont
con<;ues pour profiter aux gens qui ont les memes moyens
economiques que vous. II est facile de savoir qui fait les
lois sur la prostitution, car un client de I'hotel Sheraton
peut sans enfreindre la loi, faire appel a un service
d'escorte. II ne risque pas de tomber sur une policiere par
erreur. Cependant, un type de la c1asse ouvriere qui
cherche une prostituee dans la rue risque de tomber sur
une femme qui se fait passer pour une prostituee mais qui
est en realite un agent secret. D'un cote, cdui qui a de
I'argent n'a aucune amende a payer, mais celui qui n'a
pas autant d'argent risque d'avoir a en payer une.
"people who are engaging in the
..the streets are from a class of
.
,to deal with that problem.
.
urhoods to the people
M. Kaplan: Si les clients de prostituees de rues sont
d'une certaine c1asse de la societe... nous essayons
toujours de regler ce probleme. Nous essayons de rendre
leur quartier aux gens qui I'habitent.
Ms
.10 consider that prostitutes
are also citizens of
If you want us to have the
same responsibilities as everyone else. you should give us
the same rights as everyone else. That Is not the way the
situation is currently. Prostitutes are stigmatized and
victimized not only by the law but also by their customers
and by residents' groups.
Mme Hotchkeff: Vous ne devez pas oublier que les
prostitues sont egalement des citoyens de notre pays. Si
vous voulez que nous ayons lesmemesresponsabilites que
les autres, vous devriez nous· donner les memes droits
egalement. Ce n'est pas" Ie' "cas actuellement. Les
prostituees sont stigmatisecsctcllessont les victimes non
seulement de la 101 maisegalcment de leurs clients et des
groupes de residents.
Mr. Kaplan: You are telling me that the law is unfair,
and I am really asking you whether it would work.
M. Kaplan: Vous me'dlles que la loi est injuste, et ce
que je vous demande en rea
c'est si cela marcherait.
Ms Hotchkeff: Whether it would work? You are not
concerned about whether it is fair or not.
Mme Kotchk.rrl SLcela marcherait? Peu vous importe
que la 10i soit JU$te Q4 nori.
lite ,
Ms Scott: This is the 1980s.
Mme Seott:- Nous SOmmes dans les annees 80.
Mr. Kaplan: I have my own judgments about that.
M. Kaplan: J'al mon opinion la-dessus.
Mr. Robinson: You are on record as saying that we
should repeal the bawdy-house provisions.
M. Robinson: Vous avez declare publiquement que
nous devrlons abroger les dispositions concernant les
malsons de passe.
457
20: 40
Justice and the Solicitor General
[Text]
7-12-1989
[Translation]
Mr. Kaplan: That is the Fraser commission approach.
M. Kaplan: C'est ce que recommandait la Commission
Fraser.
Ms HotchkefT: We are the only group of prostitutes that
are actually represented in front of this committee. We
did want to object to the fact that a group of nonprostitutes managed to absorb some of our time. It is rare
that we get the opportunity to put our views forward.
Mme HotchkefT: Nous sommes Ie seul groupe de
prostitues effectivement represente devant Ie Comite.
Nous voulions nous opposer au fait qu'un groupe de nonprostitues ait reussi a prendre une partie de notre temps.
II est rare que nous ayons l'occasion de faire valoir nos
points de vue.
June Rowlands appeared before the committee. She
suggested that the street law was needed to curb disease.
She said that it cost $12 million in Metropolitan Toronto
alone to treat prostitutes for STDs. I think it was
interesting that nobody challenged her. What was her
source? The reason nobody challenged her is that there
are no statistics on how much it cost to treat the whole
population of Metro Toronto for STDs. If you look for
them, you will not find them. There is no breakdown.
The public health department has no statistics and the
Hassle-free Clinic has no statistics.
June Rowland a comparu devant Ie Comite. Elle a
laisse entendre que la loi sur la prostitution dans les rues
etait necessaire pour contrer la maladie. Elle a dit que
dans la region de Toronto, il en coute 12 millions de
dollars pour traiter les prostitues atteintes de maladies
transmises sexuellement. rai trouve interessant que
personne n'ait conteste ce qu'elle a dit. D'ou tient-elle ses
renseignements? Si personne n'a remis en question ses
affirmations, c'est qu'il n'existe aucune statistique sur Ie
cout des services de traitement des MTS pour l'ensemble
des habitants de Toronto. II est tout a fait impossible d'en
trouver. Ni les services d'hygiene publique ni la Hasslefree Clinic n'ont des statistiques la-dessus .
• 1100
In terms of studies of prostitutes and STDs, there was's'
huge study done in the States by the Centre for Disease
ControL They found 95% of STDs wereattriblited to non\,;
prostitutes.
.Quarttaux ;et(.fde!i surles prostitue'eset les MTS, une
€tu:de'de grande 'erivergure 'il'et6effectuee'parle Centre
/rJr 'Dtfease;eoi'lUbl.(j):n a' coristate que 9S p.WO des MTS
etaientattribttables a des groupe!! au des personnes autres
que les prostituees.
If that is true and we take June Rola,nd's figure, the 5%
attributed to prostitutes equals 12 million. It costs $240
million a year to treat Metropolitan Toronto for STDs.
. That does not seem reasonable. She was allowed to slander
an entire group of people without being challenged and
we feel that is indicative of the discrimination we face
every day.
Si c'est vrai et si I'on "accepte Ie chiffre de June
Rowland, les 5 p. 100 attribuables aux prostituees
couteraient 12 millions de dollars. Autrement dit, Ie cout
du traitement des MTS pour la ville de Toronto serait de
240 millions de dollars par an. Cela ne nous semble pas
raisonnable. Elle a donc calomnie tout un groupe de
personnes sans qu'on remette Ie moindrement en question
ses affirmations, et pour nous, cela prouve bien que nous
sommes encore victimes de discrimination.
M. Leblanc: On ,a parle tout a l'heure des enfants qui
se prostituaient. Etant donne qu'il y a une loi, la
prostitution est souvent geree par des gens malhonnetes,
par des criminels. Si la loi etait moins severe ou s'il n'y
avait pas de loi au niveau de la prostitution mais plutot
des reglements, croyez-vous que la prostitution serait
geree par des gens honnetes et qu'on pourrait mieux
controler la prostitution chez les jeuneset penaliser les
clients qui se servent des jeunes au lieu de penaliser les
prostituees? Cela pourrait faire partie des reglements
qu'on pourrait etablir dans cette nouvelle optique de la
prostitution.
Mr. Leblanc: We were talking about child prostitution
earlier. Because it is against the law, the prostitution
business often attracts people who are crooked or who are
criminals. If the law were less harsh or if we had
regulations on prostitution rather than actual legislation,
do you think that it would be likely be controlled by
honest people and that we would be in a better position to
control child prostitution and to penalize customers who
use these young people rather than penalizing prostitutes?
This is something we could look at in the context of
regulations to control prostitution.
Vous savez que notre loi est plus ou moins valable.
Vous reconnaissez que vous etes des prostituees et vous
etes dans cetle salle. Si notre loi etait valable, on
demanderait tout de suite a la police de vous arreter. On
ne Ie fait pas. Cela veut dire que nous sommes assez
ouverts.
As you already know, the current law is not all that
effective. You have admitted being prostitutes, and yet you
sit here in this room with us. If our law were really
effective, we would have called in the police to arrest you.
But we have not done that. So we are ob,viously fairly
open-minded.
I would like to reiterate my view that the current law
on prostitution is probably more immoral than prostitutes
Je repete que I'actuelle loi sur la prostitution est
probablement plus immorale que les prostituees elles-
458
20: 41
;,~
(Twel
m~mes. C'est une opinion personnclle
que> J!tl(Rf;i
aujourd'hui. Je ne suis pas membra petltlan.,,\! ij
Comite, et je dis aux membres permanent du Comb
faut envisager serieusement de decrlmlnql\s
prostitution, parce que la prostitution va touJours e
de toute maniere.
Prenons I'exemple de I'alcoo!. Au moment ou I',alcoof:'
etait interdit, la pegre en faisait un commerce illegal et
des gens se faisaient tuer. Tout Ie monde s'entretuait pour
prendre Ie controle de l'alcoo!. Il y a des gens qui sont
devenus illegalement tres riches avec l'alcool. II y a eu des
crimes epouvantables. Maintenant qu'on a legalise
l'alcool, on peut Ie controler. L'alcool est vendu
strictement dans des magasins specialises, et les jeunes ne
peuvent pas en acheter. Par exemple, au Quebec, il y a
des magasins de la Regie des alcools qui vendent de
I'alcool, et un jeune de moins de 18 ans ne peut pas en
acheter. Si
,nle . I'alcool, on peut aussi
Cela pourrait etre fait de
reglementer '
faeron plus
itable et probablement plus
morale
ment.
ITraduction I
themselves. But here, I am expressing only a personal
,opinion. I am not a permanent member of this
'cOmmittee, but I do think the regular members should
§i!rlO\.lsly consider decriminalizing prostitution, because
pfbstltutlon will always be with us no matter what we do.
. '{'lke alcohol, for example. During prohibition, the
mob made money selling it illegally and a lot of people
eot killed. Mobsters were killing each other off to gain
control of the bootleg liquor business. A number of
people SOt very rich bootlegging. Terrible crimes were
commlltild. But now that liquor is legal, we can control it.
It Is only sold in special stores, and young people are not
allowed to buy It. In Quebec, for instance, Liquor Control
Boord stores sell alcohol, and young people under the age
of 18 arc not permitted to buy it. If we can regulate
alcohol. We can also regulate prostitution. It could
probably be done more fairly and in a more· morally
acceptable way than is currently the case.
que je recommande ames
d'envisager les recommandations
ThaI is why I would recommend to all my colleagues
on the committee that they consider this possibility.
avoir une TC!pOnSe a rna petite question.
que si la prostitution etait legalisee et
par des gens honnetes, nos mineurs seraient
proteges?
Perhaps you could give me an answer to my question.
Do you believe that if prostitution were to be legalized
and were controlled by honest people, minors would
benefit from a greater protection?
Ms Scott: I do not think it would necessarily be better
protection for minors~ First of all, legalization does not
work. Decriminalization does work. They are two very
different rhings.
Mme Scott: Je 'ne pense pas que les mineurs seraient
necessairement mieux proteges. D'abord, cela ne servirait
a rien de legaliser la prostitution. Par contre, il serait tout
a fait indique de decriminaliser cette activite. II s'agit de
deux choses bien distinctes .
• 1105
{
"."
Either way, if you have decriminalization or
legalization, a 14- or IS-year-old out there who needs
money for somewhere to stay that night is going to work
on the street. I do not think either criminalizing adult
prostitutes or decriminalizing adult prostitution will stop
the juvenile prostitution trade. It is a poverty issue and
you do have to look at social programs for the kids. I
think the social programs have to be more geared toward
those kids. As they are now, they are geared more toward
the social workers' lifestyle, not the kids' lifestyle at all.
This is why they are not working.
D'une faeron ou d'une autre, qu'i1 y ait
decriminalisation ou legalisation, un jeune de 14 ou 15
ans qui a besoin d'argent pour dormir quelque part va se
retrouver dans la rue pour travailler. Je ne pense pas que
criminaliser ou decriminaliser la prostitution chez les
adultes mettra fin au commerce de la prostitution des
mineurs. C'est une question de pauvrete, et it faut
examiner les programmes sociaux pour les enfants. Je
pense que les programmes sociaux doivent etre davantage
axes sur ces enfants. Actuellement, ils sont davantage axes
sur Ie mode de vie des travailleurs sociaux, que sur celui
des jeunes. C'est pour cela qu'i1s ne sont pas efficaces.
Ms HotchkefT:
juveniles-
of preventing
Mme HotchketT: Pour ce qui est d'empecher les
mineurs...
M. Leblanc: II faudrait prevoir dans la loi, ou dans les
reglements qu'on pourrait etablir, des pen a lites plus
severes pour Ie client qui utilise des mineurs.
Mr. Leblanc: The legislation or regulations should
provide for tougher penalities for customers of juvenile
prostitutes.
Ms Scott: That law is already in place. It came into
effect January 1, 1988. It is a quite severe penalty.
Customers of juvenile prostitutes can get five years now.
Mme Scott: La loi existe deja. Elle est entree en
vigueur Ie 1er janvier 1988. La sanction est assez severe.
Les clients qui utilisent des mineurs peuvent maintenant
I
think
in
terms
459
20: 42
7-12-1989
Justice and the Solicitor General
[TextJ
[Translation 1
The police never use it; they are too busy arresting adult
prostitutes. It is too lucrative.
ecoper jusqu 'a cinq ans. Toutefois la police n 'applique
jamais la loi, elle est trop occupee a arreter les prostituees
adultes. C'est trop lucratif.
Mr. Nunziata: I have some specific questions. How
much can an average prostitute earn on the street in a
year?
M. Nunziata: J'ai quelques questions precises. Combien
une prostituee qui travaille dans la rue peut-elle gagner en
moyenne en une annee?
Ms Scott: Oh, it really depends on the night or the
time of the year.
Mr. Nunziata: Just give me an average, if that is not
hard to do.
Mme Scott: Oh, cela depend des soirees ou du temps
de I'annee.
M. Nunziata: Donnez~moi tout simplement une
moyenne, ce n'est pas difficile.
Ms Scott: What is an average? You can stand out there
for eight hours and not make a dime.
Mme Scott: Qu'est-ce qu'une moyenne? On peut rester
la pendant huil heures sans gagner un sous.
Mr. Nunziata: No, I would like to know on an annual
basis.
M. Nunziata: Non, je voudrais savoir ce qu'elle gagne
en une annee.
Ms Scott: On a good night, you can make $300. If a
prostitute were to work eight hours at night five nights a
week ... I do not know any who do.
. Mme Scott: Une bonne soiree, elle peut gagner 300$. Si
une prostituee travsillaithuit heures par jour, cinq soirs
par semaine ... Mais je n'en connais pas qui Ie font.
Ms Hotchkeff: Prostitution is more or less a workingclass profession. Prostitutes are not rolling in money.
Girls tend to exaggerate how much they make.
Mme Hotchkeff: Lapi9stittilio~ est plus ou moins un
metier de la c1asse ouvdere.Les piostitues ne roulent pas
sur I'or. Les filles ont tend'ance 'cxagerer combien elles
gagnent.
Mr. Nunziata: Tell me without exaggeration how much
an average street prostitute can make.
M. Nunziata: Dites-moi sans exageration combien une
prostituee de rue gagne en moyenne.
a
Ms Scott: About $20,000.
Mme Scott: Environ 20,000$.
Ms Hotchkeff: Yes, about $20,000 a year, I would say.
Mme Hotchkeff: Oui, je dirais environ 20,000$ par an.
Mr. Nunziata: I assume the call girls or the escort
services make substantially more. How much can an
average call girl who operates an escort service make?
M. Nunziata: Je suppose que les call-girls ou celles qui
travaillent pour des services d'escorte font beaucoup plus
d'argent. Combien peut gagner en moyenne une fiUe qui
travaille pour un service d'escorte?
Ms Scott: If she is a workaholic, she can make $50,000
or $60,000 a year.
Mme Scott: Si eUe travaille fort, eUe peut gagner
50,000$ ou 60,000$ par an.
Mr. Nunziata: That is a fairly good living.
M. Nunziata: Ce n'est pas si mal.
Ms Hotchkeff: When they wen! talking about bringing
in the GST, we were questioned as to whether street
prostitutes would come under that. The first response
from the government's hot-line on the tax was that street
prostitutes would indeed come under the GST. A $50
blow job would now cost $54.50, $4.50 of which was to go
to the government. However, we are told by the chairman
of the committee that most prostitutes would be excluded
from that because of the small-traders' provision.
Mr. Nunziata: That is why they call it "the gouge and
screw".
Mme HotchketT: Lorsqu'il a ete question de la TPS, on
nous a demande si les prostituees de rue seraient
touchees. La premiere reponse que nous avons obtenue de
la Iigne ouverte du gouvernement sur la taxe etait que les
prostituees de rue seraient effectivement touchees par la
TPS. Une pipe qui coute aujourd'hui 50$ couterait
54,50$, c'est-a-dire que 4,50$ irait au gouvernement.
Cependant, Ie president du Comite a dit que la plupart
des prostituees n'auraient pas a payer la TPS en raison de
la disposition concernant les petits commer~ants.
M. Nunziata: C'est Ie principe du «gruger, fourrer».
Ms Hotchkeff: Most prostitutes are making under
$30,000 a year and so would not have to pay the
Mme Hotchkeff: La plupart des prostituees font moins
de 30,000$ par an, de sorte qu'elles n'auront pas a payer
les 9 p. 100.
Mr. Nunziata: Is it fair to say that the call girls or those
who operate escort services are generally the more
sophisticated, brighter prostitutes and that in an ideal
world, all the street prostitutes-
M. Nunziata: II est juste de dire que les call-girls et
ceux qui ope rent les services d'escorte sont en general des
prostituees plus sophistiquees, plus intelligentes et que
dans un monde ideal, toutes les prostituees de rue ...
?%.
Ms Scott: That is Hollywood.
Mme Scott: C'est Hollywood.
460
7-12-1989
20: 43
Justice et Solliciteur general
[Texle]
Ms Hotchkeff: A lot of street prostitutes move back and
forth.
Mr. Nunziata: Why would someone work on the streets
if they have the ability to start up a business and operate
an escort service?
[Traduction]
Mme Hotchkeff: De nombreuses prostituees de rue
font les deux.
M. Nunziata: Pourquoi une fiUe travaillerait-elJe dans
les rues si eUe a la capacite de se lancer en affaires et
d'operer un service d'escorte?
Ms Scott: People work on the streets for different
reasons. A lot of women like the immediacy of it, a lot of
women are in it part time. A lot of students are working
as prostitutes; it is a pretty good job and you get a lot of
time to study. There are a lot of reasons. People do not
always want to set up a whole business. They just want to
go out there if they are short some money, make it and
get back in. A lot of people do not want to get into the
whole business of it. They are part-timers. .
Mme Scott: Les gens travaillent dans les rues pour
toutes sortes de raisons. Bon nombre de femmes aiment Ie
caractere immediat de ce travail, bon nombre de femmes
Ie font a temps partie!. De nombreux etudiants travaillent
comme prostitues; c'est un assez bon travail et vous avez
Ie temps d'etudier. II y a de nombreuses raisons. Les gens
ne veulent pas toujours mettre sur pieds toute une
entreprise. lis veulent tout simplement travailler lorsqu'i!s
ont besoin d'argent, c'est tout. Bien des gens ne veulent
pas se lancer dans toute une entreprise. lIs travaillent a
temps partie!.
Ms Hotchkeff: If they are working for an agency rather
than setting up their own agency, some of the agencies
charge exorbitant amounts for each client they see. The
agency may charge 60% of what you are making for itself.
A lot of people have worked the street and they are used
to keeping all the money themselves. They do not want to
give 60% to an agency simply for referring a cal!. Also,
people's circumstances change-to work as an escort you
have to have a telephone and a place to live. If you lose
your telephone or your place to live, there is no way you
can work for an escort agency.
Mme Hotchkeff: Si elles travaillent pour une agence
plutot qu'a leur propre compte, on leur retient une
somme exorbitante sur chaque client. Une agence peut
demander jusqu'a 60 p. 100 de ce que gagne la prostituee.
Beaucoup ont travaille dans la rue et ont l'habitude de
garder tout I'argent pour elles. Elles ne veulent pas en
donner 60 p. 100 a une agence tout simplement parce que
ceUe derniere leur a transmis un appe!. En outre, la
situation des gens change; pour travailler pour un service
d'escorte, it faut avoir Ie telephone et un logement. Si I'on
perd son telephone ou son logement, il est impossible de
travailler pour un service d'escorte.
-1110
Mr. Nundnta: Just one final question as far as the
escort services are concerned. Do the police ,in any way
'
bother the operators of escort services?
M. Nunziata: Une derniere question, en ce qui
concerne les services d'escorte. La police harcele-t-elle
ceux qui operent les services d'escorte?
Ms Scott: Yes, but not as often as the women on the
street. Escort service operators are subject to charges of
living off the avails, controlling, directing--all the
procuring sections. I break the law every single day
because I answer the phones for the escort service I
operate. It is just me and Ryan-she has a deep voice and
she does not answer the phones because everybody thinks
she is a guy-but I can get 10 years for doing that.
Mme Scott: Oui, mais pas aussi souvent que les femmes
dans la rue. Les operateurs de services d'escorte peuvent
etre accuses de vivre du produit de la prostitution. aux
termes de tous les articles relativement au proxenetisme.
l'enfreins la loi chaque jour parce que je reponds aux
appels telephoniques du service d'escorte que j'opere. II
n'y a que moi et Ryan--elle a une voix grave et elle ne
repond pas au telephone parce que tout Ie monde 1a
prend pour un homme--mais je peux 6coper 10 ans pour
cela.
Ms Hotchkeff: Yes, she is setting up business for me,
and that is why she comes under the procuring charge.
Mme Hotchkeff: Oui, elle m9i\le I,iM affaire pour moi,
et c'est pourquoi elle peut 81re aQ¢tise~ deproxenetisme.
Ms Scott: Also, my son, every time I put food in front
of him-he is breaking the law if he eats it. The Criminal
Code of Canada says he is a pimp because I support him.
Mme Scott: En outre,
manger a mon fils, iI on .
lui presente. Le Code
proxenete parce que je
Ms Hotchkeff: Yes, he is over the age of 12, so he
would only come under the Juvenile Offenders Act.
Mme Hotchkeftl
sous Ie regime d.
Mm. Scotti U
Ms Scott: He would get only three years.
Mr. Nunziata: Let us get serious.
Mr. Robinson: Perhaps our researchers
.. the Department of National D·...' ... "',"''''''~..,.'"''''~
-.
'0
e
je donne a
mange ce que je
. stipule qu'il est
que
est
M.Nu
pourraient peut-etre
national ce qui en est
461
Justice and the Solicitor General
7-12-1989
(Textl
[Translation 1
exactly what the status is with respect to tax deductibility
in this area. We have been told that this is a tax deductible
item and I certainly would be interested to k.now what
position the Depai'lment of National Revenue tak.es on
this. Perhaps we could-
exactement en ce qui concerne la deductibilite d'impots
dans ce domaine. On nous a dit qu'it s'agissaitd'un
produit deductible d'impot, et il m'interesserait de savoir
queUe est la position du ministere du Revenu national it
eet egard. Nous pourrions peut-etre ...
M. Nunziata: Oui, mais combien d'entre eux paient des
impots.
M. Robinson: ... demander it nos recherchistes de s'en
occuper.
Une voix: Madame Scott, payez-vous vos impots
comme tout Ie monde?
Mme Scott: Oui. Je paie mes impots depuis 1984.
M. Kaplan: Pouvons-nous egalement faire un suivi sur
Ie temoignage de June Rowland? Nos recherchistes
pourraient-ils verifier ce qu'elle a dit et ce qu'eUe voulait
dire?
Le vice-president (M. LittIechild): Oui. Je remercie les
temoins. La seance est levee jusqu'it mardi, it 9 heures.
Mr. Nunziata: Yes, but how many of them pay taxes?
Mr. Robinson: -ask. our researchers to look. into that.
An hon. member: Ms Scott, do you pay your taxes Iik.e
everybody else?
Ms Scott: Yes, I do. I have since 1984.
Mr. Kaplan: Can we also follow up on June Rowla'nd's
evidence? Can our researchers check. out what she said
and what she meant?
The Vice-Chairman (Mr. Littlechild): Yes. Thank. you
very much to the witnesses. We stand adjourned until 9
a.m. Tuesday.
462
This is Exhibit
G-
referred to in the affidavit of
Q""--S~C,,-,,o,,-,-\l---,->r-_ _ _ _ _swom before me,
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this
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463
'C""I'I"'-'iTUJnlcating for the purpose of prostitution"
,r· ,
alII
I
c.
(
I
In this issue...
News
City politicians consider a
"zone of tolerance" pg 3
A report on The Works pg 4
NY is getting it together pg 5
Prowling by night pg 4
Editorial
Introducing Stil~tto pg 2
Personal stories
Surviving do-gooders pg 6
Safe sex is our business
Who are those whoresliwith
free condoms, anyway? pg 11
The wages of sin
.
Minding our business pg9
Body Talk
Feed your pussy well pg 8
History
Wild west hos! pg 7
464
uclng Stiletto, the spunky new
magazine for prostitutes
"White slave ring smashed,"
screamed the Toronto Sun headline.
The story was one of the exploitation
and degradation of young women
lured into, and then trapped in,
prostitution. Pimping charges had
been laid and a couple of men were
being held in custody. These were
big-time operators. Chalk, one up for
the boys in blue..
Later that evening, 1 got a call from
a girl in the business who I'll call
Debbie. She was crying. Her boyfriend, Dave, had been arrested and
she wanted help getting him oul Her
girlfriend was in the same situation.
Debbie asked ifl'd seen the Sun
today and then identified herself and
her friends as the "white slave ring"
referred to in the paper.
When 1 met her in court the next
morning, her eyes were red and puffy
i ... .'
!
from crying all night. "I dido't know
he could get busted - he's my boyfriend," she said. Dave appeared in
the dock, hand-cuffed, looking sleepy
and disheveled in his prison blues. He
made faces at his girl, trying to get
her to smile.
Dave's lawyer tried to get him bail
so he could go to his fuU-time job as a
stripper. Mter seeing the severity of
the charges, the judge refused and
added, "stripping is nota real job."
Dave was remanded in custody.
The girls drove me home in their
beat-up old clunker. As we chugged
along, they discussed whether to get
lunch or put gas in the car.
These were the big-time operators
referred to in "White slave ring''? No,
that was a Sun fantasy invented for
the titillation of its readers. The truth
was the cops had arrested the
.
(.
,
'.
We're the Campaign to Decrlmioa1ize PTosiitution.
ADd ,.. (ar J'RU fJieads) am jIia by
sea.diac J8'1' UIIIe" mailiQ:
.wms. Idep_e a. .her ad. S5.-beJsIlip fee (120 .'EniDtieas)
III <DP: de CORP. Ba 1143. S'bdiaa F. Tara.... ON ..4V ZT8
Don't delay - join tbe ounpaign today!
2/Stiletto
boyfriends of a couple of prostitutes
who worked together for safety
because they were friends. The truth
doesn't cast the cops in quite the same
light- or sell as many papers.
The Canadian Organization for the
Rights of Prostitutes (CORP) has long
wanted to do a magazine because of
incidents like this. CORP is a group
of currently working male and female
prostitutes founded in 1983 by a street
whore who had been busted one time
too many. We see prostitution as a
job, not a crime. We lobby for the
repeal of discriminatory laws like the
communicating and pimping laws.
We also try to influence public
opinion. We aren't ashamed of being
prostitutes. Since we all have to work,
prostitution is as good a job as any
and better than most.
The straight press, like the Sun,lies
about our lives. They indulge in a
daily orgy of whore-bashing, holding
us up to scorn and ridicule. Those
grotesque stereotypes in "White slave'
ring" are used to justify repressive
laws against us. If we are less than
human, anything can be justified.
Stiletto will be an honest forum for
the exchange of ideas, stories and
information about the law, our rights,
the business, safe-sex practices and
anything else of interest to working
prostitutes. Let's expose the cops,
courts, bad tricks, and manipulative
social workers and all of those who
trample on our human rights.
We need your help, as a prostitute,
to make this work. Write to us about
the magazine, your work, and your
experiences with things like the law.
Send us your personal stories, poems
and cartoons. We hope to publish
every two months.
Those people who trample on our
rights and victimize us rely on our
silence to do so. By remaining silent,
we contribute to our own victimization. CORP hopes that, with
Stiletto. we'll be able to speak out and
fight back.
Ryan Hotchkiss, editor
Ryan Hotchkiss is a member ofthe
Canadian Organizationfor the rights
Prostitutes (CORP) and is one ofthe
female AIDS educators wlw work with
Prostitutes' Safe Sex Project.
465
'»:-"-
IItiolln8 discuss Uzone of tolerance"
""Dld 'J ully lJolloolllorChris
.
KtifW ill,l\iWi.yn!lk1 and
W. AMplttl c(lulIIJlIlor Jack Layton
'tull!!ly luoklnl! InkHhc idea ora
I ;diit' 1u\<VOf " "1,onc of toler,tJiI Nllvomlx.v 6, tho pair held
MUtlll!)1 CIIY HAil 10 discuss the
11th';!!,
iti Ii:ll!t!f inv IlIng people to
U.., iil,,~(jlll&. Korwin-Kuczyn.Mf Ihlll, "III. Ii medical fact
IItlhm contrlbu\cs to the
of (itnfill1l.J1\k:able diseases."
ttll!! 8lNllllled fact is simply
Altho mooLlns CORP
t)hjoolOd 10 Korwin-Kuczyn. .ud cited several of
(1i')cII, fuaLlonal and interJekmliftc studies that prove
a
hi Ilg"lnlil mandatory health
thoy arc actually dan-
~UilO
10 tlW' health. If we had to get
for _~Ulill)' lraI\smitted
(8"1) ovory week or so, as
n f9<t.llitu 1.ones in other
tho world, we would probably
by II city bylaw to carry a
with out S'fD status on it. Ima. bow dlmeult it will be to try and
CUlU>IUCf to wear a condom if
Q~ lUys we don't have
"ubUe health departments
,., aUYII to use condoms, prosdo. 'IlICNC cards wiD ruin all of
llno education to customers
have done over the
Connlo Clement, representing
OfOccr of Health, also
'hilt the ovidence shows that
Ire not a danger to the
ltoft"h because most prostitutes
&heIr clients to use condoms.
Stephens spoke at length
t of tho Elizabeth Fry Society
thut E Pry is also against
STf) checks because they
mAko It more difficult for proslO Mal c IlonL'! to use condoms
tMGltllliO Huch wsts would be
"11 10 1)f'Olilitutes. Stephens
It IIry '/I position that proslih()ultl be decriminalized,
thlilllr.glllll.ed, because legalil:r~dlll IlfOstilutes as mere prod-
ucts to be bought and sold whereas
decriminalization treats prostitutes as
human beings deserving of dignity.
Korwin-Kuczynski, who did not
have any evidence to back up his
position that prostitutes are disease
spreaders, conceded that he was not
well informed on prostitution and the
spread of STDs. To his credit, he
changed his position; many politicians would stick to their position
without regard for how wrong they
were or how many people they hurt.
CORP representatives also got a
chance to express concern about
where prostitutes would be allowed to
work. We said that we would not
endorse an area outside of the city or
in an industrial area. We proposed
that if prostitutes were allowed to
work on streets that are zoned as
commercial, without being arrested
and harassed by the police, then we
wouldn't work on residential streets.
In response to this, Jack Layton
suggested the creation of "zones of
tolerance." He agreed that the best
place for these such zones would be
on commercially zoned streets inside
the city. In the case of a street that is
zoned mixed residential and commercial' like Jarvis Street, Layton
suggested prostitutes and residents
could meet at City Hall to work out
conflicts. For-example, if the residents
of an apartment block did not want us
to work outside their building, we
could agree to work on the next
commercial block. As long as we
didn't work on residential streets,
under this proposal, we would not be
arrested or harassed. Layton is aware
that we cannot all be lumped into one
area and that the areas must be large
enough. CORP stated that we would
like to see as few prostitutes forced to
move as possible.
Inspector John Jackson, of 14 division, represented the police in the
meeting. Jackson doesn't have the
power to make any decisions and was
filling in for his boss, Superintendent
John Getty. Jackson said he would,
"wekome any move to lessen the
impact of prostitution in residential
neighbourhoods." However, it may be
difficult to get the police to give up
the easy and profitable work of policing prostitution. We certainly do prop
up the police arrest statistics. But the
situation is not hopeless. If we can
work this out with the residents, our
chances of getting the police to
c(H)peratewill be greatly improved.
There are some differences
between the "zone of tolerance" being
proposed and a standard red-light
zone. Red-light districts are a product
of "legalization," which views
prostitution as a vice that needs to be
contained and controlled. These
controls are always arbitrary and
make the business more dangerous for
prostitutes. Sex workers complain that
they get to keep much less of their
money under legalization. The
red-light zone/legalization solution
does not include prostitutes in the
decision-making process. These are
just some of the reasons why attempts
to "legalize" prostitution always fail.
It is only logical that if a system is
contemptuous of us we will be
contemptuous of it
The "zone of tolerance" approach
sees prostitution as a business that
needs fair regulation. This approach
encourages all groups affected, including prostitutes, to communicate with
each other in order to work out solutions. Working with residents' groups
may be difficult because we have
seen each other as enemies for so
long. It isn't decriminalization, under
which we would be allowed to work
anywhere, but it's not as bad as a.
standard red light zone. Our problem
with both types of zones is that as
soon as a prostitute steps out of the
area, she could be chucked in jail.
This is discrimination. She should be
treated like any other business person
- the worst that should happen is
that she would have to pay a $53 fme
for breaking a bylaw.
A date for the next meeting hasn't
been set yet, but we expect it to be in
late January. CORP will be there and
we hope you will too. Phone us at
588-9037 to find out when the next
meeting is or if you want more information about it. This is your issue and
your voice is damned important here, .
Valerie Scott
Stiletto\'3
466
The goods on "The Works"
i ;
j
r --
~
You've seen their ads in NOW: "Are
you shooting up? .:' The Worlcs, the
needle exchange at 660 Dundas West
We've all heard about the place so I
paid them a visit and here's what I
discovered.
I dropped in on them in a rather
clandestine manner, nQ mention was
made of who I was, my CORP
afftliation, etcetera.Twas simply a
customer with two used needles to
exchange. They offered me clean
needles at the rate of up to 10 to one.
I wasn't~~~ if I was a user, or the
user, I was simply asked bow many
needles I would like. I took 20 - why
not? No other questions were asked,
although the person minding the store
was curious as to how I heard ,about
the project Lubed or dry condoms,
condom wallets, small packets of
personal lubricant. and bleach kits
(which also contained condoms and
personal lube) were also availabl~
free for the taking, along with the
usual reams of safe-sex and safedrug-use literature. So far pretty
routine, right? Did I say no other
questions were asked? Well, not quite.
Before the project worker gave me
my 20 needles I had to be assigned a
"personal code." When I asked why, I
was told, "It's for the government ...
they want us to keep track of the
number of people we serve." Uh-huh.
This personal code is derived in the
following manner: they use the fIrst
letter of your flfSt name, the second
and third letters of your mother's frrst
name, and the month and year you
were born.
ThiS information was recorded on a
form which also bad areas designated
for other info such as your age and
"general comments." I was the fourth
person written up on one particular
page and while I was there only my
personal code was entered. You could
easily give them anyletter/number
combination you wanted to contrive
(in order to totally maintain your
anonymity). My only question is why
bother with such a thing at all? If The
Works must keep a tally of the clients
4/Stiletto
they serve for the Ministry, I would
think that a simple numeric total
would be enough. What difference
would it make if they aided four
people three times each or 12 people
once? A need is a need.
Assigning personal codes to patrons of a service such as The Works
bothers me. What can a person with a
computer discover about me based on
the information I have surrendered?
Can someone determine my social
insurance number? Is the project try..
ing to take a census of the intravenous
drug users in Toronto? If so, why?
And, of course, is any of this information available to the police? I found
The Works to be generous with their
goodies but stingy with information.
You can come'to your own
conclusions.
Alexandre Higbcrest
Wanna make a movie?
In celebration of its 15th anniversary,
Studio D - the women's studio of the
National Film Board (NFB}-asked
for proposals from Canadian women
for ftlms about what was on their
minds and in their hearts. The studio
received 240 proposals and chose 17
fllrnmakers, each of whom will make
a five-minute fllrn. These 17 ftlms
will be screened together allover the
country. One of them will be made by
Gwendolyn.
Gwendolyn is a stripper, occasional
prostitute and outreach worker for the
Prostitutes' Safe Sex Project You
may have seen her - she's the crazy
lady who rides around Cabbagetown
on her bike giving out condoms in the
middle of the night The fIlm she will
make for the NFB is called Prowling
by Nighl.
Do you know about "Sperm Whale"?
Any girl who has been on the street a
few months has heard of Sperm
Whale, a huge cop often assigned to
large sweeps. He's dangerous. He
really gets off on power and humiliation. He forces girls to suck him off,
sometimes at gunpoint. and steals
their money. One girl we spoke to had
been assaulted and robbed by him and
then given 30 seconds to run. He told
pl'ostifJ.es'
W;\~h~c: b~
her that if he could catch her after the
30-second lead, she'd be arrested. If
enough of us complain about Sperm
Whale, we can get the police department to do something. Maybe we can
get him off morality. If you've had
experiences with him, or with other
police - good. bad or indifferent. we
want to hear about them. Contact us at
Stiletto at 588-9037.
467
inac:tivitvagain.
In October 1989, a diverse group of
current and fonner sex workers and
their friends - including some who
had been involved in the earlier
PONYs -decided to form PONY (&
..lot
~
~~
~.
~,,,
~
0"
pro'\\\
• again ..
01 Now York (poNY) is
0
• • .. ll8ain. PONY,
FRIENDS) to get the group going
again. In a statement outlining their
history. the group predicts that the
19908 will be the "Decade of the Sex
Worker."The group's statement says
that they want to "extend (and defend)
women's sexual freedom. Whether
we have sex for reproduction, recreation or financial remuneration is our
own business, not the government's!
A new threat to our sexual freedom,
civil liberties and physical safety AIDS, and the way local and national
governments are handling it - has also
helped to inspire PONY's rebirth."
Their Statement of Purpose begins:
"PONY (& FRIENDS) is a formal
organization of sex workers and sex
workers' rights advocates, dedicated
to the decriminalization and deregulation of prostitution. PONY calls
for an end to all street sweeps, to the
use of entrapment and other forms of
police violence, illegality or harassment in the enforcement of existing
prostitution laws. PONY is dedicated
to raising public awareness that sex is
an essential, nourishing part of life
and that commercial sex is of benefit
to humanity."
Chris Bearchell
in the mld-1970s,
. :»Ilhuw8' groups around
. nnl belna fonned, has
lnd Ilf()und and around.
',,)Hod afler 8 couple of
&hen revived in 1979 by
lrlll de 18 Cruz. PONY
IICtlvc In the summer
N",w York cops intenof working girls in
IlIllllAIum. During preparaDemocratic Party conmore than doubled,
hl,her. and one girl
herMit Inl.O the East River
WA!lIIO desperate to
··Uco.
urkod with supporters to
monitor the cops' behav8VMI And 10 discourage
A"d lIIeglll busts which
rnollt ItITClltB of prostiYork. Luter that year the
illflux of x-rated film
m()dels and peep. while the "moral
tnd Women Against
Ifloo iO mllkc life
th" IXlUl,lo who worked in
ur the "ex lrade. But
MfIlllldly 11'1)"00 Into
Hassle Free Clinic
for birth control and sexually transmitted diseases
556 Church Street, at Wellesley, 2nd floor, Suite 2
Women's Clinic phone:
922-0566
hours: Mon, Wed, Fri -10 am to 3 pm
Tues & Thurs - 4 pm to 8 pm
by appointment
STD drop-in (no appointment necessary)
Tues & Thurs - 4 pm to 6 pm
Men's Clinic phone:
922-0603
hours: Mon & Wed - 4 pm 10 9 pm
Tues & Thurs -10 am to 3 pm
Fri-4pm tp7pm
Sat-lOam to2pm
no appointment necessary
Free and confidential health-care services.
. Hassle Free does anonymous HIV testing.
468
Living well is the best revenge
{-'
L'
'
..
I've been a whore for the last ten
years and it has taken just about that
long to get used to the looks that
people in "straight" society give me.
You know the
looks I mean if
you've ever worked
the streets for a
living. Little bleached
blond bitches from
Rosedale, walking
down the street with
their boyfriends,
giggling and pointing.
(J charge more than
dinner and a few
drinks, honey.)
Drugstore clerks that
sell you safes and
judgeyou in a glance.
(They should be glad
I'm using them.)
Blue-haired grandmas
and housewives who
stare at you while you
eat dinner. (Look Martha, they eat
fooll!.)
People who are not connected with
the business or know very little about
it show their ignorance on a regular
basis. Over the most human
functions. Eating in a restaurant,
buying groceries on your way home,
going to a movie before work. (Yes
indeed, whores go to movies!) Some
dates and people I meet are amazed
that I have hobbies and interests and a
life of my own.
My one true passion is motor- .
cycling. Nothing gives me the same
kind of thrill as being in the wind and
sailing down the highway. One of the
strangest looks I ever got came to me
. this summer when I was riding my
. bike downtown. I pulled up to a red
light and looked over to notice one of
Summer survival skills mean
dodging the do-gooders
Leaning against the old brick of
Grosvenor Street, trying to enjoy the
last of the summer's warmth and
higher prices amidst the social
workers and tricks. Both in their
own uniforms, silently frightened of
one another. However, the social
workers prevail, and the tricks leave
the strip with their tails between
their legs, and virgin billfolds.
I try to make some sort of contact
with the john across the street as the
Covenant House motor home draws
slowly up and eases into the parking
space directly in front of me.
Covenant House, Salvation Army,
Inner City Youth, On the Street, and
fl/StileUo
a host of other social service weirdo
helping hands. One guy, a cast-off,
ftred, I believe, from the Sally Ann,
drives up, me thinking him a leather
fag, and announces himself a saint
who pulls us lost little creatures
from this dirty boulevard and up to
this twisted man's closeted heaven.
Later, getting coffee at the
Covenant House van after an insane
argument about pedophilia with the
staff, I sit and watch a self-proclaimed ex-hustler talk about the horribleness of drugs to an on-van young
woman social worker who is
obviously nodding out onjunk, but
!'nevertheless is in full agreement
my recent dates parked beside me. I
smiled. He recognized me. His mouth
dropped open. (You could almost
hear him thinking, "She does something besides suck cocks.")
I pulled away. Cars honked
at him to go. The shock on
some people's faces is
incredible.
Try to understand the
poor man's confusion. It
was during working hours
and there I was riding
around having a good time
like other people. It's like
those school exercises you
did when you were small.
One of these things does
not belong: warm summer
night, well-tuned bike, full
tank of gas, whore not
working. (You know which
one the guy in the car
chose.)
Anyway, the point is, the
looks never stop. I don't know if they
ever will. But after ten years, they get
a little easier to take. And sometimes
they are even amusing. When you're
pulling away from a green light on a
warm summer night
J.
with this sad boy's tired rhetoric.
And so, pissed off, I leave the
do-gooder haven and plunge into the
sea of social workers starving the
street. To my ftnal, broke, junk-sick
dismay, I see a hustler I know
chatting up two Salvation Army
zealots about how he doesn't work
any more, how he's back in school,
how terrible the streets are ..• foaming at the mouth, trying so hard to
impress and be accepted by people
who don't have an ounce of respect
for him. Come to think of it, I don't
have a hell of a lot of respect for him . . .
now, either.
.
Time to call it quits for tonighL
No money out here anyway.
Julian
469
The story of a wild west ho
Tho lifo and times of Sarah Jane Creech Orchard by Ryan Hotchkiss
. IIPf 'ho women In
IIfttUlk)()n WeslOms?
flliliilfllj~ Ii
wNriflg. calico-print
.. IIhotlUn,IUfrOunded
or IIl1rufty chUdton. Or, the
l!()hool teacher who
I
/iih~,Iff,
Iy. we would got a
tother kind ot woman.
Uk)"fI d()on new open they
h,ullhlng, drinking with
. .ked out In
M"ln iUld _oqulna.
What. a sight she must have been
with her stylish silk gowns, snowy
egret plumbs in her hair, a marabou
feather boa around her shoulders and
a flashy necklace made of gold coins
around her neck. She wore her glossy
black hair piled high on her head,
with soft ringlets framing her
features. Although she stood no more
than five feet, she was one hundred
pounds of kinetic
Business
'n.ttlle
hero Uic
nt. and my
olalms that.
mldo hot.
!My /lOOmed to
fmwh bcu.or
. ..()txi slrls.
was so
Russel, the queen of the stage, over
from London, England, to perform at
the Kingston theat.re.
When Sadie learned that Kingston
had no church, she sent ber girls out
to take up a collection in the saloons
and stores. Gamblers threw in ruby
stick pins and snake-eye rings, miners
tossed in bags of gold dust, her girls
put in brooches and earrings and
Sadie herself donated her favourite
diamond necklace. She raised $1,500
- enough to build a small stone
church. Unfortunately for Sadie, she
had built the church because she
yeamed for some of that good-girl
status and respectability. So when the
church was built, Sadie and her girls
got all dressed up to attend a Sunday
service. They were given the cold
shoulder by the good girls of
Kingston. Their husbands, who were
Sadie's customers, gave her nothing
more than knowing smiles. She strode
out of the church, never to return.
When the gold dried up in
. "~-_.:. \ Kingston, Sadie moved
, :;. on to Hillsboro where she
marriedJamesW.
Orchard, who was
president of the Mountain
Pride Stagecoach Line.
The line had 65 horses,
one express wagon and
two of the fmest coaches
money could buy.
While she was married, Sadie took a leave
of absence from the life
and became a stagecoach
driver. The route that she
drove was through the
Sierras Diablo, or devil
mountains (so named
because they were
savagely rugged). She
then built a flfSt-class
restaurant called the
Ocean Grove HoteL
The Mountain Pride
prospered until the mines of Hillsboro
dried up. Sadie refused to help her
husband pay his debts and so he was
forced to sell the stagecoach line.
Shortly after that, she threw him out
for drinking too much.
Sadie's hotel did quite well for a
while. Since Hillsboro was the county
seat of Sierra County trials were held
there. Judges, lawyers and witnesses
were her patrons. Sadie kept a diary
with notes about all the important
men who were her customers. In it .
she recorded their pet names, their
comings and goings and their p\oLS
s
,.
~·A
470
Advice your mother never gave you
abc opened two
mUUIOIII. one at each end of town. She
IpCrll her days at the Ocean Grove
Hotel and her nights dressed up in her
finest, playing madam at her bordellos. Her houses were frequented by
the most powerful men in those parts.
Hillsboro's fortunes took a tum for
the worse in 1914, with a flood that
was quickly followed by an influenza
epidemic, then a drought and then the
depression.
During the epidemic, Sadie closed
her hotel and tended to the sick. She
cooked and cleaned house for stricken
families; she found homes for orphans
and laid out their parents. She supported whole families and took the
children's coffins to the graveyard
herself. She even cut up her own
dresses to line the children's coffins.
Eventually, the town was abandoned by all but a few. Sadie sold the
Ocean Grove to her cook, Tom Ying,
and the girls left
Although she died penniless at
close to 90 and was buried in a pauper's
grave, I bet she had a lot of fme
memories to look back on.
This information came from an essay
by Mary' n Rosson, entitled "A good
old gal" in the paperback, The
Women who made the West,
published by Avon Books, 1980.
History Repeats Itself
The strippers were
burned this time
In 1984, in Toronto, Theatre du
P'Ut Bonheur set out to raise
money for the bum unit at
Wellesley Hospital. The benefit, a
performance of striptease, raised
$2,000. However, the hospital
executive rejected the donation.
The hospital refused to take the
strippers' dirty money.
R.H.
8/Stiletto
Dear Miss Trix:
The other day, my girlfriend and I
were doing a double. While we were
doing the old two-girl show, the client
produced a 14" cucumber from the
inside right breast pocket of his suit
jacket
How he ever kept it hidden, I'll
never know. Luckily my girlfriend
was horny at the time and has a great
sense of humour, and so she allowed
him to fuck her with a third of it
However. when he asked me.
"Would you like some, baby?" I
replied, in a rather cold tone. "I'm not
into vegetables." I don't put anything
in my cunt at work that doesn't come
in a few minutes. He accepted my
refusal without pressing the point
Later. my girlfriend said I should
have handled the situation more
delicately. She recommended that I
say, "I'm sorry baby, but I prefer the
real thing." What do you think?
Signed,
Cool as a cucumber
Dear Cool:
While I can understand your
resentment toward an act not
previously agreed upon, I must agree
with your girlfriend. Even though you
must have wanted to take that 14"
cucumber and shove it right down his
throat. A trick into such a massproduced. boring fantasy is sure to
respond to a little superficial ego
stroking. "Stroke it right and he'll
come faster," is Miss Trix motto.
Your girlfriend sounds like one smart
whore.
In the event that he left the
offending member behind. you could
also prepare a delicious. nutritious
salad. Just peel, seed and slice the
little beastie (this should provide
some vicarious satisfaction) and grate
it fine or coarse, as you prefer. Mix in
about a cup of yogurt. a handful of
dill (fresh, of course!) and a pinch of
cumin (isn't cooking sensual?). A half
a cup of walnuts is optional but
provides that little unexpected
something extra.
Your ever-versatile.
MissTrix
Yeast? Feed your
pussy well
A few years back - it must have
been the summer of 1985 - I was
plagued by that annoying imbalance
in the system that is commonly called
yeast When the body's friendly
bacteria become outnumbered by the
nasty bacteria there's an overgrowth
of microscopic parasites that wiggle
their tails and make you itchy and
drippy down there. The sticky
discharge is white or pale yellow and
rather embarrassing.
Like many of my friends, I experimented with diet. eliminating one
food after another. I've used creams
and tablets from the establishment
medical profession. All to no avail.
The only time the symptoms
cleared up from diet was when I was
on a total fast They came right back
with a vengeance as soon as I
resumed eating. The gooey creams,
purple paint and crumbly insertable
tablets didn't work on a permanent
basis either.
Finally. one day in a small-town
health food store, I stumbled upon a
cure. The brand name of the product I
found is Fern Flora. The pretty box
contains five packets of powdered
lactobacillus acidopbilus organisms,
which is basically the same thing
that's in yogurt
The instructions on the back of the
box tell you to dissolve one fivegram packet in a quart of lukewarm
water for use as a hygienic douche.
This stuff works like magic. The
discharge is gone right away and
stays away for a long time.
The information inside the box tells
you how the natural vaginal flora may
be destroyed by antibiotics,
anti-infective agents and oral
..
471
-P-,
l~.f
contraceptives.
Not all health food stores carry this
product but the larger ones may be
open to ordering it
FemFiora really works. No fuss.
No mess. No bother. No embairnssing
trips to .~~ physician. I keep. it
stOcked iIi my fridge.
heads are almost paying the tricks
instead of the other way around. If we
could just keep the prices up and have
even the smallest amount of patience,
boys, we'd be making a hell of a lot
more money and have better control
over our business.
Let's stop kissing ass to those
tightwads - unless the price is right
Julian
L.
How to battle the
bargain hunters
A good place to stay away from in the
winter is boystown. Not a fticking
cent to be made. When you do snag a
trick long enough to talk to him, he'll
insult the hell out of you with offers
of tiny amounts of money. They
figure you're cold and desperate so
they can get bargain rates.
Makes me absolutely livid. Boys
out there will go for 30 or 40 bucks.
And so many of the guys in NOV( are
are undercutting - some of the fuck-
Two local politcians tied for the first of our dubious honours. Mayor Art Egg leton '.
and June Rowlands, chair of the Police Commission, were lUst back from
lobbying against us in Ottawa In early November when they got the chance to
slander pros and our customers In print. Rowlands claimed that the cost of
treating prostitutes for sexually transmitted diseases In Metro Is $12 million or
more a year. Even the health department Is trying to figure out where she got that
information. Would you believe she made It up? send us your suggestions for
next issue's incredible jerk award.
"communicating for the purpose of prostitution"
Subscribe to Toronto's sharpest new magazine.
And help us keep on communicating.
------------~--------
....
------------------------
Enclosed is a cheque or money order, payable to Stiletto.
Check one:
_ individual subscriber, at $ 10 for six issues
_ supporting subScriber, at $ 20 for six issues
_ agency subscription, at $ 30 for six issues
_I am also enclosing a donation of $._ __
·Name: ______~__------------------------------------------Address: __...-....-.____- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - City/province/postal code: ______________________________
Telephone:-------------~----------------------
472
ustlce Committee reviews the effects
of the "communicating" law
In December 1985 parliament passed
Bill C-49 which amended Section
195.1 of the Criminal Code of Canada, making it illegal "to communicate
with or to stop a person in a public
place [including a car] for the purpose
of obtaining the services of a prostitute." Bill C-49 also said that this law
had to be reviewed after three years.
Late in November 1989, the
Canadian Association of Chief of
Police appeared before the Justice
Committee, which is reviewing the
law, with the request that Parliament
make "communicating" a much
heavier bust. Now it is only a
summary conviction offence, but if
the cops get their way it will become
indictable. The chiefs said they need
the law changed so they can
photograph and fingerprint the girls
and guys they are ru:resting before
they are convicted because so many
are failing to appear in c~urt.
They are also afraid that the
Supreme Court will strike down
Volume I, I~sue 1 -January, 1990
Is the newsletter of
the Canadian Organization forthe
Rights of Prostitutes - CORP
Signed articles represent the
. opinions of the authors only.
Edltor- Ryan Hotchkiss
Production - Chris Bearchell and
Ryan Hotchkiss, with the help of
Edna Barker, Danny Cockerline,
Gwendolyn, Valerie Scott,lrit Shimrat
Contributing to this IssueChris Bearchell, Danny Cockerline,
Alexandre Highcrest, Ryan
Hotchkiss, J., Julian, L., Valerie Scott
Address- Box 1143, Station F,
Toronto, ON M4Y 2T8
Phone-(416) 964-0150, 588-9037
Call for advertising rates.
Deadline for Volume I, Issue 2 is.
March 1, 1990.
to/Stiletto
I
Section 195.1 because it goes against
the Charter of Rights guarantee of
free speech.
But the cops aren't the only ones to
have their say. The Canadian Organization for the Rights of Prostitutes
(CORP) also appeared before the
review committee and submitted a
written brief. In the brief CORP
repeated all those things that we've
been saying about the communicating
law all along.
We always said that C-49 would
not stop street prostitution - and it
hasn't. CORP has been saying that the
communicating law would adversely
affect prostitutes - and it has. (The
fewer customers there are, as a result
of crackdowns, the less choosy people
working the streets can afford to be
and the less bargaining power they
have.) We said that the new law
would be costly to enforce and that it
would mean less police attention to
serious problems - which has
happened. And we maintained that
the communicating law is a violation
of human rights - which it is. When
CORP representatives Valerie Scott;
Ryan Hotchkiss and Alexandre
Highcrest appeared before the
committee, they repeated it all in
person, too.
As well as hearing from interested
parties, the committee hired researchers in Halifax, Montreal, Toronto,
Calgary and Vancouver to take an indepth look at of the effects of the new
law. This research was published in
Street Prostitution: Assessing the
impact ofthe law.
The research on Toronto covers
1986 and 1987 and contains such
information as: how many prostitutes
and customers were busted for communicating (5,368), how many of the
charges were against customers (45%
or 2,415), how many of the pros were
guys (5% or 147), how many were
girls (95% or 2,805), how many customers were sentenced to custody
{2% or 48) and how many of the working girls and guys who were charged
did time in jail (23 % or 678).
The reports also talk about how the
cops made the busts. In Toronto they
hired 90 more cops, and an unspecified number of new clerks to keep up
with the paper work. This part of the
cost of enforcing the communicating
law totaled at least $4,500,000 in
1988 alone. The police in all the cities
that were surveyed regularly organized large-scale sweeps. In Toronto
these are conducted by the morality
bureau - using cops from a number of
divisions - with male cops posing as
customers or female cops as prostitutes. It seems that they never bust the
customers of male prostitutes; could it
be that there are no cops out there
willing to pose as hustlers?
Working girls responded with
strategies of their own, according to
the Toronto report. Some women
would ask a potential customer to
touch their breasts before discussing
business - or to show them his cock.
Reports from boystown suggest that
guys are asking potential customers to
kiss them before discussing business.
Some girls worked in groups of two,
three or four to increase the chance of
recognizing undercover cops. Some
would wait until the customer talked
about business details [lISt, or wait
until they were in the privacy of a
hotel room to discuss acts and prices;
others stuck to dates with regulars.
Some customers responded to the
heat by asking the women they
approached if they were cops and
some working girls asked men that
question, although the report says the
cops are not above lying in order to
entrap someone.
CORP's solution to this horrendous
abuse of human rights and waste of
tax money is the decriminalization of
prostitution As our brief says, "Decriminalization will satisfy the ratepayers' groups who want prostitution
off residential streets, and it will
fy the majority of Canadians who
prefer justice to moralism. It will
the shameful situation wherein
sands of Canadians go
jobless, while our
millions of dollars
that does nothing
people for ttyinSIO
Chris
AJI.". . . . . . . ..
473
and sharing needles." Most prostitutes
knew this and were acting
accordingly: a Western Canada study
of prostitutes found that 80% used
condoms, a much higher percentage
than any other group in society. We
were sick of hearing the social
workers taking credit for being front
the hundreds of prostitutes who were
line
workers in the battle against
using condoms, and who were quite
AIDS
when prostitutes weren't just
capable of saving ourselves.
telling
people to have safe sex. We
1986 was also the year that the
were
showmg
them.
Prostitutes' Safe Sex Project (PSSP)
PSSP
produced
safe sex pamphlets,
got its' start. Fed
all the bad
cards, radio ads and buttons ("I'm a
Safe Sex Slut/Pro/Ho,"
"Safe Sex - Make It
Your Business") to show
that prostitutes were not
. part of the problem, we
~ were part of the solution.
~~ Since 1986 we have fought
""7~ ~. to have people give
. ~~...". prostitutes credit for the
,.,.,.,.....
~...,.. ,.".;o.~~..
' " work we do, and we have
.~
fought against the police
and others who use AIDS
as an excuse to violate our
rights.
In 1988 we received
money from the City of
Toronto and the Province
of Ontario to help
prostitutes educate our
customers about AIDS. So
press, and all the bad laws, members
how is PSSP different from the
of the Canadian Organization for the
traditional social service agencies?
Rights of Prostitutes, all of whom are
Stay tuned to the next issue to fmd out.
prostitutes, decided enough is enough.
"AIDS is not spread by prostitution,"
Danny Cockerline
we
"It is
unsafe sex
Who are those whores with the free
condoms, anyway?
TIll1 Hlory in the Globe and Mail
IHHlOunced that the Federal
( lovcmment was planning a study
I hili would prove that prostitutes were
~pre"ding AIDS from gay men and
IV,drug users to the heterosexual
JlIIJluluUon. The year was
II)K6.
It was the year that the
llloolu in Canada began
hlamlng prostitutes for
hclt'lrosexual AIDS, despite
Iho !'net that not a single
Ctmndian had gouen AIDS
Iroll) u prostitute. It was
!lIND the year that the police,
IIlwuyslooking for an
!1i1CUSO to bust our asses,
bogun arguing that they
t1QQded to stop prostitution
in order to stop AIDS. The
rtliddents blamed prostitutes
fOf lipreading AIDS at the
Iitlmc time they were
whining about prostitutes
littering condoms all over.
And the social workers
Jumped on the bandwagon (or is it the
.rttvy tmin?) too. "Yes," they said,
iiprostltUtes are spreading AIDS, but
\,t you give us more money we'll save
Ihom.o, They never bothered to defend
~-,
Working Girl
OLDEST
PROFESSION
TIMES
1\ magazine published by
the Prosmutes Association
of South Australia
A newsletter published by
90's Ladies and Friends, a group
; working for the repeal of laws
. against prostitutes.
'A8A
PO lox 7072, Hutt Street
Ad.'alde 5000
Mtltrilia
OPT, 1125 - 9th Street, Sacramento,
: CA,,95814 USA
474
This is Exhibit
t\
referred to in the affidavit of
_ _~-, - o-.:~ , - , ~,-,- r'......"e~S-=---:::oco=--\--,-\---,----_ _ _ _sworn
this
ct2>
day of
N\o.cc.n
2007
before me,
spoc.ca
';
.'
Decriminalizing Sexwork
._-----_._--
-
..-
-
",.
I _ _ii._~
.....
'..
.
.
' ~
'.
'
'.
..
,
Facts about Sex work in Canada:
!\II-- Prostitution is legal in Canada. However,
Canadian laws make certain aspects of
prostitution illegal, estrange sex workers,
and make it almost unfeasible for sex
workers to work safely.
~ According
to Toronto Police Sex Crimes
Unit, there are 4 to 5 assaults against sex
workers everyday in this city.
Legalization:
Legalization treats prostitution as a vice that
must be heavily contained and controlled.
Under legalization systems, such as that in
Nevada, USA:
.. Typically, the brothel holds 50% of the
pro's income. The government takes
another 25%. For their work, sex pro's
are lucky to take home 25% of their
earnings.
~ Sex pro's cannot work independently,
!!lIo- Sex pro's do not have the right to refuse
Decriminalization:
Decriminalization views prostitution as a legitimate and necessary business. Its implementation entails removing prostitution related offences from the Canadian Criminal
Code for adults involved in this profession.
With decriminalized prostitution, such as
that in New South Wales, Australia:
to perform certain kinds of sex or to
refuse clients they are. not comfortable
with. As well, brothel shifts are often 12
hours long.
.. Sex pro's may operate freely, without the
threat of criminal charges and/or the
state seizing their assets.
instead they are forced to work for
brothels. Brothel owners are able to
set all the terms of work. Pro's may not
move to any other brothel. This leaves
pro's very vulnerable to exploitation.
!\II-- According to Statistics Canada, sex
workers have the highest murder rate
than any other occupation. Murder is
not inherent to sex work, rather laws
such as the communicating law have
driven street-based sex workers to more
remote and dangerous areas, putting
their well being at risk to avoid arrest.
~ About 40% of all sex workers are women
of colour, whereas 85% of sex workers
who get jail sentences are women of
colour.
!\II-- There are currently' hundreds of sex
workers missing across Canada, most of
whom are Aboriginal women.
.. Contrary to popular belief that many sex
workers have HIVIAIDS, the University
of Victoria School of Nursing found that
sex workers only make up 1% of the
population with HIV!AIDS in Canada.
... While brothels officially state that
they insist on condom use, the pro's
in legal brothels tell a very different
tale. Clients often have the power to
insist on condom-free sex. If a pro does
contract an STI from coercive unsafe sex,
her license is revoked and a new pro is
brought in.
!!lIo- To obtain work at a brothel, pro's
must register at the police station,
be photographed, fingerprinted, and
provide very personal information about
themselves to the police.
.. Sex pro's can open their own operations. Individual sex pro's do not require
a license and can decide if they wish to
work for a brothel.
")
!>o- Sex workers and brothels are subject to
similar restrictions as other businesses.
If a brothel is a nuisance to its neighbors,
it can be shut down. Street sex pro's
may not work within 200 meters of a
place of worship, school, or a hospital.
!!lIo- Sex pro's pay income taxes at the same
rate as any other small business owner.
I>-- Anyone abusing a sex pro is charged
with the appropriate offence, whether it
be assault, sexual assault, forcible con-
~
Sign Sex Professio'nals of Canada's
petition that is calling for the
decriminalization of all aspects of
prostitution. It can be found at
www.spoc.ca
~
Write to your local MP, and
tell them that yqu want to see
prostitution decriminalized. To
find out more, go to www.spoc.ca.
finement, etc.
~
1)0;-
It is rare for a sex pro to be assaulted
and when it does occur, the police and
courts take it very seriously, unlike the
current situation in Canada.
Currently, the procuring law makes it
almost impossible for a sex worker to
live a normal life, as we are legally unable to make purchases, give gifts, pay
rent, or support anyone. Friends, family,
spouses and roommates can be charged
with "living on the avails of prostitution':
If a sex worker is raising a child, the child
could be charged with living on the
avails if she/he is over the age of 12!
I)o;-It is illegal for sex pro's to live with or
even be "habitually" in someone's company.lt is also illegal for sex pro's to
share finances with anyone else including her own family. Decriminalization
ends this.
~
No government or religion in history
(including the most repressive) have
ever been able to eradicate our noble
profession. Ultimately, money and sex
are more powerful than governments
and/or religions.
~. Speak
out against jokes,
judgments, or comments that
degrade sex workers.
... When using the services of a sex
worker, be a good date. For tips,
go to www.spoc.ca
... Be kind to your local sex workers.
Say hello, smrle.or give them a nice
comment~
1JIo-. Always
remember that sex
workers are every day human
beings, and have a lot to offer to
society.
I>It is beyond time for the Canadian federal
government to decriminalize our profession.
Get involved. To find out more,
go to www.spoc.ca or call
A16-364-5603.
478
. This is Exhibit
I
referred to in the affidavit of
__\JJ.J=cN~~-,-e-,-r-'-'1~-"'--_S=.-=CJJ-"-\-t-'--'-_ _ _ _swom before me,
this a~
day of
N\o.rc.'n
2007
A Commissioner etc ...
479
Help US· end violence
against women in the
sex trade and their
defacto death penalty
...
~
Call the PM and the Minister of Justice AND
DEMAND DECRIMINALIZATION OF THE
SEX PROFESSION
1 613 9924211
Minister ~f Justice #: 1 613 992 4621
Pm OFFICE #:
.,
SPOC (Sex Professionals of Canada): 416364 5603, fax# 416
3647678
[email protected]
Spokes' person:
-,
Valerie Scott
480
;;,,-,
.
~
This is Exhibit
referred to in the affidavit of
_S~c~O,--,-\:----,\-,----_ _ _sworn before me,
_ _0--=--=-0\.:;...:Q"-'..,--'..\Q-",--,
this
L;
d.'6
day of~(}fCh 2007
http://www.spoc.calindex.html
Sex Professionals of Canada
481
Sex Professionals of Canada
Mission:
Home
Meeting
Information
Upcoming Events
Past Events
SP~C History
News
',f
,-
I:,
"
Decriminalization
vs. Legalization
Media
Decriminalization
Signatures
Be a Good Date
Bad Client List
Undesirable
Clients
Resources
SP~C T-Shirts
Links
Contact Us
SPOC is a political and social group whose main objective is to work
toward the decriminalization of sex work through political activism,
community building and public awareness. SPOC is a grassroots,
volunteer organization made up of current sex workers, former sex
workers and their allies.
Goals:
Enhance the quality of life of sex workers by providing resources and
referrals to sex worker-friendly agencies, through the promotion of
workplace safety, and by engaging in political advocacy.
Decrease the isolation experienced by many sex workers by organizing
sex worker-friendly social events and functions.
Protect the safety of sex workers by maintaining a "bad date" list so
that sex workers can communicate information about violent and
dangerous clients to each other.
Raise awareness about the need for decriminalization of sex work
through speaks, interviews, workshops, and activism. SPOC
distinguishes between the decriminalization of sex work, which we
support, and the legalization of sex work, which is problematic for sex
workers.
Media and Public Awareness:
!,
SPOC members are available for interviews with the media and
students and to lead workshops and public awareness speaks with
agencies, universities, colleges, and conferences. If you are a member
of the media, a school, or agency that would like to invite SPOC to
speak with you, please do not hesitate to contact one of the SPOC
spokespeople.
Membership:
If you are a current sex worker, former sex worker, or an ally
interested working towards the decriminalization of sex work while
having fun and connecting with others, please do not hesitate to
contact us. SPOC encourages membership from all communities,
sexual orientations, genders and gender orientations, including people
of color, immigrants, transgenderedjtranssexuals, gays, lesbians, and
bisexuals.
Donations:
of 1
As a not-for-profit organization, SPOC relies on the generous support
of our community and supporters. SPOC gratefuly accepts donations to
assist us in continuina our work. If vou would like to make a donation. 1:22 AM
482
http://www.spoc.ca/bad.html
BAD CAll LIST
If you've been raped, assaulted and/or experienced theft from ANYONE around this
business call, or e-mail us and tell us what happened! We ask for details about the
incident only, You don't have to give us ANY information about yourself. THIS IS A
LIST OF REPORTS GIVEN ANONYMOUSLY. THIS LIST IS ONLY INTENDED TO HELP
SEX PROFESSIONALS (Sex Pros) HELP OTHER Pros AVOID DANGEROUS
SITUATIONS. WE CANNOT GUARANTEE THAT THIS INFO IS TRUTHFUL. Our e-mail is
[email protected] or call us at 416-364-5603, collect is ok, too, if you are a sex pro. AS
SOON AS WE GET THE INFO WE CAN HAVE IT UP AND RUNNING ON OUR SITE
WITHIN 10 TO 15 MINUTES. IF YOU PREFER YOUR BAD DATE INFO NOT BE
PUBLISHED ON THIS OR ANY OTHER SITE, IT WILL NOT BE.
From reading this page, some may get the impression that many clients of sex
professionals are bad. Please be aware that bad & undesirable clients are the
exception not the rule. They represent a tiny percentage. The vast majority of clients
are good and decent men. They are fathers, husbands, brothers, sons etc. and are
nothing like the men listed below .
.'
\
.
WANTED
~
,
1. ;
Police are looking for a man they believe forced a 16 year-old girl-against her will, who
he met at a TIC station, to become a sex worker.
DESCRIPTION: Kevin Anthony Douglas, Black, 6', 1621bs, short brown hair, brown eyes.
Stutters. May be armed.
483
If you know where he is call 416-808-5504
ATTEMPTED DROWNING
October 12th, 2006
Pro was forced into a car against her will. Date drove her down to the Credit Valley River
where he threatened to drown her. Pro managed to escape.
DESCRIPTION: male, Black, 25 or 26, 5 foot 5, overwieght, brown eyes, black hairshaved but growing it out.
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: Red car, license plate number AWKB 503.
ASSAULT {CHOKING
October 2006
Male is EXTREMLY violent. One Pro was choked and on a separate occasion a Pro was
physically assaulted.
DESCRIPTION: male, White, 6 feet, 300lbs, very large build but not fat, big hands, 40 50 years old. Brown hair, thick eye glasses, bad body odor.
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: Driving 1990's white pick up truck. Homemade wooded
unpainted box on back of truck.
LOCATION: Durham Region.
BAD DATE ARRESTED
Saturday September 30th, 2006
The Special Victims Unit has charged a Toronto man in relation to a sexual assault of a
street sex worker. It is alleged that the Date solicited the sexual services of a Pro, then
directed the Pro to a nearby secluded outdoor location where he commended a series of
violent sexual acts against the victim before stealing the Pro's property and fleeing the
scene. The Date has since been charged with Threatening Bodily Harm, Assault, Sexual
Assault Causing Bodily Harm, Threatening Death, Forcible Confinement, and Robbery.
DESCRIPTION: Salvatore Olindo, age 28
Anyone with further information regarding Olindo, or his activities is urged to
call Det. Wendy Leaver at the Special Victims Unit 416-456-7259
484
UPDATE ON CHISTOPHER DORSEY
'.;
!f "'
Christopher Dorsey, an alleged serial rapist who is known to lock up sex pro's (one pro
was locked up for 3 days) and sexually assault them will be facing trial as well as a
dangerous offender status (meaning life in jail) on November 27 2006. Last year about 8
sex workers from the Parkdale area reported him to the Special Victims Unit. We will
keep you updated on the proceedings.
ASSAULT
485
Tuesday October 3rd 2006
Date will pull up to a sex pro while they're working and, while he's in the car, lean over to
make small talk (ie asking her how she is, what her name is), when the pro leans
towards the passenger side to talk with him he punches them in the face and drives off.
One pro has already had her nose broken by this guy and at least 2 other sex pro's have
also been assaulted by this guy in the same manner.
DESCRIPTION: male, 25 - 30 yrs, East Indian, brown eyes, short black hair, moustache
with a bit of a goatee.
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: Red/maroon 4 door midsized car.
LOCATION: Sherbourne Street and Dundas St. East
ASSAULT {CHOKING
Saturday September 9th 2006 at 3:00pm
Pro was approached by a man asking for a date even though she wasn't working Pro
agreed anyways. He (the date) led the Pro to a stairwell, the door locking behind them.
Pro tried to run upstairs but the Date grabbed and choked her until she became
unconscious. When the Pro came to she was on her stomach and he was sodomizing her.
She was completely pinned down. She started screaming. He told her he was going to
smash her head into the cement and kill her if she screamed again. She screamed
anyway. He choked her again. She went unconscious again. When she reawaken she
asked him to use a condom. She managed to get one arm free, fought him off and ran up
the stairs and exited the stairwell. He went after her and grabbed her hair. Then he just
walked away-went up Stafford to King street.
DESCRIPTION: Black male, mid to late 20's, 5'8, medium build, brown eyes with long
eyelashes, black hair (shaved not bald), no facial hair. Was wearing beige dress pants,
button-up short sleeved striped dress shirt and black Bandelero knapsack.
LOCATION: Wellington and Stafford -staircase of condo.
RAPE AT GUNPOINT - 5TH REPORT!
Friday September 8th 2006 at 7:10 pm
This is the fifth report about this man. Date picks up young women as well as
transgendered women working as sex pro's. He often lures them with crack. He then
rapes them at gunpoint before robbing them. Claims to be a pimp.
DESCRIPTION: Possible name Ricky Downey, Male, Bi-racial, late 30's - 40's, 5"9 5"10, stocky build, brown eyes, shaved hair.
LOCATION: Housing on Jarvis and Queen St. East
486
IMPERSONATING A POLICE OFFICER/ASSAULT
Thursday September 29th 2006
Pro was working and approached a man in a car who she at first assumed to be a police
officer. When the Pro asked him if he was a police officer he said "yes, you must get in
the car" and flashed a Metro Police pin as well as casually showed her a badge. He then
drove her around asking her to pOint out other Sex Pro's and drug users. Feeling almost
certain that this man was NOT a police officer, Pro asked to be let out of the car. The
man pulled up behind a school and said that he wasn't sure whether he would take her to
police headquarters unless she "could figure something out". Pro tried leaving but the
man started grabbing at her. Pro punched him and managed to leave safely. Pro is
worried he may be targeting other Sex Pro's.
DESCRIPTION: 25-30 yrs., 6 feet tall with a big build, short hair, wore a baseball cap.
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: 4 door silver car
PICK UP LOCATION: Dawn St. Weston Road across from the GO station.
Aug 2006360 Rydell Ave
t,
He met sex pro outside of the apt. building, said he has to get something out of his
locker.
As soon as they where in the locker room, he brutally forced her into locker # 168 which
he
locked. He then left. She managed to escape.
Description
Light complexion, Black. Well dressed, short black buzz cut hair,
clean shaven. No accent. Cell # is 647-882-9444
Uses different names but SPOC is fairly certain his first name is Kevin. We know he is
serial
at this as he called the same woman a couple of weeks later. Because she had a different
ad, he was unaware it was the same woman that he had assaulted.
(This time he requested an in-call.) Needless to say she did not book him.
REMOVED CONDOM
Toronto Mid August, 2006 - Incall
The client saw a woman new to the industry & was very rough with her. Sex Pro now has
bruises on her arms & legs. Removed condom when she was unable to see. Sex Pro is
now under going testing.
Client is Guyanese or Middle Eastern. Between 39 & 44 years old. About 6 feet tall, 210
to 220 Ibs. Short brown hair, clean shaven, black framed glasses. May have a black left
487
eye as agency security punched him while he was running away. Says his name
is n Colin. " Drives a black Honda Civic car, possibly a 2002 model. His phone #
is, 416-882-1365. He has seen other escorts without any untoward incident.
July 20th 2006
This man likes to pick up sex workers and then beat them. He is also a control freak.
DESCRIPTION: Male/white, 40 years of age, chubby
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: drives an old white pick-up truck with scrape metal in back of
truck.
ASSAULT/CHOAKING
July 2006
Pro was approached by a male. They shared a
"crack hit". She got up to leave and male grabbed her from behind by his forearm and
choked her. Friend standing close by, saved her. Male left.
DESCRIPTION: Male/White, 40's, chubby, often rides a bike and is from Newfoundland.
LOCATION: Pembroke and Queen St.
Man Arrested for Pimping Minor
July 12, 2006
A 28 year old Brampton man, Kevin Rico Roach (pictured) a.k.a Jason, Gamz or Rico,
has been arrested after it was reported to the Toronto Police Special Victims Unit that he
was pimping out a 14 year old girl and forcing her to work on Jarvis Street and Gerrard
Street. He has since been charged with Assault, Forcible Confinement, Sexual
Exploitation, Living off the Avails of Prostitution (under 18 with violence), and Exercising
Control. Police believe that he may have forced other young women to work for him,
anyone with information about the suspect is asked to contact Detective Eduardo Dizon
at (416) 808-7468 or Crime Stoppers anonymously at (416) 222-TIPS (8477).
ASSAULT End of June/early July
Pro was approached by male who waved her over. As she approached him, he suckered
punched" her in the left cheek knocking her to the ground.
DESCRIPTION: Male/White, clean cut, "straight laced looking" European accent, tattoos
488
on wrists (front) short or bald hair.
LOCATION: Sherbourne Street/Allen Gardens
Mid July 2006 REMOVES CONDOM
Happened in Toronto Ontario.
NAME: Says it is Jerry
DESCRIPTION: White 5' 8 " about 55 years old, some grey hair. Has an accent. Says
he's Polish & from Oakville, Onto Medium build with a "big gut".
Blathers on about how sex pro" needs big connections in this business" implying that he
has them. Is into vocal.
REMOVES CON oo fill when sex pro is unable to see.
At this time SPOC is confirming his phone number.
As of Sunday September 17th 2006, Mark McCaskill has been announced by
Ottawa Police as deceased. The investigation into his death was closed several
days later.
WARNING!
As of July 13 / 06, SPOC has received evidence, that McCaskill is now threatening to,
"physically hurt" sex professionals.
(Above photo Feb.2006)
(Below photo NEW July 2006)
489
SPOC has received reports about McCaskill since 2003. We now receive about 2 reports
monthly, from women in Ontario, Quebec & Manitoba. He promises large amounts of $
for a weekend or overnight at his place in Ottawa. When the woman arrives, he either
doesn't answer the door or doesn't have any money, leaving the sex professional empty
handed.
This is how he gets his kicks.
Has devious ways of convincing women to travel all the way to Ottawa at our own
expense. As a " measure of trust ", he'll e-mail you.hisdriver.slicense and other ID
numbers. We doubt those numbers are real.
Doesn't want to use condoms either.
He fantasizes that he either works for the federal government, is a landlord or a doctor.
He is none of those.
He lives in a shabby basement apt., and we suspect, is living on disability support
cheques.
He tells women he's living in that apt because his, " house burnt down" and is " waiting
while a new one is built". Our info, from several women is that his address is 514A Lyon
St., North. ( Perhaps it should be Lying Street, as that's what he does.)
McCaskill has hatred for sex professionals and seems to blame us for everything wrong in
his life.
We've received several reports that he is now targeting women new to this business.
Know this. Any personal info he finds out about you, he will use to try and scare you. As
of July 6/ 06, he has been insulting & threatened 3 SPOC members, from informing the
police that one of us is, " running a common bawdy house", to putting a virus into this
website in an attempt to destroy it.
In most cities, large & small, the police have more important things to deal with than a
sex professional receiving the occasional gentleman at her apartment.
490
SPOC thanks all sex professionals for sending in info about Mark, and other bad &
undesirable clients. Please keep that info coming. It helps us all.
SEXUAL ASSAULTIROBBERY
Monday July 3rd 2006 at 2:00am
A male sex worker was with a date who became physically abusive. The date punched
the sex worker in the arms, pushed him to the ground and stole his cell phone. The date
also performed oral sex on the sex worker against his will.
DESCRIPTION: Male, Olive skinned, 25 - 30 yrs, dark brown eyes, dark brown hair
pulled back into a pony tail.
LOCATION: Church and Maitland
DIDN'T WANT TO PAY {VERBALLY ABUSIVE
June 11th 2006 between 3-4 pm
Date pulled up to Pro while she was working and asked how she was doing. After getting
food from Burger King they went to 47 Brookefield Apt. 2 (Ecuhomes Housing). Date
said that he's a tow truck driver and had lots of tools in his place. One of the tools in
particular was a circular saw that was sitting by the bed (Pro asked that it be put away).
Date went into the bathroom and came out wearing a gold colored cock-ring. When Pro
asked for partial payment after providing a bit (3/4), of service the Date became verbally
abusive saying, "You bitches, as soon as I give you money you'll take off..." After some
more arguing, the Date paid Pro $20.00 and sensing that the Date might become
physically dangerous the Pro quickly left.
DESCRIPTION: Isaac, white male, between 40 - 44 years of age, 5'10 - 5' 11, tanned,
stalky fit build (military-like), blue eyes, dark blond hair, clean-shaven, was wearing a
blue buttoned down shirt and khakilbeige pants.
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: Blue van, license plate number AHYM 947
LOCATION: 47 Brookefield Apartment #2 (King and Jameson)
Happened early June I 2006
Sherbourne & Gerrard Streets, about 1 a.m.
491
Says his name is " Bobby"
Black / South Asian
No accent
22 to 24 years old
5, 9" to 5, 10" tall, slim build. 150 to 160 Ibs.
Well groomed, clean shaven. no glasses or jewelry, nice car
Pro took him to her place, he was sexually rough and when Pro wasn't able to see,
removed the condom during sex.
Pro is now being treated for gonorrhea & Chlamydia. She is awaiting test results for HIV
& syphilis.
ASSAULT/MAY HAVE A WEAPON
Friday May 26, 2006 at lO:45pm
Date picked up pro on the street and drove to an ally behind the Chocolate Lofts (condo
building). He got into the back of his van and took his clothes off. Pro went to get a
condom out of her purse. Date didn't want to use a condom, he was also drunk and
started to argue with her. He grabbed the Pro by her hair and yanked her; he then
bashed her head into the side of his van (on the inside). He then grabbed the Pro's
overcoat and pulled it over her head. He then grabbed her throat and started choking
her. He pushed her to the floor of the van, called her a whore, bitch, and told her he
would kill her. He told the Pro to lie still and fuck him. Pro tried to find the door release,
but couldn't. Date told her there wasn't one and that he had a knife and started to grope
around for something. That's when the Pro reached o"ver. and grabbed him and hit him in
the nuts - she pulled him to the ground and kicked him. She kicked the door. Pro found
the door release and managed to get it open and jump out of the car. She grabbed his
pants so that he couldn't chase after her and she was able to run to safety.
DESCRIPTION: White male, 50ish, 5'6-5'8, medium bUild, might have blue eyes, short
straight gray/white hair parted at the side, clean shaven, wore jeans and a short sleeved
buttoned shirt with a T-shirt underneath.
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: Silver/gray mini van (beige carpet with tow rows of captain
seats and a back area with the seats down - you can lie down in the back) license plate
number is AllH574
LOCATION: Strachan & Queen St. West
RAPE AT GUNPOINT-Fourth Report!!! May 6, 2006
Fourth report against this man. Date picks up women and transwomen sex workers, gives
them crack and rapes them at gunpoint. He is also known to rob pro's.
DESCRIPTION: Male, bi racial, dark skin, brown eyes, shaved head, stocky bUild, 5"9 5"10, in his late 30's to early 40's. Last name may be Downey.
492
LOCATION: Building on Queen St. at Jarvis
ASSAULT WITH WEAPON May 4th, 2006
While on date, pro was threatened by the date with a knife and hit on the head with a
baseball bat. Date was also drunk.
DESCRIPTION: Male, East Indian, 5"9, Brown eyes, short black wavy hair, moustache
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: drove a four-door sedan, burgundy color.
LOCATION: Jarvis and Wellesley Streets.
REMOVED CONDOM
Client asked SP to his home in Scarborough, made SP stay in living room. SP put condom
on then client complained, said it was too small and why did SP not bring bigger ones.
When SP turned around, client removed condom and began having sex with her. SP tried
to stop him. Client got forceful. SP got away. Client apologized, asked about her fantasies
with other women. Clients wife walked in. Wife grabbed SP stuff. SP was able to get
away.
DESCRIPTION: Male, black, 5"10, goatee, mustache 48 years old. Female>black, heavy
set, late 40's.
LOCATION: MacCowan and Sheppard.
DID NOT PAY Mid February Toronto
Client contacted SP and claimed he was a "RICH SURGEON" from NY, looking to be a
sugar daddy. Also claimed to own a big agency in NY and wanted to hire SP. Paid for their
first one hour appointment, but mislead SP into thinking he was interested in her for his
agency and being her sugar daddy he short changed her on their second appointment,
and did not pay on their third appointment. Beware of this tactic.
REFUSED TO PAY
January 18th 2006 at 11:00pm
Date was surprised when pro asked for payment, he didn't pay her but did give her
money for a cab drive home. The Date was intoxicated/high at the time and was acting
creepy.
493
DESCRIPTION: Goes by the name Byron, white, male, 34 years old, 5'9",160 Ibs, short
brown hair, clean shaven, pinstripe dress pants and a dress shirt.
LOCATION: Royal Hotel (Front & York St.)
VIOLENT POSSIBLY ARMED "JOHN" (Posted Jan 27th /06)
This "john" is violent (chokes and punches in the face), makes verbal death
threats and CLAIMS to be ARMED WITH A HANDGUN. ("indicated but not seen.")
Male, Mulato, 22-25 yrs, possible name or alias of "JAM" or "JAMA" 6'1-2", thin but
muscular build, dark brown hair. (u/k style as he had a hoodie on), dark brn moustache
and goatee, wearing beige pants, blk hooded sweater, white low cut running shoes with
red
trim.
The suspect wears black gloves and keeps them on during the sexual acts. He also
wears a condom and takes it with him when he leaves. He demanded oral, followed by
vaginal sex but tells the victim not to look at him. He said he prefers blond girls
although the victim in our case is black. During sex he tells the victim to say she is a "14
year old
virgin." There is no vehicle known to be associated with this male.
The victim was picked up in the Lansdowne and Dupont area.
SEXUAL ASSAULT {THREATS WITH A WEAPON
January 3rd, 2006 at 3:00am
Date approached Pro while walking on the street, he asked her if she was working, she
said yes and he asked her if she'd come to his place. Once they got to his place, the date
grabbed a knife off a bookshelf and threatened Pro with it saying, "I don't get paid till
Wednesday but I want some lip service now!" Pro was forced to provide oral sex as the
Date filmed the entire act on his cell phone. Afterwards the Pro was able to leave without
any payment.
DESCRIPTION: Male, white, about 6 feet tall, 200 Ibs, short blondish hair, good looking,
fit and clean cut.
LOCATION: Apartment building beside the IGA on King St. at either Gwynne or Elm Grove
Ave. Apartment number 12
ASSAULT
End of November 2005
494
Pro picked up date who was on foot. He wanted a blow job but when the pro told him he
would have to pay up front $40.00 the date said 'no' and that he would pay her after. Pro
insisted on being paid up front, an argument about payment ensued and the date started
to strangle pro. Pro proceeded to hit him with the butt of her lighter and made enough
noise that people came to her aid and the date ran off.
DESCRIPTION:
Date was on foot. White, male, blond hair, clean shaven, 250 -300Ibs, about 6'2
LOCATION: Behind 313 Sherbourne St. Near Allan Gardens
November 21, 2005
Pro picked up date, while in the vehicle the date offered her a cheese sandwich and made
small talk. After a bit the date pulled out and Xact-o knife and threatened pro. Pro was
raped but managed to get him to wear a condom.
DESCRIPTION: Male, Middle Eastern, late 20's to early 30's, olive skin, dark brown eyes,
clean shaven, wore all black including a black toque and fake leather security boots.
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: Dark blue (almost black) automatic, with the license plate
number 979 NH*
LOCATION: Marjorie Ave and Gerrard Street
ASSAULT
Early November 2005
Pro met date on the street. Once she was in the vehicle he assaulted her and tried to
prevent her from leaving.
DESCRIPTION: Male, Portuguese, partially bald, late 20's, short with a stocky build,
brown eyes, no moustache, used the name John.
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: White 4 door car with primer on the bottom.
LOCATION: Lansdowne & Dupont
ASSAULT WITH A WEAPON
October 25th, 2005
495
Pro met with a date at a hotel. The date offered her a beer (which was opened), she
politely declined. He then asked if she'd like a smoke, which she also declined, then the
date asked her if she wanted to do some lines of blow (cocaine), again the pro said 'no'.
After that the date got furious with her refusals and went into the night stand and
grabbed a screwdriver, pro and date fought for a bit til she could finally get away. The
pro's driver came in and cleaned up the mess. Pro alerts us that he is NUTS!
DESCRIPTION: Goes by the name Russ Holt, cell number 974-3063
LOCATION: West Harbour Inn room 108
REFUSED TO WEAR A CONDOM/ASSAULT
September 2005 in the afternoon
Pro picked up date on the street. They went back to the dates' apartment where he paid
her $30.00. When date refused wearing a condom he asked for his money back. He
grabbed the pro by her throat, hurting her vocal cords. Pro started screaming and
managed to run out the door.
DESCRIPTION: White, male, 55 - 65 years old, 5'8, with a skinny build. Eye colour may
be blue, hair is gray/white and is balding on top, no beard or moustache.
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: Grayish blue K car
LOCATION: Kennedy/St. Clair, apartment on the 6th floor
ASSAULT
Saturday September 10, 2005
Pro saw a date who was very insulting, during the date told her that she didn't know how
to use her hand and started calling her names. After the date the pro tried to put on her
maxi pad only to have the date restrain her arm and hand movements. Date also told her
that he is going to kill people.
DESCRIPTION: Mr. Handcock
LOCATION: Behind the Eaton Centre
ASSAULT /ABDUCTION
End of summer 2005
496
After picking up pro, date stole her cell phone and locked her inside of his car. He then
proceeded to drive north on the DVP where he raped and sodomized the pro before
bringing her back downtown and dropping her off without any payment.
DESCRIPTION: Male, black, dressed in all black, wore a baseball cap.
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: Black 4-door car
LOCATION: Queen st & Parliament
VIOLENT ROBBERY
Sunday August 7, 2005 5:00am
Pro was approached by a man, they agreed on a service and a price. The man led pro
into a laneway where their was a second man waiting for them. Pro get nervous and told
them she was leaving. That's when both men severley beat her and stole all her
belongings.
DESCRIPTION:
First man: Black, dark skin, 18-21 years old, short afro, 5"7 - 5"8, slim, brown eyes,
wore all black clothing.
Second man: Black, in his 20's, shaved hair, 5"10, slim, brown eyes, wore all black
clothing.
LOCATION: Ontario St. and Gerrard St. East.
ROBBERY/ASSAULT
Friday July 22, 2005
An outdoor sex pro met a seemingly nice date at Church and Weston Road. Tehy agreed
on a price and he paid her in advance. Once in the vehicle the date demanded her purse
and started roughing her up, when she wouldn't leave without her wallet the date started
pulling her hair while driving on the highway, pro started screaming and the date started
pulling her hair harder. Pro does not remember how she escaped. Date also told her that
he'd "get all her friends."
DESCRIPTION: Male, 20 - 30 yrs, white (probably Italian or Hispanic), good looking, bald,
scar on arm or face.
VEHICLE: White cube van, green lettering of business on side (starts with 'M'), hoses and
machinary in back of van.
Thursday, July 21, 2005 after midnight
An outdoor sex worker and trick agreed that oral sex would be provided, and then the
497
trick raped the sex worker. The sex worker later contacted Toronto's Sex Crimes Unit.
DESCRIPTION: Male, white, 27 - 30yrs, 6'2, 2701bs, large build but not fat, short black
hair, glasses, clean shaven, wore black clothes.
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: Brown or tan jeep, soft-top, roll bars, standard transmission,
very clean interior.
EXTREMLEY VIOLENT ATTACK
Thursday June 9, 2005 4:30am
Date picked up pro, agreed on a fee and they went off together. Then date decided that
he was not going to pay her. He started hitting and kicking the sex pro on her head and
arms, punching her everywhere. He ripped her clothes off her body and raped her. He
forced a glass pop bottle up her vagina. When the bottle broke, he pushed it up her anus.
He returned her to where he picked her up and yelled at her to get out of the car. She
could not move. He got out, came around to her .side of the car and grabbed her hair,
pulling her out of the car. She was naked. He threw her clothes out of the door and drove
off. An ambulance came by shortly and took her to emergency. She received numerous
stitches.
DESCRIPTION: White male, in his 20's, 6 feet tall, attractive with blond hair, cut short on
the sides and spikey on top. He had brown eyes and a noticeable scar on one eyebrow.
He had a strong build (looks like he works out). He was wearing running shoes, a white
tank top, and blue jeans.
VEHICLE: Navy blue Monte Carlo-look-a-Iike
LOCATION: Parliament and Dundas
WORRISOME
Wednesday June 1, 2005
Pro was picked up by date that wanted vaginal sex. He paid the pro $150.00. She was
negotiating the amount from the roadside. Then the date tried to rush her into the car,
stating that he didn't want to talk because of the 'heat' in the area.
DESCRIPTION: Muscular black male, 5'10-6' feet tall, had an Afro, goatee and a diamond
earring in his right ear. He wore a baseball cap tilted to one side. His name is believed to
be Hugh.
VEHICLE: Old dark blue Valiant with sloping back windows and New York plates. The
radio dial was set to 93.5
LOCATION: Carlton and Jarvis
ASSAULT
Monday May 30, 2005
A male has been attacking pro's. He negotiates for sex, gets pro into a truck and then
chokes them and doesn't pay.
498
DESCRIPTION: Middle aged white male with red hair. He is chubby and wears glasses.
VEHICLE: White Truck, partial license plate number 197 *NE
LOCATION: Sherbourne and Carlton
ASSAULT AND ROBBERY
Sunday May 29, 2005
Pro went on a date, while she was on the date the guy grabbed her by the throat and
stole her money.
DESCRIPTION: East Indian male with badly dyed blond hair.
VEHICLE: Black Escort 1988-1989 model. partial license plate number is ACC Z**
LOCATION: Kingston Road and Kitchener
DANGER
Friday May 27, 2005
An indoor pro has advised us that there is a photographer that emails indoor pro's and
askes if they would like to do a photo-shoot with him. She says that he is dangerous and
no one should contact him.
DESCRIPTION: Martin Photographer
DEMANDED MONEY BACK
Tuesday May24, 2005 at 9:15pm
Pro met date at a hotel on Front Street. She was paid $300.00 for oral sex. Pro
performed oral sex for 45 minutes but he could not orgasm. When the hour ended, date
asked for his money back.
DESCRIPTION: Male, white, obese covered with psoriasis, smells of tar based skin cream.
LOCATION: Hotel on Front Street.
ASSAULT
May 18,2005
Pro negotiated a price of $40.00 but the date didn't want to pay up. They argued and she
decided to leave. The date kicked her out of the car before she could grab her coat and
belongings.
DESCRIPTION: Light-skinned black male, 20-22yrs, with a slim build, his name was
Maurice
VEHICLE: Gray or Silver SUV
LOCATION: Regent Park
499
IMPORTANT!! Coming from Wendy Leaver of the Sex Crimes Unit in Toronto:
I am looking for info from anyone that may have come in contact with the following
individual:
I have had two calls on the Bad Date Line from two females and one was an escort and I
believe the second worked on the street. They describe being taken to an address in the
west end of the city and being sexually assaulted and also shown a Dungeon area in the
basement of the house that was filled with heavy equipment. One victim states she saw
circular saws and the second victim states that she saw a guillotine and other
paraphernalia hanging from the ceiling. They were threatened by him and both expressed
fear that he knew where they lived. It appears this male is involved in S&M. The second
victim believes she was drugged and woke up the next day with bruises and cuts to her
body.
He is described by both as Male/White, 30--40 years of age, balding, a goatee 5'10 - 6',
approx 200 Ibs, very articulate, smooth talker and one described him initially as "very
kind". Both stated that he was gay and disliked women.
Our concern is the danger to the women that this person is targeting and also the
equipment in his basement and what it is used for.
I can do nothing on this case without a complainant.
If anyone has had any involvement with this male, please contact me and all information
is confidential.
~
..
"
[email protected] or my phone # 416-808-7446
Thanks ....
TORONTO, Nov,22. 2004
We are sorry to report that Christopher David Dorsey is on the prowl again in the (mostly
downtown area of Toronto.) Again he has viciously beaten and raped another sex pro.
Info we have on Dorsey is that he is a crack addict and frequents downtown shelters
/soup kitchens, etc. However, he is cunning and when has access to third party info,
(address, phone, credit card #, etc.) does not hesitate to use it. His photo is a little
further down on this page.
TORONTO, June 10 to 18 I 04 {No, this is not a typo.}
NAME: Manuel RACE: Portuguese
AGE: 58
HEIGHT: 6' 3" WEIGHT: 210-220
EYE COLOUR: blue
DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: "Old ugly jail tattoos on his right arm ( may say Manuel )."
LOCATION: Leafs Bar at Dufferin and Brock streets
WHAT HAPPENED: He locked her in a rented room under the bar. She was repeatedly
raped, sodomized and physically abused during that time.
500
TORONTO, Wed, June 9/04
ALERT! ALL SEX PROS Toronto police released info about a particularly dangerous client
today. So far, the assaults have happened in the downtown area. He calls and books but
uses a third party or a third party's info to get the sex pro to come to the location where
he forcibly confines them for hours. He is violent and forces women to perform various
sexual acts against their will. Each of his victims managed to escape when the suspect
was distracted. (This suggests to SPOC that he may be on drugs, perhaps crack.)
He has assaulted at least 3 sex pro's and one woman not in this business. Has been
previously arrested.
NAME: Christopher David Dorsey
DESCRIPTION: 47 years old, 5'7', 167 Ibs. with short black hair. Mayor may not have a
short beard.
RACE: Black
TATTOO: Although this is not mentioned in the press release, we have learned that he
has a tattoo of a boxer's glove on his arm. We don't know where on his arm or which arm
it's on.
There is a province-wide warrant for his arrest for the following:
Sexual Assault x2, Forcible Confinement, Assault, Threaten Death, Threaten Bodily Harm,
and Fail to Comply Recognizance.
Anyone with info about Dorsey can call SPOC at 416-364-5603 or Detective Glenn Gray,
55 Division, at 416-808-5504.
You do not have to give any info about yourself to SPOC, if you prefer not to.
501
Photo of CHRISTOPHER DAVID DORSEY
Toronto, the week of the 21st of June
GERMAIN HOTEL
An escort was forcibly held against her will and raped by two clients.
Hotel security diffused the situation.
DESCRIPTION: Two Black males, one dark complexion, the other lighter complexion.
One is from Bermuda.
Clients were doing cocaine.
SPOC has more info on this however escort has requested that we do not publish it
at this time.
TORONTO, Mon. Feb 9/2004 Street Date.
Client took sex pro into an alley. They were there for about 30 seconds when client
began hitting sex pro in the head. She screamed and ran out to the street. He
followed her and looked a little menacing until he noticed a spoc member standing
about 3 meters away with her large German Shepherd Dog. (spoc member, who is
502
also a sex pro, walks her dog in the area frequently). Spoc member told him/Do not
hit her". He mumbled something and immediately got into his vehicle and drove off.
Sex pro is ok.
DESCRIPTION: About 5,10", medium build, clean shaven, wearing black leather coat
and light coloured pants.
RACE: Possibly Middle Eastern, Spoke with an accent.
VEHICLE: Black SUV type.
PARTIAL LICENSE PLATE #: A***-200.
LOCATION: Ontario street, just south of Gerrard street.
TIME: 4: 25 pm.
TORONTO, Tues, Jan 27/2004 Harassment/Waste of time & Threatening
PRINCE HOTEL York Mills & Don Mills
Escort agency call for 2 women. Clients said there were 2 of them. Escorts called to
confirm they had the $500 dollar fee in cash. The 2 escorts arrived and there were 3
men. The clients had $395 and then pleaded poverty while also being rude when the
escorts refused to have sex with them for $395.
Escorts asked for a credit card to make up the difference and dates said they didn't
have one and didn't need one to check into hotel because "they knew someone who
worked at the hotel".
Clients used all manner of deceitful ways to try and dupe escorts into believing they
would get the agreed upon fee.
Escorts demanded and received the $395 for their wasted time. Remember this was
an agency call and as the escorts explained to the dates the 2 women were still
responsible for the agency fees.
After wasting 1 and a half hours, and paying the agency fees, the 2 women ended up
with $40 dollars each.
After the escorts left, one of them received" about 30 threatening calls" from the
clients on her cell phone. She was told that they would find her, that she had better
leave the city, change her phone number, etc.
DESCRIPTION: Escort confirmed that the last name registered with the desk is
TURNER. First name may be Paul. All 3 of them are WHITE.
"Paul" is: 5"10, early 40's, dirty blonde hair, slim build.
Other 2: in their early 30's, 5"8, dirty blonde hair, blue eyes, medium build.
Dark hair, blue eyes.
This occurred between: 4 & 6 am, Jan 27/2004.
TORONTO, Sat, Nov 29/2003
A Trans woman was sexually assaulted by a client matching the description of
Cassandra Do's murderer and a 1997 assault (see below for description). It was an
incall at her place in the Parkdale area at about 2 am. He got her number from her
ad in an EYE magazine edition from last August. She hadn't advertised since August.
At the beginning of the date he seemed fine, though he wasn't interested in foreplay.
He then got rougher and began choking her. She managed to push him off of her
and she got up to get something from behind the curtains. He lunged at her. She
503
then told him that the camera on her dresser was recording everything. He stopped
immediately and apologized. He got dressed and left but not before stealing a
substantial amount of money from her purse. An interesting detail is that he
removed the condom he was wearing and took it with him. Also he was completely
shaven. Not a hair on his body. The sex pro has his work number and has given it,
along with this info to police.
TORONTO, Mon, Oct, 20{2003
We've received info that a sex pro who works in a building not far from where
Mayling worked, saw a date (a couple of days after Mayling's body was found), that
matches the suspect police are looking for, for a 1997 assault, Cassandra Do's
murder and possibly Mayling's murder. He came to her apt and said he wanted to
dominate her. She refused, he asked her repeatedly and began to get aggressive.
She went into her bedroom, shutting the door and pretended to be talking to another
person. The guy got worried and fled. She's ok. The cell phone number he called her
from to set up the date is 416-717-1634.
DESCRIPTION: Male Black, about 6' 3", between 30 and 40 years old, about 230 lb.
with short dark hair and some facial stubble.
Fri,Oct,24/2003 We've received conflicting info about this persons cell #. Seems he
may be calling from a pager. However the info we have is that it is a cell #. We at
spoc called his # Oct 21/2003. He returned our call. We were noncommittal, to say
the least. We've received info from police that this cell is a genuine. Our info, from
the police, via Maggie's is that the # is in fact registered wit.h a cell provider and not
a pay as you go. If you have info about this bad date, feel free to call us or you can
call, Craig Samson, the cops at (homicide) at 416-808-7414 x,104.
TORONTO, Thus,Oct,16{2003
Metro police have released info about another incall sex pro who was found
murdered in her apt, Mon, Oct, 13. The body of Lien Pham whose working names
were May-ling and/or Kim, was found at her apt at 24 Mabelle Ave, Apt # 1817.
(Islington Ave. / Dundas St. W. area) Mayling, like Cassandra Do was also strangled
to death. She was 39 years old. There are disturbing similarities between the 2 sex
pro's deaths. Both were Asian, both were strangled, both were incalls. We've also
received info that both were found dead in their bathtubs. Also neither women's apt
building had video surveillance in the lobbies. Sounds like he did his homework. At
this time, police are looking for the same person who killed Cassandra Do. The
suspect's DESCRIPTION is Black male, about 6'3", muscular build, may wear glasses.
If you have seen any bad dates meeting this description, give us a call or e-mail. You
do not have to give us ANY info about yourself if you don't want to.
We have just learned that within the past year, there have been at least 2
strangulation murders of sex pro's in the Hamilton, Ontario area. Police are now
looking at those cases to see if there are links to the Toronto murders. We hope to
have more detailed info on that soon.
504
~.'
"
TORONTO A description of Cassandra Do's murderer became available via metro
Toronto police Sat, Oct 3,2003. It's a little sketchy, but it's all we have to go on at
this time. ( Ms Do was found strangled to death in her Gloucester St. apt Aug, 26.
2003. She was transgendered and worked via the ads in Toronto's NOW and EYE
weekly newspapers as well as the Internet.) Ms Do's working name was Tula. In
1997 another sex pro, a female, was viciously assaulted by the same guy. (The
police have matched the DNA). She managed to escape alive, and reported the
assault to police. Both sex pro's worked via the ads. Both incidents were incalls. We
highly suspect there were more assaults that may have not been reported to police.
DESCRIPTION, Black male, about 6-foot-3", 230 pounds and may wear glasses. In
1997 his head was closely shaved and he had no facial hair.
THE GLOBEANDMAIL reported Mon, Oct 6/2003 that very soon after the
description of Cassandra Do's killer had been reported on CFTO TV, four sex pro's
contacted the station to report that they too, had been beaten and sexually attacked
by a guy meeting that description. We entirely understand why so many sex pro's
did not report these assaults to Toronto police, a few of us too, have been told by
metro's "finest" (after we've been assaulted on the job), that they won't help us
because we're "outside of the law". All sex pro's should be careful, but especially
incall girls. If you do not have anyone else to call, please call us, at least to let us
know when a potential date is coming over or to let us know where and what time
you are going to meet a date. Don't worry, unless metro police raid us AND use
Saudi Arabian torture techniques, they won't be getting any info from us. We are
working girls too. Our phone # is 416-364-5603 or e-mail [email protected]
EDMONTON, ALBERTA Since 1997
8 sex pros have turned up dead. It seems like Edmonton police don't even want to
get it. We at SPOC get the feeling that these cops believe that no one in their
families would ever be a whore, so what's the point of spending their "precious"
resources on finding a dead hookers' murderer ( let alone preventing it.) If these
"wonderful, morally, clean" cops ever looked at their own families' history they would
see that there are probably 1 or 2 hookers in their family closet. The murdered
women's names are: SYLVIA BALLANTYNE, 40, DEBBIE LAKE, 28, MELLISSA MUNCH,
20, MONIQUE PITRE, 30, EDNA BERNARD, 28, KELLY REILLY, 28, JOYCE HEWITI,22,
CARA KING,22. Now (Nov 18, 2003), we learn that Alberta police (RCMP Project
Care) are going back to look at 80 murders of our colleagues that have happened in
that province within the last decade. Thanks, but this PR exercise tells us way too
little, toooooo late. Thanks for the earnest looking TV press conference, anyway.
®
ALERT!!! HAMILTON, ONTARIO There's a guy who has seen many women in the
Hamilton area. He is HIV positive and knows it. The latest info we have on him is
that he does not specifically target sex pros. But 18 women he has seen in the
505
Hamilton area have reported that they are now HIV positive. His real name is
JOHNSON AZIGA. His birthdate is 1956-06-06. He is BLACK with short hair,
medium build. Hamilton police are concerned he may have seen women in Sault Ste.
Marie, Toronto, Brantford and Peel Region.
Anyone who may have seen him is urged to call Det. Troy Ashbaugh of the Sexual
Assault Unit at 905-540-5545 or Det. Kelly Rees of the Divisional Detective Office at
905-546-3818.
506
This is Exhibit
\\,
referred to in the affidavit of
\)O-.\er;~ S:o\-\this
cil6
day of \'tI~c'u 2007
A Commissioner etc ...
sworn before me,
How to prevent more deaths
Get sex workout of the Criminal Code
the right to form professional
associations and to join unions,
and to be regulated no more nor
no less than any other business
should reasonably expect - and
with input from workers themselves.
Decriminalization is riot to be
confused with legalization. Legalization approaches prostitution as
a vice that needs to be contairied
and controlled. Legalization means
that prostittiti6n dill ortlydccur in
specific locations, in constrained
circumstances. All other forms.of
prostitution remain illegal.
AmSterdam's red light district is
perhaps the most famous example
of a legalization approach. Sex .
pros must register at the police
Debi Bro.ck
& Valerie Scott
.t :~e~~~s~;~ ~ee?
found dead m thIS CIty m
the last two months. Cassandra Do's case is well known
among the gay and trans communities. Do; 33, was our neighbour,
and died in her home on Gloucester St as a result ofmanllal stFan~
gulation. Do advertised on the.
Internet and a local weekly newspaper; she was very selective
about her customers, yet 'it is virtually certain that she died at the·
hands of one .of them.
LienPham) 39, wa~ less well
known to the queer community.
She too worked out of her home,
in the west end of the city. Lien
was a widow, a mother and regularly sent mOney to her family in
Viet Nam. Like Do, she was manually strangled and her budy was
found in heT'bathtub. The similarities indicate thiit the perpetrator
may have been the same for both
murders. For those of us who live
in Toronto, these killings recall the .
triple murder of working prostituteson Victoria Day 1996, and the
more recent revelations of the
murder of dozens of sex workers in
Alberta and British Columbia.
Despite the fact that they are
thatametdt,jC:--J:1'MI'·lSJ 1 a J £Ot·!UHWRR·
K I'LL ERL I'NKS
t
he Oct 13 murder of Lien Pham,
aka May-ling, came just days
. :beforea meeting for sex Workers
to discuss the news that the Aull 25
killing of Cassandra Do had been linked
by DNA to an assault in 1997.
While police haVe nqt conclusively
linked the two deaths, there are many
simi/aritiell. Both Do and Pham worked
from their homes, both advertised their
services in weekly papers. both promoted themselves as Asian and both
died from strangulation. Do was also
·
I
t ranssexua
.
Kyle Scanlon, who coordinates the
trans program at the 5t~.Commumty
.
"";.. ..",,,:.h·.-~·\: ~.~..' ",~
":.,
station and be photographed, fingerprinted and give personal
information about themselves.
How they work, including their
rate of pay, is controlled in many
ways by brothel owners.
We advocate the approach
taken by the state of New South
Wales, Australia, the Only place in
the world which has implemented
decriminalization. While still not
a paradise for sex pros, taking prostitution out of criminal law has not
coincidentally corresponded to
a decrease in reported violence
towards these sex workers ..
These three approaches .....:.
criminalization, decriminalization
and legalization ,.- may all be
unpalatable to those people who
believe that all prostitution entails
sexual exploitation, and that the
only solution is the elimination of
prostitutionitself. This is not a
realistlcsohitlon. Norwill.it
address the conditions in which
Cassandra Do, Lien Pham and
dozens of other sex workers hilVe·
Centre, says the first step to creating the stock police answer; 'We can't reveal
more protection for sex workers is that yet,''' Scanlon says •. 1t also gave the
decriminalizing the job.
.
women an opportunity to discuss strate·
"It's the stigma about sex work that
gies amongst-themselves.
creates the climate that aliows this to
"Sex Workers have to have pretty
happen. Sex work Inherently onto itself keen survival·skill.s; and'moSt of them
isn't a dangerous job," says Scanlon. If have had at leallt one bad experience.
it were decriminalized, ''tricks wouldn't There was some discussion of using
feel it is okay to assault them or rob
more extensive pairings or team stratethem because they Would know that sex gies, including phoning other people and
workers WOUld. go safely to the pOlice."
letting them know what was going on
More than 50 woman attended the
with dates - who they were, when they
meeting, Which. was an opportunity for
were, where they were and phone num·
them to ventthei;' frustrations and con·
bers so they could be followed up on."
cerns about the investigations and murHoward Shulman. poollQjnator antre
d.
,'.5.·,·,·..Q...• Il·.,·...'+ :.'.~.'io;'·;I''''e:.'.tn;.;;~;..··;,..,..<''''i.:.::m''···"''.·says
.
' . ......,....... :.,-.,.;:"",r; .• :'·: . .,:.""...., ""...
.... rtVE>''' ...... ·there
ers.
"The frustP8tion"fo'h'mahY'pe6'j)leinisa :i-Ise in the number of assaults
.
was to keep c~mingup against . agalnsttranssexual and transgendered
I.,.. "
'thefo:Jn;
.-'. , "
.,.,,''''
•..
E·.·
...
r' -
died in recerit years.
Debi Brock, an associate professor
in the Department Of Sociology at
York University. is co-auth(J1; ofthe
forthcomingboo/C, Whore;' A Life
And Politics, wjthValerie Scott,
spokesperson for Sex Professtonals
OlCanacia.
people, Including dellths. Reasons
include the possible backlash against
recent court decisions arid debate
.
·arouild same-sex marriage ..
"It's seen as queers;are demanding
too muoh soweneedttipUtthem back
in lihe;"saysShulman.i'Bllshing .an.d
as~ults are a way of puttingtliem badk~
in line."
The queer community' traditionally
underreports bashing and harassment,
which Shulman says ranges from verbal
slurs, to phYSical or sexual. assaults, and
in some case·seveJi de;i:h.He estimates
that O~ly one in seven bashings is
reported.
-
Tanya Gu./Ilvcr
, :1
titutf
o asl .
their
about how violence against them
can be prevented. Yet virtually
every sex workers' rights organization around the world advocates
the same position: the decriminalization of prostitution. In Canada,
decriminalization entails removing pr,ostitution-related legislation
from the Criminal Code Of
Canada:
While prostitution itself is riot
a criminal offence, any attempt to
provide sexual services can result
in criminal charges; The two main
statutes used to limit the provision
of paid sexualsetvices are communication fof'the purpose of.
prostitution and keepingor.being
an inmate ofa conunon bawdy ..
house. They are also responsible
for preventing prostitutes from
working safely. Communication
laws are aimed primarily at street
level prostitution. They prevent
sex workers from working together
and limit their ability to share
important - perhaps lifesaving information.
At the same time. the bawdyhouse laws p~t prostitutes working indoors at risk. In order to prevent detection. they are mor-e
likely to work in isolation and keep
a low profile to avoid the police
radar. Together. these laws mark
sex workers as.'disposable people.
making them, easy targets for '.
predators.
.
Prostitution is a job. not a.
lifestyle. What-prostitutes need are
safe. non-coerciv.e, work environments. just like other working
people should have the right to
expect. Sex workers should have
LIVING with
HIV?
MAKING. DECISION.S7
NEED MORE INFORMATION?
Consider these' options:
LiViNG WITH MEDS
Workshop 1: GETTING STARTED
Workshop 2: MAKING IT WORK
•
•
•
•
Free one-day workshops for people living with HIVIAIDS
Up-to-date information on drug treatments
Next available date: Making It WOrk December 05
Presented by Dr. David Fletcher of the Maple Leaf Medical Clinic
and colleagues, incollaboration with Toronto PWA Foundation.
To register, call Toronto PWA
Foundation at (416) 506-1400x26
. ...~
Ask your doctor or treatment counsellor for more inform~tion
on GETTING STARTED and MAKING HWORK.
Supported by'an unrestricted educational grant from GlaxoSmithKline in partnership with Shire BioChem.
PEoht WlTHAIDS
foun4.ttiDn
509
.~.
This is Rxhihit
L
\Jo.lQ.\\ e
SeO\-\-
r~ferred to in the affidavit of
--~~~~=-~~--------
this d.~
day of
~
N\()(C.5)
2007
..
sworn before me,
511
When-
Y'GUI .•• ~t.'lluay,
September 21, 2005
ts Church
St. East
Dundas and Sherbourne·
'...w..l,-,",UI.J
call Wendy at
21-8668
512
This is Exhibit
N\
referred to in the affidavit of
_~\).e,o-.=~""""Qf''-.li-",e~c;",,-C:=O'-L~--,--\--,-----_ _ _ _sworn before me,
this
&. b
day of
~
\\f\(N'ch
.-
~~u~
2007
lOner etc ...
513
514
activism
rostitutes' rights activist Valerie Scott claims to have
opened the first massage parlour in a gay bathhouse in
Halifax when she was "not quite old enough legally" but
had ill that said she was. "I went to this place, and it was just
beautiful, called the Apollo Sauna Bath on Barrington Street (it's
still open) and I didn't know anything [about it being a gay bathhouse]," says Scott, a very petite woman with long, curly hair.
"I spoke with the owner and said I was from Toronto and
[that] I used to work in a massage parlour called Relaxation
Plus and would he be interested in hiring a masseuse,"
continues Scott, who is wearing jeans and a sweater. "I hadn't
been to Toronto in my life. And he was [interested]. So he
built me a little room, with a table and everything, and I had
a nice little sign, very tastefully painted, in the front window
that just said 'Masseuse.' And I did some pretty good business. Well, I didn't know the reason he hired me [was that]
it was a gay .place. And they were getting heat from the
cops. So he figured if he had a girl in there, then maybe the
cops wouldn't think it was so gay." She laughs, "And it
worked!" The fact that a lot of bisexual men frequented the
sauna kept Scott in business for a year before she moved on
to other forms of sex work.
Decades later, Scott is one of the most visible advocates for
the decriminalization of prostitution in Canada. In the '80s,
she was involved with the Canadian Organization for the
Rights of Prostitutes, renamed Sex Professionals of Canada
(SPOC) in 2000 (www.sexprofessionalsofcanada.com). SPOC
wasn't very active until last August, but since then, Scott has
been its most public face.
She's not the stereotypical angry activist. She speaks slowly
and methodically, but without hesitation. She lives in an
unassuming apartment near the heart of the drug-infested
P
intersection of Dundas and Sherbourne with her male partner
of eight years and her massive German shepherd, Brodie. "I
knew [I wanted to be a prostitute] when I was about four and
a half," she tells me, while her parrot Dorian repeatedly calls
out the dog's name. "I'd watch TV ... they'd show old western
movies, and I thought the part about the cowboys running
around killing each other was boring, but every now arid
again, they showed these saloon girls ... Oh, I wanted to be a
saloon girl. They lived in the centre oftown, they were beautifully dressed, they had their own money and no cowboy
could pull the wool over their eyes." When Scott later became
a stripper, her first "professional" costume was that of a saloon
girl.
Scott was confidently aware, even in high school, that she
wanted to be a prostitute. Though she doesn't disclose her
age, she admits she was four years old sometime in the '60s,
and has a 29-year-old son. (I promise to describe her only as
"mature"). When I was in high school, I had sex-worker
activists like Annie Sprinkle to look to for inspiration. I ask
Scott if she had any similar reference points, and she laughs,
saying, "It was all in my mind. I thought it would be a great
job." While she didn't tell her parents right away, they
know about it now, and are supportive. "My father always
says, 'Well, whatever you do, try and be the best.''' Her mother
is concerned about her safety, "because she doesn't want me
on the news with my head bashed in, dead," but she still
accepts that her daughter has chosen to be a sex worker.
SPOC's goal is simple: the decriminalization of prostitution. Its most recent activities ..are related to a parliamentary
subcommittee that's asking Canadians what they think of
prostitution laws. The subcommittee was formed in response
to a motion by lesbian NDP MP Libby Davies, which followed
the revelation that dozens of sex workers had been murdered
in Davies' downtown Vancouver riding; The subcommittee
is holding hearings across the country, listening to the opinions of academics, law enforcement officers, social workers,
people from organizations like SPOC and the general public.
Scott recently addressed the subcominittee, which will prepare
a report and submit it to the Justice Minister. In theory, the
Department of Justice could approve the recommendations
and propose changes to the law that would be voted on in
parliament. Scott sees the whole thing as a charade: "This is
a response to all the murders [of prostitutes] in Vancouver
and elsewhere .. , in order [for the feds] to show the public
that they are doing something." Scott goes on to tell me that
fab APR. 21, 2005 20
515
L.
she's spoken at many of these forums and public inquiries over
the years, and when anything has come out of them, it's been
bad for sex workers.
In 1985, the Mulroney government added the "communicating" law to the already confusing and contradictory section
of the Criminal Code dealing with prostitution. Today, prostitution laws basically boil down to this: it's legal to be a prostitute. But it's illegal to communicate in public for the purposes
of prostitution. And if you sell sex in your apartment, you can
be convicted of "keeping a common bawdy house." The definition of a bawdy house is so vague (it's a place where "indecent acts" occur) that owners of gay bathhouses have been
charged with keeping a bawdy house when there were no prostitutes present. (There is no legal definition of "indecent acts,"
so law enforcement officers can make a call based on their
gut feeling.)
My appreciation for the concept of decriminalization came
out of my first meeting with Scott, when we appeared together
a couple of years ago on Brad Fraser's TVshow Jawbreaker.
Like most liberal-minded people, and as a working prostitute,
I thought that prostitution should be "legal." But when Scott
briefly explained the difference between the decriminalization
and legalization of prostitution, I understood immediately why
decriminalization is the only way to go. Listen and learn.
"Decriminalization sees prostitution as a legitimate and
necessary business, whereas legalization sees prostitution as
a vice that needs to be contained and controlled." Scott explains
to me that in Germany, Amsterdam, Nevada and the Australian
state of Victoria, legalization has created a messy system of
state-mandated pimping and bad brothel owners. The legal
brothels charge 50% commission off the top, and then 25%
goes towards taxes, leaving the worker with 25% if she's lucky.
"I knew [I wanted to be a prostitute]
when 1 was about four and a half;
.. And there's fines for every little thing - if you're late for a
'lineup: it's a $100 fine. IT it's a 30-minute date and you're in
the room for 32 minutes, it's usually a $10 fine. You ask yourself, 'Who in their right mind would work under those conditions?'" Apparently, according to Scott, it's impoverished
Eastern European women in Amsterdam and Thai women in
Australia. Scott tells me, "The women who have citizenship
in those countries all work illegally and wouldn't be caught
dead in aJega,\brQthel." SoJegalizationhasn't eliminated illegal
pr~stitutid.ii.an,yWaY.
..
....• . ' . 'Y'.·. .
The tl~Acri~t~,fi:oni the subcomlIlitte~ heiuirigshave been
pub,lishe~LohnneiandI'Y!l:i~a.:.dm.ost of them. M~ny of the
prelienters feel that the.l'ilw,£should~.otchange. There is a lot
of talk fro'm$'oci'alwordtii'yPes ofihcre'asedfunding for "exit
strategie~.i' tar those ih~Qlved in the sex trade. Many of the
spe8:kers}Qdk iit 811 prostitutes as exploited victims. Some feel
prostitution shoUidbe decriminalized, but then regulated in
various ways (which basically amounts to legalization). I don't
activism
GRAYDON SHEPPAflDf FAB MAOOINE
agree with any form of regulation when it comes to prostitution. 1 don't understand why prostitution isn't treated like any
other service. Computer consultants are allowed to see clients
without regulation. They bill people for more than $loo/hour,
and are required to report their income and pay tax on it.
Prostitution should be the same.
A common argument for regUlating prostitution and treating
it differently than other industries is the idea that prostitutes
should be forced to undergo health tests. It baffles me that,
even though we know you can infect someone with a sexually
transmitted disease before it shows up in your own health
records, people in support of legalization always bring up the
need for strict health regulations. Scott tells me how it works
in Germany: "Officially it's condoms-only, but the girls aren't
permitted to use them if the client doesn't want it. Typically
the tests are done on a Thursday afternoon, so you get your
little grade' N disease-free meat certificate, put it on the wall
(where you must show it) and clients come in on Thursday
nights, which are busy, look at your certificate, and say, 'Great,
I'm not using a condom.'" And then the girls spread whatever
diseases they caught to the rest of the clients. "The reason we
[prostitutes] were able to get guys to use condoms is that they
were afraid we were going to give them something, not that
they cared if they were going to give us something. And when
that bargaining chip is taken away, we're lost."
I ask Scott if decriminalization has been successfully implemented anywhere, and she tells me that it's been in effect in
New South Wales, Australia, since the early '80s. "I worked in
a brothel [in Sydney] for a couple weeks, and it was entirely
different, a whole new attitude. Women don't need a licence.
Brothel owners don't need a special brothel licence." She tells
me that there are many types of brothels in Sydney, including
boy brothels. "I worked in a not-for-profit, collectively owned
fab APR. 21, 2005 21
-activism
516
more used to it. I don't
brothel." says Scott. This
know."
didn't mean that the prices
Bac:;k in Toronto, the
were low, but it meant the
reality for prostitutes is not
books were open and the
as good. While I knew there
women could see how
were regular street "sweeps"
much was being spent on
of prostitutes, I had never
advertising, rent, etc. Scott
heard of independent
says everyone pitched in on
escorts being busted, and
the cleaning and the brothel
wondered if maybe prosticommission was only 30%.
tution
was
already
There are apparently very
becoming
unofficially
few "bad dates" or murders
decriminalized, like weed.
in Sydney, and very few
SPOC
keeps very up to date
bad
brothel
owners
on
what's
going on in the
because, J?otes Scott, "they
scene,
so
I
ask
Scott if indedon't last long." I ask Scott
pendent escorts are free
if she felt that Sydney
from the cops. After a long
society in general was more
pause, she pops my idealaccepting of prostitution.
istic bubble, saying, "Um ...
She says yes, and has her
I'd love to say yes, but I
own historical theory about
GRAYDON SHEPPARDI FAa MAGAZINE
can't." She tells me that
it: "The first white women
Valerie Scott once worked in a co-op brothel in Sydney.
escorts are all "sitting
in Australia were prostitutes,
so for a great majority of the population, their great-great- ducks," depending on how busy a given police division is. She
grandmom was a whore. And maybe, maybe they're a little says it's true that cops aren't putting a lot of resources towards
.....-0':::
517
this, but there's always the possibility of complaints, and that
leaves prostitutes vulnerable to arrest. Most of the arrests are
of streetprostitutes, who after the'first ors~c:ondoffence usually
receive a jail sentence of six weeks·to two, months - notes Scott,
, "just enough time for thernio lose their apartments, lose all
thejr furniture. If they have children, they lose their children
... provincial jails ,are full of prostitutel!~"
When are people going to realize that prostitution is not
immoral? Toronto Star columnist Rosi~ DiMamio wrote an
impressive pro-prostitute column recently, and said; "Face it.
Prostitution will never be eradicated. Nor should it be, fora
host of obvious reasons, the most central of which is the human
desire for sex ... There's nothing inherently immoral about
that." While it is true that many people involved in prostitution, perhaps even themajor~ty, are not happy in the trade, ,the
stigriIa surrounding it cannot be helpful. Drug addiction, particularly crack, isa huge influenc~ onlhe street scene~ But
arresting drug addicts for selling $20 blow jobs is not going to
solve the "problem" of street prostitution.
activism·
OANHIlZIAK
"For a great majority of
the population, their'great-greatgrandmom was a whore"
SPOC's work is vital, because it's still necessilry to educate
people about the importance of decriminalization, and it's
necessal:y for prostitutes to organize and support each other.
" But dayct9-day,'Valerie Scott is a realist. I'm used to activists
who yeH a lot, ~ho ~ally people together with bullhorns. It ,
becomes clear to me that Scott takes a quiet; confident apprQilch
, " to the is~mebecause she doesn't believe change will come anytime soon. When you talk to her about Sydney, you see a
passion light up on'her filCe.It's be,cause she's witnessed a
system that prov,es decriminalization ~orks. But it's probably
_.,' just too c9lI)-plicated for Canadians to deal with the moral issueS
;'·sul'foundii'igsexw6rlc.$heiety'is tOb/ucked up about sex, and
thete arenp f~4erill politicians with the inteliigence, courage
_'and vision to inove this issue lorwar(!; which is what Scott 'tells me is needed ,before any}eal change can happen.
'_
She speaks wistfully,oftheJate Pierre Trudeau and her
belie(thatllewas goi#g ti);aUeast partially, decriminalize
, - ptostitutioIiiIithfleatly '80s."TrUdeauunderstood the differ, encelbetween legaliZation i ariddecriminalization). He decrim'inalized gay ahdies1;liai:i:-'~ex;:when he was justice minister inthe Peru:son gov~nin:ent." She laments the "fateful walk in
"the snoW" W'heti'Triidea~ decided to retire, and points out
-(that all we'y,eha~ silie!) then'ras Mulroney, whose government inn:oduce~ thecurrenfsommunicating law. She says,
e "The NDP s:eesp~osti~J1ies~svictims;the Conservatives see
'usas villains and thepherals try and ignore us as much as
possible. ,And so wheh a whole whack of us show up dead,
then they havj;l {oltave a little travelling road show."
INSPIRED IMAGES
• Todd KIinck isfilb's Trade columnist.
COURTESY WUfRiE seon
tab APR. 21. 2005 23
518
This is Exhihit
N
referred to in the affidavit of
\}~<>---,-\Q--,"-r,-\,--"e.",---._S~C,-",o,----,\--,~____swom before me,
__
this CA~
?/
day of~()..cC'" 2007
~ ffltni-s'
~~v~
er etc ...
519
Honorable Bill Graham:
October 14, 2004
We are writing you in the wake of so many lives lost: The lives of prostitutes. These are
people who have the rights to life, liberty and security ofperson. From the mass slaughter
in Vancouver, to the many other deaths and acts of violence that have happened
throughout Canada, it is clear that some remedial action needs to take place.
We as prostitutes want to see our industry recognized as legitimate labour sector. We do
not wish for legalization or any other procedure that would treat our industry as a vice.
The laws currently in place surrounding prostitution are problematic for all parties
involved, particularly prostitutes. Legislation such as the Communicating, Procuring and
Bawdy House laws contribute to our marginalization. Such laws destroy lives.
Prostitutes are not some malady of society who needs to be contained and controlled. We
wish to pay fair business taxes and contribute to society as the rest of the population does.
Prostitutes wish to live and work in dignity and safety. It is for these reasons that we are
calling for the decriminalization of prostitution.
Thank you for your time and consideration,
Sex Professionals of Canada
520
Minister of Justice
and Attorney General of Canada
Ministre de la Justice
et procureur general du Canada
The Honourable / L.:honorable Irwin Cotler, P.C., O.C., M.P./c.p., o.c., depute
Ottawa, Canada K1A OH8
APR 2 7 Z005
The Honourable Bill Graham, P.C., Q.C., M.P.
Toronto Centre
Suite 1805
365 Bloor Street East
Toronto, Ontario M4W 3L4
Dear Colleague:
Thank you for your correspondence on behalf of your constituent Ms. Valerie Scott,
concerning the decriminalization of prostitution.
As you are aware, the Government of Canada recognizes that prostitution is a serious,
rilUlti-faceted social problem closely linked to other social problems such as sexual
abuse, pornography, drug abuse, and violence. Prostitution also affects our
communities-residents are affected when individuals involved in the sex trade impede
motor vehicle and pedestrian traffic, obstruct doorways, harass residents, and expose
children to the trade.
Prostitution requires a comprehensive approach involving the federal, provincial,
and territorial governments. Deputy Ministers responsible for Justice established
the Federal/Provincial/Territorial Working Group on Prostitution to review legislation,
policy, and practices. The Working Group thoroughly examined the issue of
decriminalization, including tolerance for "red-light" districts. The Working Group's
report recommended that no changes be made regarding the decriminalization of
prostitution and the repeal of bawdy-house provisions. The report suggested further
discussions among various levels of government regarding the regulatory authority
of municipalities with relation to bawdy-houses. The Working Group's report
is available on the Department of Justice Canada Web site at
www.canada.justice.gc.ca/en/news/nr/1998/disclaimer.html.
Canaaa
521
2
The House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights also decided
to explore prostitution-related issues and established a sub-committee to study the
solicitation laws with a view to improving the safety of sex-trade workers and their
communities. This sub-committee began its review in September 2003 but, for
procedural reasons, was not able to complete it. At my request, a new sub-committee
has been established by the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice, Human
Rights and Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness and is carrying on this work.
Addressing the problems posed by prostitution does not just involve legislative reform
and criminal law enforcement, but also social intervention and community support.
The Government will ~ontinue to build on past achievements and to work with the
provinces, territories, and the community on ihese fronts. Building consensus on ihe
need for, and direction of, legislative change is a worthy and demanding task in our
complex society, and one that is greatly enhanced by the contributions of informed and
interested persons.
Please assure Ms. Scott that every effort is being made to deal with these issues in a
way that takes into consideration the interests and responsibilities of all concerned
parties.
I appreciate having had your constituent's concerns brought to my attention.
Yours sincerely,
Irwin Cotler
522
\ph 01-6 CoP9i
"
(ytI
),pO C
Vl1
efn berC;,
523
This is Exhibit
0
referred to in the affidavit of
_--'\)==--:(}..=-\--'--Q=r'-----'\'-'"e_S-=-c-"'o'--'~__'\-_ _ _ _ sworn before me,
this
Q'b
day of N\o-rc'u 2007
~~
524
Subcommittee on Solicitation Laws of the Standing
Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and
Emergency Preparedness
NUMBER 012
•
1st SESSION
•
38th PARLIAMENT
EVIDENCE
Tuesday, March 15, 2005
[Recorded by Electronic ApparatllS]
* * *
(2)
.(0830)
[English]
The Chair (Mr. John Maloney (Weiland, Lib.)): Good morning. This is the
Subcommittee on SolicitationLaws of the Standing Committeeon Justice, Human Rights,
Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. We thank you all for coming this morning.
We will hear presentations of roughly five to ten minutes. At ten minutes I will cut you
off. We will all make our presentations, and then there will be questions from our panel
and responses. We've got two hours, so it's important that our questions are succinct and
to the point, and similarly the answers given. Are there any questions from anyone?
I'd like to open the session with a presentation from Mr. Glenn Betteridge, senior
policy analyst, from Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal Network.
Mr. Betteridge.
525
Mr. Glenn Betteridge (Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian HIV/AIDS Legal
Network): Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Maloney.
I'm a senior policy analyst with the Canadian HIY/AIDS Legal Network, a lawyer by
training, and a member of the Ontario bar in good standing. On behalf of the HIY /AIDS
Legal Network, I'd like to thank the committee and its staff for inviting us to present
today.
We're a national organization engaged in education, legal and ethical analysis, and
policy development on issues related to HlV/AIDS and the law. Our work is both
Canadian and international in scope, and we have 250 member organizations across
Canada, half of which are community-based organizations with an interest in HIY/AIDS
and legal issues.
In 2003 we began a project on sex work, criminalization, and HIY/AIDS, squarely
within the mandate of the issues this committee is looking at. In the context of that
project we have interviewed key informants and held a national consultation attended by
current and former sex workers, sex work advocates, and public health and social science
researchers. In addition, we've researched the links between Canadian criminal law
relating to prostitution and the health and safety of sex workers, including the HIY /AIDSrelated health and safety issues.
This year we'll be producing a full-length report arising out of this project. It's
provisionally titled "Prostitution under the Canadian Criminal Code: Principles for law
reform in the context ofHIY/AIDS". We'll of course provide the subcommittee with
copies of that report upon its completion. Today I'll provide a very short summary of
some aspects of that report.
Public health and social science researchers in Canada have amassed a fairly large
body of qualitative and quantitative evidence on the link between sex work and
HIV/ AIDS. The available evidence clearly indicates that sex workers are not vectors of
HIV infection. Despite the evidence, the HlV epidemic has had a stigmatizing effect on
sex workers.
Our report will dispel myths surrounding HIY/AIDS, prostitution, and sex work. We'll
recommend refonns that aim to protect sex workers and their chents from exposure to
HIV/ AIDS, while protecting the human rights of sex workers. Our report will also
address the situation of sex workers living with HIV / AIDS.
In terms of prostitution law reform and the particular mandate of this committee, we
believe the crucial question is whether the Criminal Code provisions related to
prostitution, being sections 210 to 213 inclusive, taken individually or together, minimize
or contribute to the health and safety risks faced by sex workers. The answer to this
question will provide a strong indication of the necessary, although not necessarily
sufficient, elements oflaw reform.
526
)
In terms of violence against indigenous women, according to 1996 Canadian / /
government statistics, indigenous women between the ages of25 and 44 withjtatus under
he federal Indian Act are five times more likely than other women ofthe same age to die
a a result of violence. In the murder of Helen Betty Osbourne, the Manit ajus6ce
iry said that her attackers seemed to be operating on the assumptio that aboriginal
n were promiscuous and open to enticement through alcohol a a violence.
Whet er prostitution is a criminal act or not, women in the se trade are entitled to
protection f their human rights. Concrete and effective meas es must be adopted to
ensure their afety and to bring to justice those who commit r profit from violence
against sex w kers. The threat of arrest places sex worke in an adversarial relationship
with police. Se :workers are reluctant to seek the protec on of police for fear of being
arrested. In tum, lice tend to look on prostitutes wit suspicion and mistrust, and they
blame them for put' g themselves at risk.
cD .+-(1205)
of sex work th ugh the lens of aboriginal women, we find
the answer to why so many se worker de ths are deaths of aboriginal women. The
isolation and social marginaliza .on tha ncreases the risk of violence faced by women in
the sex trade is often particularly ut for indigenous women. The role of racism and
sexism in compounding the threat t indigenous women in the sex trade was starkly noted
by Justice David Wright in the 19 6 t . al of John Martin Crawford for the murder of three
indigenous women in Saskatch an. It ems Mr. Crawford was attracted to his victims
for-four reasons: first, they w e young; s ond, they were women; third, they were
native; and fourth, they wer prostitutes.
I've come here today 0 ask you to decrimina . e sex work. Enclosed in the package
I've brought today ar recommendations from Am esty International's Stolen Sisters
report and suggesti s from a peer-led research gro on how decriminalization would
play out with the upport of social programs. I'd also 1 quest and I would hope that in the
summary of yo r travels, more aboriginal women will
consulted and be part of the
process.
Mee
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Mooney.
From the Sex Professionals of Canada, we have Valerie Scott, Wendy Babcock, or
Amy.
527
Ms. Valerie Scott (Member, Sex Professionals of Canada): I'm with Sex
Professionals of Canada. Wendy Babcock and Amy are also with the group.
Thank you very much for inviting us. It seems that for me, at least, being a little older,
I come to these things quite often. The first time was in 1985 with regard to Bill C-49,
which became law, known as the communicating law. We sat in Ottawa and told the MPs
at the time what would happen about the rapes, about the robberies, about the murders if
this law was implemented. They said thank you very much--and John Nunziata said "You
seem quite intelligent" --and then the law was implemented.
This is what's happened: 500 missing aboriginal women, 69 dead in Vancouver, and
others all over the country.
You don't have to take my word for it; you can look it up in Hansard. The name of the
organization that I spoke with then was the Canadian Organization for the Rights of
Prostitutes.
Now, to relax this law and then have a scenario like we had after the Supreme Court
Hutt decision in 1978 would be a mistake. We'll have residents' associations lobbying for
another law, and it will be the same thing all over again. I think it would be better if we
took a different approach, and that approach would be decriminalization, which is very
different from legalization. Many people are unaware of the differences.
I'll head off with what not to do, and that's legalization, which sees prostitution as a
vice that needs to be heavily-contained and controlled. Women who work under such a
system have to register at the police station, where they are fingerprinted and
photographed like criminals. They have to give very personal, detailed infonnation about
themselves to the police.
After they pay a hefty annual fee for their licence, they can then work at a designated
brothel. That brothel owner auditions them for free, and has much say over their work.
They are extremely vulnerable, because they can't move from brothel to brothel. He has
all the power. Usually it's 12-hour shifts, and there's no such thing as right of refusal. For
example, if a client comes in and wants a certain kind of sex the woman is not
comfortable with, she still has to do it under legalized systems. The house takes 50%, and
usually the government takes another 25% off ofthat in the form of sin taxes; after all,
this is a vice. So the woman who has done the actual work is lucky to take home 25%.
You ask yourself, who in their right mind would work under those kinds of conditions?
Well, in Amsterdam it's women from impoverished eastern European countries. In the
state of Victoria, in Australia, where they have legalization, it's women from Thailand.
Among the women in Amsterdam and Victoria, the ones who have citizenship work
illegally. So you end up with a legal red-light sex ghetto and an illegal red-light district. It
solves nothing for anyone. The only people who profit are the brothel owners.
528
Now, decriminalization sees prostitution as a legitimate and necessary business.
Women do not have to get a special licence. Brothel owners only have to have a simple
business licence. Women can work in brothels of their own choosing. If they wish to
open up their own one- or two-bedroom apartment, they can. There's no one lording it
over them, telling them you must do this, and you must have sex with this guy, and you
must only bring home 25%. None of that happens.
There is such a system in the state of New South Wales in Australia, and it works very
well. I went over there just for a short time, and it's another world. Bad brothel owners
don't last long. Women are happy in their jobs. They can move around. If they want to
work at an established house, they can, but they don't have to; they can set up their own
operations.
(I)
V+(1210)
Last year there was one bad date in Sydney. Oh, that was a big thing; a guy had stolen
her purse. One bad date in a year? We would be happy if that happened only once a night
in Toronto. The courts and the police take it very seriously when something like that
happens over there, and it's worked very well. The murders, the beatings, the robberies-they don't exist.
So this is what] urge Canada to do. ] urge Canada to adopt this same mature strategy. ]
know it's difficult, I know it's very difficult, for MPs to go out on a political limb like
that, but please understand that all these women, all our colleagues, are now dead, and
countless others have been robbed and raped. .
] implore you, think about that: think about decriminalization.
Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you very much.
From the London Alliance to SUPPOli Sex Trade, Mr. Watkins and Cindy Campbell.
Mr. Jim Watkins (Co-chair, London AHiance to Support Sex Trade): Thank you
for having us.
My name is Jim Watkins. I work with the AIDS Committee of London, as an IDU
outreach worker, and I'm also the co-chair of London Alliance to Support Sex Trade, in
London, Ontario. Weare a group of agencies that have come together to support
individuals working in the sex trade.
529
One of our issues is that we work under harm reduction perspectives, and we see the
current communication law as a deterrent to any sort of safety and ability to reduce the
isolation of individuals who are working in sex work. We've also noticed th~t the laws
are instituted based on a pattern that we really can't predict. The police tend to pick and
choose times when they're going to institute them and carry them through. That creates
even further isolation for increased violence, increased disease transmission, and lack of
safety for the individuals working in the trade.
That's essentially where we're at. We completely support decriminalization in order to
reduce the isolation and the danger involved in the work.
I'll pass it over to Cindy at this point.
Ms. Cindy Campbell (Co-chair, London Alliance to Support Sex Trade): I haven't
prepared anything for this, and I have a bit of a cold, so I'll try to make this as short as
possible. J'lJ just speak about the law and how it's affected my life.
I've been a sex trade worker since at least 14 years of age. When we speak of morals, I
think it's morally wrong that the system was not there for me at 14, or at 16, or at any
other time. I think it's morally wrong that people are interested in my sex life at 47.
Where were they when I was 14? That's where I stand morally.
I'm from Windsor, Ontario. Escorts are licensed through the city. I was a runaway. I
have no criminal record. I always paid taxes as an escort. I paid city hall my licensing
fees. When I was 40 years old, 7 years ago, I came to London to start a new life and get
out of the business. I was targeted. I was arrested. I had to tum enough tricks to pay
$15,000 to a lawyer. It was thrown out of court because it was found to be legal, and I
paid taxes.
I developed two inoperable tumours in my stomach, fighting the police and the system
for two years. I should be dead. I paid for my funeral six months ago. My tumours have
disappeared. Obviously, there's more work for me to do in this life, or I would not be
here.
What I want to know is this: if it's licensed, if it's legal, why am I subjected to these
actions? If I opened up a beauty salon, which is legal, and I paid taxes, I wouldn't have to
worry every day whether I'm going to get arrested.
As to whether decriminalization is the answer, my whole issue is an exit program. That
is what I'm all about, and that's what l'm fighting to do. Even if it doesn't get
decriminalized, I think people need to look at the laws and treat them accordingly in each
city. From girl to girl, city to city, the law is being treated differently. Whether it's you
who's targeted, whether it's Monday--you know, the law doesn't stand on its own in any
one city with anyone girl.
530
I was the only independent, tax-paying sex trade worker who was arrested in that sting.
My name was Target, and I lost my home and my health. I will never recover. I lost my
dream. Everything was destroyed. I realize that I will never put that back together again.
If it's licensed and it's legal, then so be it, and treat it accordingly. They're licensing
young girls at the age of 19 through city hall, but they fail to tell them, when they hand
over that cash, that they could be arrested. Any number of things could happen to their
lives, and yet they take that money.
I also have the government chasing me for income tax money. I refuse to give them
another dime as long as they continue to arrest me for something that is legal. So if it isn't
the police I'm going to fight, it's the government.
That's my story. I think people need to get over sex in general. They can't deal with sex
for money, but they can't even deal with the subject of sex. We've got some real issues.'
We've got people having sex with children, and we can't even wrap our heads around sex
between consenting adults. We're never going to get to the children if we can't deal with
legal, adult issues.
Thank you,
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Campbell.
Yes?
Ms. Valerie Scott: Mr. Chairman, Wendy Babcock and Amy are slated to speak as
well.
The Chair: We have only ten minutes per group. Perhaps we can come back to you.
We'll just proceed and see how it goes. We're missing one presenter right now, so we'll
see. I want everyone to have a fair shot, but I don't necessarily want to depart from the
general rule.
531
Ms. Wendy Babcock (Member, Sex Professionals of Canada): We just want to
make sure that working girls get a chance to speak, not just social workers. These laws
affect us.
The Chair: Okay. Thank you for your comment.
From the Parkdale Action Committee for Street Improvement, Sheila Lipiatt.
Ms. Sheila Lipiatt (Chairperson, Parkdale Action Committee for Street
Improvement): I only heard about this committee late yesterday afternoon on CBC
radio, so I don't know what you have done to prepare people like me to come to this
meeting. I had to quickly put some notes together and get myself dressed and down here
before the 1:30 cutoff.
I am a resident of the city of Toronto, and I am chairperson of Parkdale Action
Committee for Street Improvement. I am also a retired public health nurse. Some 15
years ago I was on a policing committee with Superintendent Getty, who, with other
members of the community and Mayor Art Eggleton, went down to Ottawa to speak to
the justice committee around issues of prostitution. A country-wide survey was also done,
and the.results ended up leading to nothing.
I have visited the Reeperbahn in Germany. I've been on rue Saint-Denis in Paris, and I
have seen the area in Bangkok. ] also took my father, who is more than 70 years old, into
the red-light district in Amsterdam, just so he could see what was going on there. I have
even been in Sao Paulo, Brazil. These were just a matter of interest to me; I wasn't doing
any psychological studies or anything of that nature. But I want to say a number of things
to you today. I feel that it needs to be regulated and licensed so it can be controlled by
both numbers and age. I think the time has come. We are already in the 21 st century.
First--and hear me well on this one--there should be no more street prostitution that has
plagued streets across the large cities of our country. For example, I think it's the east side
of Vancouver that is unbelievable. Male and female sex workers must be at least 19 years
of age. They would not be able work out of their own homes, but should be allowed to
visit their client's hotel or home. Their practice should be conducted singularly or in a
group as a business, where taxes are paid and they are housed in a business area. Here's
the catch: municipalities could opt out if desired, and this must be indicated in the
legislation. So if small-town Ontario didn't want this, they would have the right not to
have it.
Regular checks should be made by public health, and they would be registered with an
autonomous body. For example, as a nurse, I used to have to register every year with the
College of Nurses, to keep up my practice.
532
Any under-aged individual participating in prostitution should be fined a minimum
fine of $5,000, and if they couldn't pay the fine, their option would be jailor a rehab drug
centre, if that was appropriate, or an agency like Streetlight. This would have to be
ordered by the judge.
Judges are another matter all on their own. They must be made to realize the
importance of these policies. They don't live in areas where street prostitution is often
done, and consequently some of them don't have the slightest idea of the repercussions
street prostitution has on a neighbourhood, such as pimps, drug pushers, creating a seedy
atmosphere in your residential neighbourhood, condoms on the lawns, condoms in the
backyards, even explicit sex being committed because of a crack worker not knowing
what she's doing. I've seen all this in my neighbourhood in the past. It's not like this at the
moment, but it has been, and that's why I'm here today.
As a committee, you have to advocate for this. If you go along with my premise, part
of this package has to be that there are more drug treatment programs for the crackaddicted workers, and alternatives for getting out of prostitution, such as Streetlight and
other helping organizations. For those who seriously want to do this, such as this lady to
my left, they should be allowed.
That's basically what I've come here in a rush to say to you today. I hope you will take
my suggestions, recommendations, and thoughts seriously.
I can tell you that as a long-time community worker, I don't have a great amount of
faith any more in politicians, government, or anything else of that nature. Sometimes they
run around the country getting different points of view, then a report is done up and sits
on the shelf collecting dust, and nothing is achieved in the end. I don't want that to
happen here. I pay my taxes, and I expect something in return.
V '~(1225)
The Chair: Thank you.
Leslie Milne.
Ms. Wendy Babcock: Excuse me.
The Chair: I said we would come back to you.
533
Ms. Wendy Babcock: I have a s~heduled time to speak.
Ms. Valerie Scott: We're scheduled in.
Ms. Wendy Babcock: I was invited to speak, and I don't want to be silenced here
because of what I do for a living.
The Chair: You're not going to be silenced. I'm going from the list I have here. You'll
have your opportunity.
Do you have to leave early this afternoon?
Ms. Wendy Babcock: I will have to leave by ] :30.
The Chair: It's 12:30, more or less, so we have lots of time.
Go ahead.
Ms. Leslie Milne (As an Individual): Good morning, everybody.
Honourable members of Parliament, on approximately January 15,2001, I accepted a
position of counsellor and intake worker at an agency in Toronto called Streetlight
Support Services. At the time I worked there, Streetlight provided a court-offered
diversion program for people who had been charged with communicating for the
purposes of prostitution or inmate in a common bawdy house. People who participated in
the program were told that their charges would be withdrawn upon completion of the
program. While at Streetlight, I, along with other staff, had sanction from the Ontario
Attorney General's office to determine individual eligibility to participate in and
ultimately graduate from their programs.
To my knowledge, the Streetlight program was initiated to provide, in partnership with
metro police and the Toronto judicial system, positive programs and counselling for sex
534
workers who were deemed by the greater community to be deserving of alternatives to
the traditional trial process, because they were seen to be mostly women who were being
exploited and abused. While I worked at Streetlight, 1 participated i1) conversations about
how the sex industry is a fonn of violence against women. To my knowledge, one of the
original foundations of this program was developed out of a well-intended premise that
because sex workers are exploited and abused women who are trapped in sex work, they
deserve an alternative judicial measure if they en charge legal complications as sex
workers.
Initially when I started working there, 1 was very neutral about the fact that most of my
clients came to Streetlight because they had been charged with a criminal offence. I really
believed that the idea of having an exit or diversion program for sex workers was
beneficial to them and that I was doing a positive social service by being a part ofthat
type of program. However, during the three and a half years I worked there as a front-line
counsellor, I began to realize that the people who were being sent to Streetlight were not
in any way deserving of incurring criminal charges for working in the sex trade or for
attempting to purchase time with a sex trade worker.
This program also runs the john school, and this is where most of the revenue for the
Choices program comes from-and Choices is what the women's part of the program is
called. Every Tuesday, the johns would come to register for the school, for which they
would pay the sum of $400. Over the years I observed hundreds of men, and 1 can assure
you that most of them did not seem like criminals. As a paid counsellor while I was
employed there, I assessed that many of these men were lonely 0T had other personal
reasons for wanting to spend time with a sex professional. Whether I agreed with their
choice or not and whether I liked it or not, they were adult men who incurred the charge
of communicating because they had mistakenly tried to pick up a woman who was
dressed up and pretending to be a sex worker. Maybe we think these men are unsavoury
or maybe we think they're slimy, but criminals? I don't think so.
While at Streetlight as a workshop and long-tenn one-to-one counsellor, I encouraged
my counsellees to reclaim their voices. As time passed, I began to see over and over
again that many of my clients' lives had been irreversibly damaged not always from
working in the business of sex, but many times due to the fact that they had incurred
criminal charges. For many, the action of having incurred the criminal charge alone
causes them trauma and depression. For many who hope to work in the business shorttenn and then move on to something else, a criminal record is something that I have
personally and professionally witnessed as preventing people from being able to move in
other directions.
Although diversion and exit programs for sex workers were initially created as a
compassionate, restorative response to people who have been criminally charged, I
believe we need to take a very serious look at whether or not hard-working sex
professionals and their clients deserve to be labelled as criminals. I would confidently say
that while I was a full-time member at Streetlight, I observed time and again that due to
being charged with communicating or being a bawdy house inmate, my clients were
535
being made to suffer unreasonable amounts of punitive stress and trauma that they did not
deserve or warrant.
Of my clients, 25% were homeless, crack cocaine sex pros. I am sincerely asking if
somebody can please tell me what is kind or compassionate about charging and arresting
a woman who is homeless and crack-addicted? What is helpful about putting her in a jail
cell, making her stand before a packed, set-date courtroom, possibly granting her bail,
and then releasing her, only to assume that she'll even know what day it is when she
needs to come back to court?
I had one client who would work for a pack of cigarettes. She was developmentally
disabled, and her legal entanglements did not help her. As a professional, I thought it was
abusive and cruel that Toronto 14 Division police would routinely charge her and send
her to the College Park courthouse. I don't know if any of you have ever been to a jailor
been in courthouse cells, but anyone who has the smallest bit of education, compassion,
empathy, or understanding for sex workers and the type of business they do will know
they do not deserve that type of punitive treatment.
I also do not understand how, on the day a person turns] 8, they are no longer labelled
as a sexually exploited youth or abused child. Overnight, they've turned into an adult
offender, subject to possible incarceration, fines-and we all know where the money will
come from-probation, and in some cases the judicial offer to attend a diversion exit
program, such as the one where I worked and ultimately where I witnessed firsthand how
much unnecessary suffering is inflicted upon adults who are logically and freely choosing
to participate in the sex trade either as a client or as a service provider.
Although upon completion of some diversion programs the charge is withdrawn, it
remains on their record for the rest of that person's life. Over the years] spent working at
Streetlight, I met many new Canadians who didn't speak any English. They had no idea
that by working in a massage parlour, they could get a criminal charge. They're not
criminals, but they now have permanent criminal records.
Most of my clients were clean and sober mothers, wives, and students. A few of them
had pimps, but out of a clientele of more than 300, I don't think they were the majority.
And I would like to mention that Canadian women are currently protected with domestic
violence and spousal abuse laws. Women who are being abused by their partners need
support, encouragement, and guidance. Sex workers who are involved with abusive
partners deserve the same consideration and support for encouragement as non-sex
workers.
Given that sex workers are in the category of "criminal", especially if they have
incurred charges, they are often afraid and reluctant to report paJiner spousal abuse and
stand up to defend themselves as any abused spouse would. They are blamed for their
536
circumstances and are not given equal acknowledgement like other women who live with
abusive, controlling partners are.
I had a very diverse client popUlation, but the one thing they all shared was that now,
permanently and forever, they were going to have a record of being charged with a
sexually related criminal offence. Also, many of them worked in other professions or
planned to graduate from school, and the permanent damage that is created from having a
criminal record is irreversible and causes great suffering for many of these people,
suffering that, as intelligent, kind, creative, hard-working people, they don't deserve.
To many of my clients, I became a trusted confidante, and with most respect, I am
sharing with you that many of my clients had been abused by members of their local
police forces. Due to the fact that they could be blackmailed by the police about their
criminal activities as sex workers, unfortunately I did not have one client who felt safe
enough to come forward about their abuse. Oh, I had many clients who had positive
experiences with police members as well, and many times it is through arbitrary decisions
that sex pros are charged. This places the women and the smaII number of men and
transgendered workers in a very vulnerable position when it comes to dealing with their
local police forces.
In my lifetime, I have witnessed many social changes that strive to enable all Canadian
citizens equal rights and justice. On paper, consenting adult sex professionals and their
clients are deemed to be participating in criminal activity. As a citizen of Canada, and
with the compassion ....
Am] done?
The Chair: Could you wrap up, please?
Ms. Leslie Milne: I will. I was just thinking I would go quickly.
Thanks for listening. You guys are great. You're a good audience.
As a citizen of Canada, and with the compassion and wisdom garnered from my
professional experiences, I am asking that you please consider decriminalizing sex work
as the only step to take if we are going to create and ensure respect, safety, and
community equality for the people working in the world's oldest profession.
I am no longer an employee of the diversion and exit program I have referred to. I feel
it is very important for you to know that my commitment to create positive change for
Canadian sex professionals is the result of my professional front-line counselling
experience with sex workers and their families. As time progressed, my conscience
would no longer allow me to remain silent about this issue.
537
With much respect and appreciation for your continued efforts on what I know is a
very complex cultural topic that affects all of us, I would like to say thank you for your
time and your interest.
The Chair: Thank you, Ms. Milne.
Wendy Babcock is next, and then Amy.
Ms. Wendy Babcock: First I'd like to give you a little background infonnation.
My name is Wendy Babcock. I was a ward of the Children's Aid Society. I was let go
at the age of 15; I don't know why. I found myself not being able to go into a shelter, a
foster home, or back to my parents. I could not get an apartment because of my age. I had
a part-time job where I was making $6.25 an hour, ten hours a week, so I could go to high
school. I decided to do prostitution so I could get my education and be where I am today.
I'm here today because I want to discuss with you how section 213 of the Canadian
Criminal Code, which is communication for the purposes of prostitution, puts prostitutes
in danger. I understand that the laws against communicating were fonned for three main
reasons: one, to reduce the number of prostitutes and clients; two, to make the law equal
in arresting clients as well as prostitutes; and three, to end the nuisance of street
prostitution.
In 1984 this must have seemed like a great idea, and maybe it was in theory, but this is
2005 and we have not reduced the number of prostitutes. Instead, we have driven them
underground and put them in dangerous situations. Currently, 69 women have been
murdered in Vancouver. There are over 80 missing prostitutes in Edmonton. My friend
and coJIeague, Lien Pham, was murdered in Toronto on October 13, 2003. This law has
reduced the number of prostitutes, but not in the way any of us had in mind.
This law hasn't even been equal in charging clients and prostitutes equally. According
to Statistics Canada, about 97% of those charged with communicating for the purpose of
prostitution are prostitutes, while 3% of them are clients. Correct me ifl'm wrong, but
doesn't it take two to communicate?
Not only is this law unfair in its enforcement, it also creates a wall between police and
prostitutes. The Toronto Police sex crimes unit has infonned me that approximately four
to five assaults and rapes happen every day in the city of Toronto. You might ask
yourself why prostitutes never go to the police and talk about this. If you were a
prostitute, you would already know the answer. It is a general assumption among
prostitutes, especially street prostitutes, that if they go to the police their report will not
be taken seriously, or they will be told they deserve it or should expect it in their line of
538
work. I've heard this come from the mouths of many sex workers. Some are even afraid
that if they report an assault, rape, robbery, or any other crime committed against them
while working they might end up being charged with a prostitution-related offence
themselves. I have seen that happen.
To me it is an outrage that we have so many people who believe that the crime of
prostitution outweighs that of any abuse or assault committed against a woman who is
involved in this profession. The fact that assaults, rape, confinement, and even murder are
being committed and women are afraid to come forward to the authorities should tell us
something. It should tell us that these laws, in effect, are increasing the murder and
violence against prostitutes while doing nothing to reduce the number of women who get
into this profession.
This law tel1s us that certain peop"Je in this society are criminals, so they are
expendable. Nobody asks to be assaulted. The fact that many prostitutes are intimidated
by the police prevents them from reporting acts of violence against them, and perpetrators
know this. Anti-prostitute laws and social attitudes set prostitutes up for violence. This
law has to be erased from the Criminal Code before it puts any more women in danger.
Thank you.
The Chair: Thank you, Wendy.
Amy, do you wish to say something?
Ms. Amy X (Member, Sex Professionals of Canada): My name is Amy.
As a sex worker, every time I see a date in my home I am scared he is a cop who will
charge me for keeping a common bawdy house--a serious charge. I could lose my home.
My bank accounts can be seized. I can go to prison for two years, and get out with a
criminal record, which would seriously impede my future employment.
I am currently a university student and working diligently towards my degree. I have
chosen to see dates in my home to work safely. It's my territory, and unlike doing
outcalls, which is the only quasi-legal way to work as a sex worker, ] can ensure myself
that there are not three guys hiding in a closet when I arrive. I work discreetly, and my
neighbours are unaware. I am not hanning anyone.
How can I lose everything for this? Because the bawdy house law is also considered an
enterprise crime. How can you justify this?
539"
I have been raped and abused by clients. I have chosen not to report any of these
crimes. I will continue not to report them to police if I experience any more bad dates,
because I know I will be shamed, and I will be investigated. I know I can be
countercharged.
Your laws have forced me to stay silent. You may ask yourself why I am still in this
business. Why, after all you have done to me with your laws? I will tell you it's because
sex work is a viable and legitimate profession. Whether or not I remain in this business,
others will. You have an opportunity to stop the violence and murders via
decriminalization.
Thank you.
The Chair: Mr. Hanger, we're going to have some difficulty with time, so if you
could, make your questions direct and to the point if you want our panel of witnesses to
respond in a similar way--short and as directly as they can.
Mr. Art Hanger: There are interesting presentations here. I would think most of the
presentations reflect an idea that this should be more like a business or an individual
enterprise, ] suppose. ]s that basically it, with the exception of these two ladies?
] want to get my head around what you're suggesting here. You want to create a model
for prostitutes to create this other kind of environment where they can maybe work out of
their own houses or out of an apartment?
Ms. Valerie Scott: Yes, out of their own houses or apartments, or an established
brothel.
'Mr. Art Hanger: In other words, you want licensing of the individuals, then.
Ms. Valerie Scott: No.
Mr. Art Hanger: You don't want any licensing of individuals?
540
Ms. V~lerje Scott: No, there's no need. We don't see any need for it. And as for the
established brothels, we don't see that they should have to have any licences other than an
ordinary business licence.
Mr. Art Hanger: What about the gal who wants to go and hook on the street?
+
4'-- (1245)
Ms. Valerie Scott: Well, what they've done in Sydney--and it's worked quite well--is
that street workers are not allowed to work within 200 metres of a place of worship, a
school, a hospital, or a dwelling.
We're okay with the place of worship, the school, and the hospital, but in Canadian
cities a dwelling is pretty much everywhere. So I think we have to arrive at some kind of
compromise, perhaps on only commercially zoned streets or something like that.
However, even if you brought in the death penalty here, you're not going to get rid of
street prostitution.
Mr. Art Hanger: Of course not.
Ms. Valerie Scott: I think if we were allowed to work inside--and the majority of
prostitution does occur inside--with the Canadian climate, not so many women or men
would be outside working.
.., \.\
Mr. Art Hanger:If you don't mind my saying so, what you're talking about is, so to
speak, open competition, and where there's a dollar to be made, if one person feels the
price should be set at say $100, there's going to be someone who comes along and says
no, I'm going to do $50. Then some are going to come along and say, I'll do $20 .
So you have a problem that's probably compounded in the community, as opposed to
something that you would suggest would be free and self-regulating.
541
I would have to suggest that the community would probably be more up in arms over a
model like that, because where would the control be?
Ms. Valerie Scott: What community are you referring to?
Mr. Art Hanger: I'm just talking about in a city.
Ms. Valerie Scott: Ah.
Well, prostitution tends to gather in certain areas. In Sydney, for example, it's in an
area called Kings Cross. It doesn't really spill over into too many other areas. Kings Cross
is very similar to what Yorkville is in Toronto. It has the jazz cafes and expensive
lingerie boutiques and really nice stores, and couples go strolling there on the weekends.
It all works.
Mr. Art Hanger: And no street prostitution.
Ms. Valerie Scott: There is street prostitution in Kings Cross. That's where it is in
Sydney.
The Chair: Please let her finish her response, and then we'll move on, because other
witnesses have indicated an intention to speak.
Ms. Valerie Scott: That is where street prostitution mainly occurs in Sydney: in Kings
Cross or in that area.
So some things have to be looked at here in terms of how we're going to deal with the
little bit of street prostitution that will exist, but I think you have to admit that what we
have now, currently, really isn't working.
542
The Chair: Ms. Campbell, Ms. Mooney, and then Ms. Babcock.
Ms. Cindy Campbell: I'm fine. 1 don't have anything.
Ms. Maurganne Mooney: 1 just wanted to say that there is a class system within sex
work. One of the challenges that we have here in Toronto is that we have two extremes.
We have one agency that wants to save them and get them out of the business, and we
have one agency-which isn't present here today-that really represents exclusively the
higher-end escort.
With women who work on the street, a lot of them live on the street. Because of the
bawdy house law, they get evicted because part of that bawdy house law says that if your
landlord knows you're working out of your place and they don't throw you out, then the
next time you're caught working out of your place, they will be charged for living off the
avails because they were aware.
The other thing 1 wanted to add is something about an indoor worker. There's a certain
amount of privilege, because you're paying $] ,000 a month for ads. A lot of women have
second apartments, so they pay two rents, two phones, and they're charging a lot more
money than on the street.
In Toronto, the low track's charging twenty bucks, the middle of the road is forty to
sixty dollars, and the high track is up to eighty dollars, whereas inside it's $160 an hour.
And $160 an hour is the beginning for inside workers. So there is a class system, and you
need to recognize that with street prostitution, some women work on the street because
they live there.
The Chair: Ms. Babcock, and then Ms. FaJle.
Ms. Wendy Babcock: I just pretty much wanted to reinforce what Maurganne
Mooney was saying. 1 wanted to clarify that only about ]7% of prostitutes do work on the
street. As a social worker, 1 can attest that the reason they are on the street is that the
street is where they live. They don't have an apartment to work out of. The rest was pretty
much well said by Maurganne, so I'll stop there.
The Chair: Ms. Faile.
543
Ms. Natasha FaIle (Counsellor, Streetlight Support Services): I just wanted to
comment that there's a huge area, bounded by Church, Gerrard, Jarvis, and Carlton
streets, that is a very organized area. I would say that probably 99% of the girls who work
in that area do have pimps and charge a $100 to $500 minimum. I know because I stood
there. They start at $] 00, which is a minimum service, and then go from $500 and up. In
my experience, every single woman] know, including me, has experienced violence.
I also want to comment about exit programs, because I believe we've been bashed quite
a bit here. First, I want to say that I believe there's a need for choice organizations as well
as exits. There's a need for both of us.
As for exit programs not helping those with lengthy records, people with huge lengthy
records, like me, need help too.
That's what I wanted to comment on.
The Chair: Thank you.
Ms. Natasha Faile: And we don't save people. We allow people to save themselves.
We give them the tools to help them to save themselves.
The Chair: Thank you.
Ms. Sheila Lipiatt: I want to take exception to a couple of the comments as a resident.
I seem to be the only one representing anybody in the community.
I am very much against street prostitution because I've seen how it affects my area of
Parkdale. A lot of the women are crack addicts. How would you like to be awakened in
the middle of the night because a lot of these girls are giving-if] can say this-blow
jobs in a car? The john comes up the residential side street so that she can perform her
services, and then there's a big squabble because she's not getting paid.
544
These are the sorts of things that are happening, so we have to be realistic about this.
That's why I'm suggesting what I'm suggesting. Make it into a business and take it all
inside.
I'm not supportive of them doing it out of their own homes, because there can be
problems with high-rise apartments and neighbours and so on. That's why it should be
conducted in a business area of the city. They operate it as a business, in an office area of
the city or town, and it's conducted like that.
No more street prostitution. That is the worst and the lowest-level fonn of prostitution
out there, and that has to stop.
The Chair: The last comment will go to Ms. Campbell, and then we'll move on to
Madame Brunelle.
Ms. Cindy Campbell: Raiding massage parlours and independent, taxpaying
prostitutes is part of the reason a lot of women end up on the streets. They lose
everything, and every dime they have goes to the lawyers.
Ms. Wendy Babcock: A person who has been charged with prostitution cannot work
in a legalized system. They cannot get a licence.
Ms. Valerie Scott: That really doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?
The Chair: Madame Brunelle.
[Translation]
Ms. Paule Brunelle: Hello and welcome.
As my party's critic and a member of the Committee on the Status of Women, 1 have
had the privilege over the past few months to hear fi'om 50 women's groups working to
improve the lot of women. 1 simply want to say that the reason I am on this committee is
545
because I am sensitive to the concerns of women and interested in anything that can help
achieve equality for them and improve their lives.
That said, I understand that some people feel that decriminalization is the solution. One
sex-trade worker told us that the fact that she had a criminal record prevented her from
achieving rehabilitation and leading a normal life in society. So it seems that this is a
major problem. I am hearing that some groups, some of you here today, are involved in
reintegration programs. I also understand that this is not something that everyone wants;
not everyone wants to reintegrate into society. I would like to know a little bit more about
the programs that you offer for women wishing to exit the sex trade.
I also have a question about Aboriginal women. I know that the situation of Aboriginal
women is very different. I was very moved by the witnesses that I heard in another
committee about the reality oflife as an Aboriginal woman. The situation is very
difficult, especially because these women are doubly marginalized, as sex workers, on the
one hand, and as Aboriginal people, on the other.
I would like you to elaborate on the difference that this makes and on the tendency of
the Canadian government to forget about these women.
I have a number of questions, but I would like to hear a bit from each of you.
[English]
The Chair: Go ahead, Madam Mooney.
Ms. Maurganne Mooney: In terms of aboriginal women, the reason I named the
report "Invisible Tragedy" is that the form of racism aboriginal people face is that we are
invisible. The government doesn't want to accept that we are still alive because it would
cost them money. We've gone from a thriving nation to now 2% of the population. It's
kind and polite to call it ethnic cleansing.
In terms of aboriginal women in sex work, there are several layers to it. Again, as I
mentioned in my report, a lot of the women who have been murdered were identified as
casual or part-time sex workers. They're involved in the street-level prostitution because,
unfortunately, there is racism within sex work as well. Unless a woman advertises as
being Italian or Spanish, which is often what happens to aboriginal people because they
look like other races, she won't be able to market her services.
546
Did youwant something specifically clarified? Did you want to know about our
programs in terms of restorative-[Translation]
Ms. Paule Brunel1e: I have heard that there was a problem regarding Aboriginal
prostitutes who had died. They were not being identified in police statistics as Aboriginal
women. The murder of a large number of Aboriginal women has been denounced by
Amnesty International and is something that must be dealt with. These deceased
prostitutes should have been identified as being Aboriginal women. That would have
allowed us to see that there really was a problem and that Aboriginal women were being
targeted and not other people. I do not know if you feel that this issue has really been
addressed now.
[English]
Ms. Maurganne Mooney: It's in the process. On the list of names I put in my report
that I've handed out to you, there was an additional list from the Edmonton Journal that I
had, and there will be more names as it comes along. It's the history of aboriginal peoples
versus the police. We have that extra layer of barrier because police were used in the
removal of children from their families to residential schools.
There's also the issue of racism, where aboriginal people are seen as a people to be
protected from, not protected. So even though we're over-policed, we highly represent
both men and women inside our jails--and those murdered. Of the murdered women on
the pig fann, 60% were aboriginal women. It's sad. Five hundred native women in our
community is equivalent to 25,000 non-native women in Canada. That's devastating to
our people.
The Chair: Are there any other comments from anyone else on exit strategies?
Ms. Beverley McAleese: As much as people like to say we're there to save people,
we're not. Streetlight has always believed that it is a person's choice what they care to do
with their life. But we certainly don't believe that when someone is 14 years old and has
become involved in this lifestyle it was ever their choice. What else were they going to
do? They were a sexually exploited child.
547
We certainly run the exit programs for people who would like to get out of the
lifestyle. But I don't deny for a minute that people come to us to get that charge
withdrawn and have no intention of exiting, or can't. exit at that time. We hope to develop
and do develop bonds with them so they continue coming back to Streetlight. When they
decide the time is right or they've had enough and they've connected with us, then we'll
continue to work with them and help them out of the lifestyle.
I think people have to respect other people's choices, especially those who want us to
respect their choices. They should respect the choices of people who decide they've had
enough and don't want to do it any more.
The Chair: Go ahead, Natasha.
Ms. Natasha FaIle: There comes a point when everyone needs to exit. Either age is
going to get you, burnout's going to get you, or violence is going to get you. Therefore
we need an exit program for those people when the time comes.
The Chair: Thank you.
Madam Milne.
Ms. Leslie Milne: I'd just like to add that I think it's really important we stick to the
reason why we're here. There are exit programs of many kinds, and people access them
all the time. The issue is, do women who are working in the sex trade deserve to have
criminal records for the rest of their lives?
Exit programs are great, and I've been to many of them myself, but I think we really
need to stick to the point. Is it just and kind to continually charge women who obviously
have so many odds stacked against them in the first place, if we're talking about
somebody who started when they're 14, or somebody who is trying to cope with systemic
racism, hatred of women, or whatever? Do they deserve to have criminal records? I think
we really need to stay focused on this.
Mr. Hanger, I just want to mention that of course we cannot solve the problem
. overnight of how this will eventually look in the future for women, men, and
transgendered people who work in the trade. But I think it's a really good place to start
from, just to acknowledge it is not just that people incur criminal charges for working in
the business.
548
That's all I wanted to say. Thank you.
The Chair: Ms. Lipiatt is next, and then we'll have to move on to Ms. Davies.
Please go ahead.
Ms. Sheila Lipiatt: I believe we have to keep in mind what the goal is here. I
understand it's to maybe change the laws regarding prostitution. You have to reach some
sort of middle ground. There are some things being said here that I don't totally agree
with, but on the other hand I did come out and say that I think overall it's better to
regulate prostitution. But there have to be degrees of what's allowed and what isn't
allowed, to meet all the criteria of what you want across this country. People in Toronto
might want one thing, and in Saskatchewan and small towns they couldn't give a hoot
about prostitution because they don't have any there, or at least they don't think they do.
Let's meet in the middle ground here, so as a resident in a community I won't have to
see something that I absolutely cannot tolerate and won't tolerate occurring outside my
home, in my face. That's why I'm here today. If you want to practise this, you have to do
it within the guidelines, just like any other profession. You know, you can't just stick a
needle into somebody and think that's okay; you have regulations as a nurse, or whatever
profession, so you need regulations as well.
The Chair: Thank you.
Ms. Davies.
Ms. Libby Davies: First of all, I'd really like to say thank you to the witnesses who
have come in for this panel-and actually for a previous panel as well-especially to
those of you who are now or have been sex workers.
I think we all understand that it's not easy to come forward. A parliamentary committee
at the best of times can be rather intimidating, so for you to come forward when you're in
a hotel, you're under public scrutiny, you're under questioning .... I just want to say that I
really appreciate the frankness and the sense of reality that you bring about in what you
say. Thank you for doing that.
549
We are also having sessions that are more informal, what we call "in camera"-they're
not being recorded and so on-because there are people who feel they can't speak out in
public. But 1 really appreciate th~ fact that you have shared some really sensitive
information about your own stories and what happened to you. They real1y do help us to
understand what's going on.
To Sheila, when this debate started twenty years ago, the response of most residents
was to get it out of their neighbourhoods because they didn't care about these people.
That has changed, and I think you, Sheila, real1y represent that to some extent, in that
maybe there's certainly more closeness of position than there was twenty years ago.
There are very strongly held points of view and very strong opinions, and that's great.
We should respect each other's views. But there's actual1y a lot of commonality here, and
maybe what we'l1 try to do in this committee is find out what that commonality is and
work with it as much as we can.
The question that I have is on the situation with aboriginal women. It has been really
shocking across this country, and it has been invisible. I see that you're advocating a
model of decriminalization-and, Valerie, you've spoken very well about what you'd like
to see. The question I have is who should be involved in that. Do you see an involvement
for municipalities, or would you be concerned about that because it would be too much of
whatever the local council happened to want?
The more we can understand how this model of decriminalization might work, the
more ir might give us some ideas. Not everybody may agree with it, of course, but I'm
very interested in ....
You spoke earlier about the fact that you could work out of your own home, but also
about the idea that you might be able to work out of a brothel. Presumably that would be
licensed by somebody. How would you see that taking place?
And if others have comments about that as wel1, they would be helpful.
W- +(1305)
Ms. Valerie Scott: In terms oflicences, the established houses would need just a
business licence, through zoning.
Ms. Libby Davies: Would you see that anywhere, or would you see it in a designated
area?
550
Ms. Valerie Scott: Yes, anywhere.
The only place that really, truly has decriminalization is New South Wales. That's how
it works there. The government was smart over there. They kept a couple oflaws, but
they modified them. For example, they kept the Disorderly Houses Act 1943, which is
now called the Restricted Premises Act 1943. If a brothel is being a nuisance to its
neighbours, it can be shut down. But the Supreme Court of New South Wales did rule
that it has to be a true nuisance. It can't be shut down just because the neighbours don't
like sex or don't like the sex trade. ]t really has to be a nuisance. And that's fair.
They also kept the 200-metre law, which is going to take some working out here if
we're going to even look at something like that.
On the municipal thing, I am so afraid that if we go that route, we will be bylawed to
death, and it will be de facto illegalization. ]t will be worse than what we have now, and I
for one won't work under that system. I'll work illegally, and many, many women will.
So ] think there should be some kind of model of federal control, but intelligently, sort
oflike how they did things in New South Wales.
Ms. Maurganne Mooney: In the report I handed out, there are recommendations from
a peer-run international sex worker agency on how decriminalization could play out and
they cover the law,. health, age of working, etc.
With regard to the aboriginal population, I certainly didn't want to attack any
organization. My point about having only two in the city is that they're two extremes of
the spectrum, and somewhere the aboriginal women get lost and they aren't represented.
I was the first aboriginal chair of Maggie's, and I found it frustrating to get violence
against women initiatives and a jail in-reach program started. I felt silenced, because I
was the only aboriginal woman. Even though we're highly represented in the busts, and
unfortunately, in the death toll, we aren't being invited to the social tables to bring out
issues that are unique.
And because of the residential schools, there is heavy sexual repression. Everybody is
having sex, but nobody is talking about it. It's kind oflike where everybody else was in
1950. That's where the aboriginal community is. Every day there's a new aboriginal
person contracting HIV and AIDS, when everybody knows to use a condom now. That's
because of the residual effect from the residential schools. So these are key issues.
We're not a special interest group. I'm happy to be here today, because I'm speaking for
those Anishinabekwe, for those women who died, and they're highly represented. I mean,
look at the numbers.
551
I'm saying that we need social programs that address other issues, in addition to
decriminalization, that we need to have more choices for sex workers to go to so it's not
all or nothing," that we have spectrum and representation that's multicultural, like Canada
lS"
Meegwetch.
Voices: Hear, hear!
:"f)
'>i/ ~t-- (13 ] 0)
The Chair: Thank you.
Ms. McAleese.
Ms. Beverley McAleese: I just wanted to ask, when we talk about
decriminalizing ... and I don't know whether Valerie wants to answer this. 1 guess I'm just
trying to understand--and maybe I've misunderstood. We've talked about being able to
have our brothels more or less anywhere in the city or work out of our apartments, our
homes, whatever. I just think if you want it decriminalized, then maybe the expectation is
to follow the same rules as for any other business.
Ifllived in an apartment building, I ce11ainly wouldn't want the guy next door who is
say a chiropractor or a dentist or whatever running his business when I would have all
these people coming up and down my elevator and going down the hall past my
apartment. I think it's a case of the regulations that would follow for where you open up,
as ] say, a chiropractor's office, a dentist's office, a massage therapist's, a psychologist's-whatever. Maybe there should be some rules around that, so it's on a par.
Ms. Valerie Scott: Yes, it's possible that can be looked at. What I'm suggesting
certainly isn't written in stone.
But it's not usually a big problem anyway. People think with decriminalization you're
going to have little brothels all over the city and there's going to be a big problem. Well,
all of those little brothels all over the city exist right now, because there are tons of
women seeing guys out of their own apartments. These women have always been very
discreet. You really wouldn't even know it. You don't know it now.
552
Ms. Beverley McAleese: But what about your safety issue, though? You know, you're
alone in that apartment, and nobody knows who has come in. And it's known .... I mean,
people don't--
Ms. Valerie Scott: I don't suggest working alone. I really don't.
Ms. Natasha Faile: But there will be people who work alone. There will be.
Ms. Valerie Scott: Yes, but look, it's their choice.
The Chair: Wendy, then Jim, then Cindy.
Wendy.
Ms. Wendy Babcock: I just want to say that when 1 worked~-and 1 worked for many,
many years--I never worked alone, ever. Of course, there are lots of occupations where
people do work alone, and they are quite dangerous--cab driving is one ofthem--and we
still legalize them, or we allow it to be okay.
1 tell women that 1 think it's better to work alone. 1 think it's better to have a man
coming to our apartment, because we know where the weapons are, we know if there's a
gun in the house, we know how many people are in that house. We don't have to worry
about a guy hiding in the washroom who's ready to spring up on us at any moment. We
don't have to worry if there's a gun in the drawer that they're going to pull out at any
moment.
And we do often work together. Quite a few people work together. It's quite natural,
and I don't see it as a problem. Of course, there will be women who choose to work
alone; that's inevitable. But that's a choice, and at least we have that choice and we're not
going to be criminalized for it.
The Chair: Jim is next, and then Cindy.
553
Mr. Jim Watkins: On decriminalization and people working in their own homes, I'd
like to reiterate just the safety aspect. They can be in a more controlled environment
going from there. If people are able to access other services or supports, whether it's
outreach workers, counsellors, or other workers, it creates that increase in safety.
The other aspect I want to address is it's interesting to hear what's referred to as the
cooperation between the community and sex workers in Toronto. But I'll tell you that in
London there is absolutely none of that. The police are completely in concert with the
community groups that have determined it is not okay to have sex work going on in
London, and they are busting people all the time.
In my job I work on Thursday and Friday nights consistently until two a.m. or three
a.m., and at any given time in our areas there are five to six cruisers looking for people,
whether they're johns, women or men working, whatever the case may be, to harass,
isolate, and bust them.
You may have something like that in Toronto, where there's cooperation going on, but
it does not exist in other communities. I think that's where the decriminalization aspect
will allow us to start to work toward that and develop safety for the individuals who are
involved in any aspects of the trade.
The Chair: Ms. Campbell.
Ms. Cindy Campbell: First of all, I want to say that I've worked alone my entire life,
and I have not been harmed at all in the business. 1 was abused and traumatized quite a
bit before I got into the business. That hasn't happened since then. My job has
empowered me to take control of my body.
I've done in-calls, out-calls, and everywhere, but the big issue right now is cameras,
cell phones. Whether I'm going to a hotel or a home, I can be taped without knowing it,
and people can make money from that tape. 1 do only out-calls, but I would prefer to do
in-calls for that reason. We seem to think that all our clients are slimeballs. Most of my
clients run this country.
The Chair: Ms. Mooney.
554
Ms. Maurganne Mooney: Talking about safety, if we go ahead and decriminalize sex
work, we're going to need to do some public education with communities as well as
police officers. ]t can be implemented in their training. Get them when they're fresh, to
understand. They've done some work to try to understand the issues of violence against
women. This is an extension of that.
When a husband beats up his wife, he's not charged with being a husband; he's charged
with what he did. The same can be said with any third-party violence, or any violence
that goes on. Keep in mind that if we go ahead and decriminalize, these women will have
what other women and other people have--the right to protection. They can call
somebody who cares, and they'll show up.
The Chair: Ms. Lipiatt is next, and then we'll go to Mr. Hanger.
Ms. Sheila Lipiatt: I'm getting a little frustrated here. ] must be the devil's advocate
here for the police and the neighbourhood. How do you know that in London there isn't a
lot of pressure being put on the police by the neighbours and neighbourhood residents
groups bringing forth these complaints? They have to follow the law as it is .
.We're here today to talk about changing the law so everybody can work more
congenially together. At the same time, some of you here almost want too much out of
this. That's why I'm for the middle of the road. Let's not have it in your own home; let's
do it as a business outside of the home. You may have no problems with it because you're
an experienced sex-trade worker, you've been doing it for years, and you know exactly
how to conduct yourself. But I can think of any number of individuals who are crackaddicted and have rented an apartment with a bunch of other girls, causing no end of
problems. Neighbours and residents do not want this, so you also have to take them into
consideration because they are paying taxes, no matter how you think of this.
Ms. Wendy Babcock: When did that come under it being disorderly-
The Chair: Excuse me, Ms. Babcock. Please let her finish.
Ms. Sheila Lipiatt: Why aren't the police here today to speak for themselves?
An hon. member: They were.
555
Ms. Sheila Lipiatt: They were? Okay, fine.
A voice: Yeah, why aren't they here?
Ms. Sheila Lipiatt: The residents also have rights. They're taxpayers. Not all sex trade
workers are taxpayers. I want to throw that one in.
I'm being supportive here, but I want you to also realize that you can't have it alL Let's
hit some middle ground here and make it good for both sides.
The Chair: We'll go to Ms. Babcock for a quick comment, and then Mr. Hanger.
Ms. Wendy Babcock: I'll let Valerie take this one.
Ms. Valerie Scott: Thank you.
What you see as middle of the road, we really don't see as middle of the road. It's one
of those things.
What I'm understanding is that you want us to work in an area or a zone. They haven't
worked in places that have them, because frankly that process is legalization. Much to
their dismay, these countries can't understand why they didn't work when the girls in the
business would told them such areas wouldn't
Anyway, we don't believe in any kind of segregation, and that's what that is. We're not
smelters or-
Ms. Sheila Lipiatt: I didn't say a zone per se. I'm saying in a business setting.
Ms. Valerie Scott: Yes, exactly, and I'm saying we do not believe in segregation.
The Chair: We're going to move on if we can't get along.
556
Ms. Sheila Lipiatt: That's not segregation.
Ms. Valerie Scott: Yes, it is. You're going to have to come over to my house and
we're going to have to talk.
Ms. Sheila Lipiatt: That would be a good idea.
The Chair: Mr. Hanger.
Mr. Art Hanger: Thank you.
I can say at this point in time that I haven't been convinced at all that the way many of
you advocate this should go is the answer to the problem. 1 think you have even said
yourselves that this isn't going to fix the.problem of violence, of sexual abuse, whether
it's against children or women, by legalizing or decriminalizing. You think it's going to-A voice: We didn't say that.
Mr. Art Hanger: You'll get a chance to talk, I'm sure, but l'm going to say a few
words here yet.
I was a police officer for 22 years. I operated as a stick on the street, dealing with street
prostitution, escort services, and professional prostitutes who ran out of the hotels and
bottle clubs. It was a different era, granted, but I saw the change in addiction, for
instance, of the gals on the street.
One I remember explicitly was a doctor's daughter who had been hooked on heroin. To
support her habit, she was on the street. It was a tragic affair. She ended up dying,
overdosing. That has become more of a norm now, when it was the exception at that
time-and we're talking about twenty-some years ago. Now you're seeing a lot more
addiction on the street.
Don't tell me that, because I know that to be true.
557
Ms. Valerie Scott: I agree. I was shaking my head because we just did a study-
Mr. Art Hanger: There's a lot more addiction on the street now, and given the set of
circumstances that we have in our country, I think it's absolutely commendable for
anyone who reaches out to any of those gals on the street who have resorted to
prostitution just to feed a habit or who have been pressed into it afterwards by a pimp or
some other individual.
So I cannot understand your thinking. Many of you have said exit programs are a bad
thing. I look at the activity even in my own city, where organizations like Servants
Anonymous, EXIT Outreach, Inn From the Cold, and Street Teams are playing a very
significant role in taking girls off the street.
One final question that really concerns me should concern everybody on this
committee. The minute we start going onto that slippery slope of what you're telling me
we should be all about, then we're going to see something happen to our youngsters on
the street, the young gals who may be 14 or 15, as they slip into this level of activity. In
Alberta, for instance, in 1999 they passed a law called the Protection of Children
Involved in Prostitution Act. Do you know how many kids they took out of prostitution
that first year? Two hundred and seventy three. That's what I have a concern about. Those
gals are going to go right through the system and end up who knows how or in what other
circumstances for the rest of their lives. ] don't want to see tha.t happen. I would rather see
our laws look after the interests of those kids in the most significant way. Nobody has
convinced me that decriminalization or legalization is going to do that--not yet.
The Chair: Thank you, Mr. Hanger.
We have a little bit less than five minutes.
Ms. Scott, then Ms. Mooney.
Ms. Valerie Scott: We're talking about adult prostitutes here; we're not talking about
children. Let me tell you, children on the street is a completely different issue, and I don't
think we should whitewash those children's problems with prostitution.
Ms. Maurganne Mooney: I work as an aboriginal youth court worker, and I'm in the
trenches with those young kids, aboriginal youth. The YCJA has come into effect. I was
just at the summit last week. The last place to put young people is in custody. It's rooted
558
in literature--detention only trains them to be better criminals. The new bill, which I
believe is still on the books, talks about detaining people.
I just wanted to mention, back on the child sex abuse, that law enforcement can be
freed up from chasing after the adults and can then focus on child sex abuse. And when
we have one in three female children being abused, and 90% are known to their
abusers .... They know their abusers; they're not strangers.
The last piece, I guess, would be the drug addiction. The police in the city of Toronto
recognize it's a health issue, and it is a devastating, unfortunate thing. Recovery is
possible; there are recovery options. With decriminalization we can treat the issue on its
own--drug addiction, alcohol addiction. Treatment centres would still be in play, and we
have drug court. It's a health issue. Should we put people in jail to detox in jail, or should
we send them to treatment centres?
Thank you.
(:) +(1325)
The Chair: Okay.
Ms. Milne, you have a one-minute final word.
Ms. Leslie Milne: Mr. Hanger, I don't disagree with exit programs, okay? So maybe
you can answer my question, then.
How is it that on the day a person turns 18, and let's say from the age of 14 to 18 they
have been labelled a sexually exploited young person, they deserve to become an adult
criminal within the adult criminal justice system, incurring a charge of communicating
for the purposes of prostitution? Can you explain that to me, please?
Mr. Art Hanger: I don't have a problem seeing the transition there at all. The fact is,
they're considered a juvenile criminal prior to becoming the adult criminal.
Ms. Leslie Milne: Wait--a sexually exploited and abused youth?
559
Mr. Art Hanger: The same charge still applies, whether you're 16 or you're 18.
Ms. Leslie Milne: So you're no longer a sexually abused youth, you're an adult
criminal?
Mr. Art Hanger: No, I think you're just trying to ... well, you're actually segregating it
there. The issue is still the same. It doesn't matter whether you're a juvenile or an adult in
the eyes of the law.
Ms. Leslie Milne: However, this is exactly why I came here today. I started doing
youth work 20 years ago, sir, and in those days they used to call the juvenile offenders
who'd been picked up for communicating "kiddy-hos". We've come a lot further now.
We're a lot more kind. We're a lot more just. I think together around this table we're
working to solve the problems that these women are encountering.
I did not come here to debate whether or not exit programs should or shouldn't exist. I
am here--
Mr. Art Hanger: Those are comments that you made.
The Chair: I think I'm going to have to intervene here.
Our time is up, Mr. Hanger, and we have to move on to another venue.
This has certainly been one of the most lively panels we've had. I feel like a referee
sometimes, instead of chair, but your input is very much appreciated.
Thank you very much. Perhaps you can continue the discussion as we leave.
The meeting is adjourned.
560
This is Exhibit
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referred to in the affidavit of
Sc.o\:-\-
----~~~---=~---------
this
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A Commissioner etc ...
sworn before me,
561
Valerie Scott
<[email protected]>
20/12/200512:56 AM
To [email protected]
cc
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Subject Fwd: SPOC MEDIA RELEASE.
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From: Valerie [email protected]>
Date: December
2005~~37:35 AM EST
To: SP~C membe~
Subject: Fwd: SP~C MEDIA RELEASE.
?D,
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Subject:
SP~C
MEDIA RELEASE.
Attention Media: December 20, 2005
MEDIA ALERT:
HOLIDAY GIFTS SENT TO ALL 308 MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT FROM PROSTITUTES.
Sex Professionals of Canada (SPOC) has posted letters with a
chocolate coin to a·ll 308 Members of Parliament to mark International
Day to End Violence Against Sex Workers ( December 17) and the
twentieth 'anniversary' of the implementation of the communicating
law, section 213, ( December 21 ). We are urging that all consenting,
adult sex work be decriminalized in Canada.
At least six hundred (600) Canadian sex workers have gone missing or
have been murdered since the Mulroney government passed the
Communicating Law on December 21, 1985. For the past twenty years the
federal government has been sending out a clear message:
That we are a societal nuisance and disposable.
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In response, we are sending a clear message:
That we are human beings, and are entitled to basic human and work
place rights, like everyone else.
For further information contact Valerie Scott, Executive Director of
SPOC at (416) 364-5603 or Laurel Ronan, SPOC spokesperson at (416)
783-2916. Further spokespeople are Wendy Babcock (416) 731-1389, Amy
Lebovitch (416) 909-4682 and Danielle Sheppard (416) 970-3261.
See Attached letter to MPs.
Dear Honourable Sir/Madame:
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Congratulations - you're now a pimp under Canadian law! Under section
212 of the Canadian Criminal Code (procuring), part J, "Everyone who
lives wholly or in part on the avails of prostitution of another
person is guilty of an indictable offense and is liable to
imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years." Under our current
laws, receiving this holiday gift of a chocolate coin from the
prostitutes of Sex Professionals of Canada, makes you a pimp.
It's this kind of absurdity that makes life unsafe for sex workers in
Canada. The procuring law was ostensibly designed to protect sex
workers. In actuality, what this law does is prevent us from
participating in virtually any relationship whatsoever. It puts our
spouses/lovers, friends, roommates and even our children if they are
over twelve years of age at risk, as they can be charged with living
on the avails of our work.
This is ensured under part 3 of the law: "Evidence that a person
lives with or is habitually in the company of a prostitute, in the
absence of evidence of the contrary, proof that the person lives on
the avails of prostitution." This law forces our loved ones and
everyone we know to prove their innocence by demonstrating that they
have not received anything from us or that they have even been
habitually in our company!
Sex workers are equipped with the same intellectual capacity as any
other person. We are fully able to make decisions about our
relationships and how to spend our earnings. If a sex worker is in an
abusive situation, there are already laws in place to deal with that,
laws such as those against forcible confinement, assault, sexual
assault, extortion, criminal hara~sment etc. There is no need to
criminalize our everyday healthy r"elationships.
Section 213 of the Canadian Criminal Code (communicating) is our de
facto death penalty. Twenty years ago on December 21 1985, the
Mulroney government implemented the communicating law. Partly as a
result of this law, at least six hundred of our colleagues are either
missing or have been murdered. A large proportion of these sex
workers are Aboriginal or another visible minority. Section 213
forces us to always be wary of police, and leaves us vulnerable to
the predators who despise us. Section 213 sends a powerful message
that we are a societal nuisance and disposable.
Furthermore, section 210 of the Canadian Criminal Code (bawdyhouse)
makes it impossible for us to conduct business behind closed doors in
the security of our familiar surroundings. If we do so, there are
serious legal repercussions, such as imprisonment for up to two
years. Because bawdyhouse laws fall under the 'enterprise crime'
legislation, the authorities can - and routinely do - seize all of
our possessions and funds. In our attempts to work safely, we can be
incarcerated and left with nothing.
All of these laws serve to demonize, endanger and divorce sex workers
from the rest of society.
If the federal government is truly concerned with our well being,
then you as an elected official have a moral obligation to abolish
sections 210, 212 and 213 of the Canadian Criminal Code, and
decriminalize all consenting adult sex work.
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We wish you a happy holiday, and best of luck on your election
campaign.
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Sincerely on behalf of SPOC,
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Valerie Scott
Executive Director
Sex Professionals of Canada
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>
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Sex Professionals Of CanadA
251 OIlUlrio Strl.-'et Toronto Onlnrio Cnnnd.\ MM ;lV6
Phone: (4161364-5603 Email: \'lIcott(iliil)Qc.CIl WI'bHltj': WWW.lipoc,(:!\
Dear Right Honourable Paul Martin,
Congratulations-you're now a pimp under Canadian law! Under section 212 of the
Canadian Criminal Code (procuring), part J, "Everyone who lives wholly or in part on the
avails ofprostitution ofanother person is guilty ofan indictable offense and is liable to
imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years ". Under our current laws, receiving this
holiday gift of a chocolate coin from the prostitutes of Sex Professionals of Canada,
makes you a pimp.
It's this kind of absurdity that makes life unsafe for sex workers in Canada. The
procuring law was ostensibly designed to protect sex workers. In actuality, what this law
does is prevent us from participating in virtually any relationship whatsoever. It puts our
spouses/lovers, friends, roommates and even our children if they are over twelve years of
age at risk, as they can be charged with living on the avails of our work.
This is ensured under part 3 of the law: "Evidence that a person lives with or is habitually
in the company ofa prostitute, in the absence of evidence of the contrary, proof that the
person lives on the avails ofprostitution. " This law forces our loved ones and everyone
we know has to prove their innocence by demonstrating that they have not received
anything from us or that they have even been habitually in our company!
Sex workers are equipped with the same intellectual capacity as any other person. We are
fully able to make decisions about our relationships and how to spend our earnings. If a
sex worker is in an abusive situation, there are already laws in place to deal with that,
laws such as those against forcible confinement, assault, sexual assault, extortion,
criminal harassment etc. There is no need to criminalize our everyday healthy
relationships.
Section 213 of the Canadian Criminal Code (communicating) is our de facto death
penalty. Twenty years ago on December 21 1985, the Mulroney government
implemented the communicating law. Partly as a result of this law, at least six hundred of
our colleagues are either missing or have been murdered. A large proportion of these sex
/
565
workers are Aboriginal or another visible minority. Section 213 forces us to always be
wary of police, and leaves us vulnerable to the predators who despise us. Section 213
sends a powerful message that we are a societal nuisance and disposable.
Furthermore, section 210 of the Canadian Criminal Code (bawdyhouse) makes it
impossible for us to conduct business behind closed doors in the security of our familiar
surroundings. If we do so, there are serious legal repercussions, such as imprisonment for
up to two years. Because bawdyhouse laws fall under the 'enterprise crime' legislation,
the authorities can-and routinely do-seize all of our possessions and funds. ln our
attempts to work safely, we can be incarcerated and left with nothing.
All of these laws serve to demonize, endanger and divorce sex workers from the rest of
society.
If the federal government is truly concerned with our well being, then you as an elected
official have a moral obligation to abolish sections 210, 212 and 213 of the Canadian
Criminal Code, and decriminalize all consenting adult sex work.
We wish you a happy holiday, and best ofluck on your election campaign.
Please respond.
Sincerely on behalf of SPOC,
Valerie Scott
Executive Director
Sex Professionals of Canada