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GOLDORAK Euphorien... Forum Goldorak
Pagina 1 di 7
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Pagina2 di7
GOLDORAK Euphorien... - Forum Goldorak
H
i 269
Posté le 06/0 S/2OA4 r2:32;4Q
*&fStgHaÉ
,Je n'avais jamais entendu parler de cette histoire de clon€s,
tu te
souviens de la source?
H
Mike
Messages postés : 205
it's nice to be important,
ffiist*É
Posté le 06/0 B/20A4 12:50 : 25
Mais c'est dans ce forurn mème qu'il a ete question de Ea. le ne me
souviens plus qui en a parlé, il faudrait relire tout les vieux topics,
mais c'est relatívement récent.
but it's more important to be
nicel
*EDÍT*
il est également question de clonage ici:
http //pri nce. a cta ru s. f ree. f r/ myste res. h t m
:
RETOUR SUR EUPHOR
Actarus et Phénícia retournent seuls sur Euphor. Comment vont-ils
repeupler la planéte puisqu'ils sont frères et soeurs ? ;-)
REPONSE : Euphor maitrisait toutes les techniques de clonage,
fécondation in-vitro, etc. Les nouveaux euphoriens naîtront à partir
des banques de gènes restées intactes dans des abris antiatomiques.
le suppose que ce sont des informations issues des
Mangas.
--Message edité par mike le 2004-08-06 1313O:21-Speed is a guestion of money ... how fal-t can you go?
glÉlÉ
Super bien répondu Mikel Belle histoire de départ de la sériel 0
Piepie
EI
posté
r-a6q8paa4L6:16:21
&{#t
"truc" que je comprends pas trés bien, c'est cette histoire de
ressemblance entre Goldorak et leur dieu protecteurl?!!
Si quelqu'un avait une image de leur Dieu protecteur, ce seraít plus
clair.... @
Merci pour ta réponse Mikel {D&
Le seul
Bf
sous!
H
Posté le 06/0S12004 17:02:13
Bizarre.
Orion Quest
H
Messages postes : 23O
Je suis le Prince d'Euphor!
Le Maître de la Terrelll
http
:
I I 29
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boa
rd
,
*&*fi&gterÉ
.
Posté le 06/0 8/ZaO4 L7:25:26
ru{éteÉ
À moins que je ne rne tromp€, il n'y a jamais eu d'image du "Dieu
Protecteur" diffusée dans la série TV, Il a pu y avoir eu une référence
.
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Pagina 3 di7
GOLDORAK Euphorien.., - Forum Goldorak
dans la VO, mais c'est une info qui a éte retranchée dans la version
franEaise. Ils nous ont plutót "fait croire" que Goldorak avait ete créé
par Véga, ou etait un amalgame entre La technologie Euphor-Vé 9a,
et volé par Actarus...
Pour ce qui est du manga,
26e
H
j€ ne suis
pas en mesure de réPondre,
Posté le 06/0 BlZAa4l7:30:38
Réponse
*8"!ISeEilÉ
:
rrion Quest a
dit :
moins que je ne me troffiP€, il n'y a lamais eu d'image du "Dieu
rotecteur" diffusée dans la série TV. Il a pu y avoir eu une
éférence dans la VO, mais c'est une info qui a été retranchée dans
a version francaise.
Exact(et dans le manga de Go Nagai nen plus(celui de Gosaku Ota, je
ne rn'en sCIuviens pas)) On en parle, maiE aucune image n'est
montree
Davíd
Messages postés
I
Métamorphose
'ri.'
''l
;:,
:
423
H
Posté le 06/0 B/2AO4 L7:56:2t
Réponse
VDadit:
-,:i;t.
tÈdt8É
;
a'.irt
act(et dans le manga de Go Nagai non plus(celui de Gosaku Ota,
e ne m'en souviens pas)) On en parle, mais aucune image n'est
ntree
Dans le manga de Gosaku Ota, le "Dieu protecteur" (assimilé à
Goldorak) se nomme "Raaga"-... et on en voit bien des images.... la
tète étant ressemblante en partie à celle de Goldorak (les pointes sur
la tète, 4 cornes)
H
Posté Ie O6/0 B/20a4 18:11 :23
ffi$S*HsÉ
Ce serait possible de voir ces images??
Biso us
David
Messages postes : 423
Métamorphose!
.'l:-
l:
@
!
Posté Ie o6/08/2004 18;16:56
..:rì_{::.
Ca aurait eté avec
http
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joier mais mlheureusement dans mon cas, je n'ai
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Pagina 4
GOLDORAK EuPhorien... - Forum Goldorak
di7
pas de SCanner pour le faire.,.. peut-ètre quelqu'un d'autre pou rrait
numériser ces irnages à ma Place??
H
ostés
{bjS&et+àrÉ
Poste te oo/o Blzaa4 1E:51 :05
OUUHHI Dommage!l
Bisoust
Stéphane Dumas
El
poste te 06108/2004
H
Posté le
A {# t e É
23100125
Wasím a des screenshots de l'épisode 13 ou Actarus répare Goldo rak
de I'intérieur, la ressemblance avec "l'ossature" de la secoupe
amirale d'Hydargos
http : //www.grend izer. net/Grendizer-Tech nical. html (tout en bas de
la page)
O7
1A#&etts'É
/0812oO411 :09:56
Ne pleure plus ami Piepi€, ton image est là
htt p: / / ganda l. f ree .fr/Raaga .j pg
:
A+
€
What you may have learned and what you think you know...
Mike
H
it's nice to be irnportant,
nice
!
Posté le 07 f AB/2A04 15:34: 15
m{s&sÉ
IMHO, Euphor est une planète pacifique, pratiquement désarmée
(tout comme Alderande dans La guerre des etoiles) avec une avance
technologique phénoménale et ou le clonage est pratiqué afin de
conserver les gènes les plus précieux. Son Roi est un homme
respecté dans le Sénat galactique et le peuple d'Euphor est bien dégu
que se n'est pas lui qui a éte élu Roi de la galaxie, mais un certain
Véga, Roi de Stykades, planète spartiate aux méthodes douteuses'
Le Roi d'Euphor sent la menace qui pèse sur la galaxie. Ce Véga a
tout d'un tyran qui plongera la galaxie dans le chaos et la
destruction. Seul esoir à I'horizon: son fils Actarus qui va épouser la
fille de Véga, Végalía. Peut-étre que ce mariage convaincra le
nouveau Roi de la galaxie à enterrer ces projets de conquète de
l'hunivers.
Euphor sera I'une des premières victimes .., de monstrueux robots
de combat dévastent la planète et le Prince d'Euphor est obligé de
fuir à bord de Goldorak, une merveilleuse machine de guerre,à
I'image du Dieu protecteur, Ragaa construit à I'occasion de la
naíssance du Prince. Goldorak est donc aussi "vieux" qu'Actarus
(donc pfus ancien que les deux Mazingers ...)
King Gori est une machine de Stykades, à I'image du Dieu
Véga,Grand Stratéguerre, fabriqués par le génial Dantus, Ministre de
la défense. Il est en quelque sorte le double maléfique de Goldorak.
--Message edité par mike le 2004-08-07 15:37;03-Speed is a question of money ... how fast can you 90?
LVD
http: I I 29 84 3 . ace
boa
H
Poste E A7 lOUZgA4 16:51 :22
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Pagina 5 di7
>son Roi est un homme respecté dans le sénat galactique et le
peuple d'Euphor est bien dégu que se n'est pas lui qui a été élu Roi
de la galaxie, maís un certain Véga, Roí de Stykades, planète
spartiate aux méthodes douteuses.
Les elections etaient truqueesf !
H
Suzi
I am not an alien but I
arn
ffi
Posté le 0B/0 e/2A04 0B :7t:4A
tB{*l
'ÈeÉ
unique I noted the discussiCIn about the possibility of "cloning" to repopulate
Fleed.
With all my respect, Mike, it is quite a genial idea but I don't think
that ít was possible, for the following reasons:
"Clone" is Simpfy defíned as an animal or a plant made from the cells
of another animal or plant and therefore exactly like it, and
genetica lly identica l.
Even if Fleedians were able to master cloning techniques, where is
the genetic material that they were going to work with? What I mean
is if Planet Fleed was completely destroyed in the Vegan attacks as
indicated in the anime then all these genes that were stored
somewhere must have been damaged. So what are they going to
work with?
Ok even if we assume that some plants, animals and fleedians
survived the war, then where is the infrastructure that they will use
to clone, and clone who, and where?
ÍMHO, I think thatplanet Fleed has not been completely annihialated
in the Vegan wars, and just like Maria, DF, Naida and Cain, there are
certainly míllions of others who survived the war scattered in the
universe, and others who remained on Fleed all along, and they were
behínd its "resurrection" and the neutralisation of the harmful rays,
and therefore there would be to no need to clone Fleedians but
rather plants and animals if needed. Life always finds a way
naturally.
"Nothing in fife is to be fearecl. It is only to be understood."".'....Marie Curie
"Patience achieves more than strength or fury"..,,La Fontaine
Mike
but it's more irnportant to be
nice
I
H
Posté le 08/0812004 16 :30 : 34
S W"tt Suzi, the cloning theory is just an element of the mangas
(unfortunately, so different from the TV series) but IMHO one of the
coolest ways to describe the resurrection of Fleed. Just like you I try
to fínd a realistic way to explain plot holes. @ You'te welcome!
Speed is a question of money .,, how fast can you go?
Dantus
*"&$teÉ
H
Posté teog/o8/2004 16:38;12
ike a
ffi+:f,tgÉ
dit :
ing Gori est une machine de Stykades, à l'image du Dieu
éga,Grand Stratéguerrer tabriqués par le génial Dantus, Ministre de
http I I 29 84 3 . a ce b o a rd . n eUp -29843
:
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Pagina 6 di7
GOLDORAK Euphorierì... - Forum Goldorak
l!,, g?.lqpl*.. ,I.
?gts!-gg.!9.ig tgsg
Je ne suis pas d'accord
ls.-{gub-f
* T3JÉIggg,989J9.9H!'J
!
King Gori n'est pas à l'image du grand stratéguerre (qui n'est
absolument pas un dieu mème pour les véghiens l). Il est une sorte
de gorille (un animal de Stykadès qui en est trés proche qu'on
appltte le gori) qui a été gigantisé, puis cybernétisé avec le plus
grand soin sous ma direction et selon mes plans.
Dire qu'íl est à I'image du grand stratéguerre seraít l'insulter mème si
personnellement ga ne me fait ni chaud ni froid.
If n'a pas été congu comme un rival à Goldorak, comme je I'ai déjà
dit, il est d'une conception révolutionnaire qui permettait de
conquérir les planètes sans les irradier avec nos rayons au
lasernium !
J'avais decide de lancer ce projet aprés la dévastations d'Euphor'
Mais à propos de cette dévastation, n'oublíez pas qu'elle n'a pas été
totale et que des euphoriens ont survécu ! Ils se sont réfugíés dans
des abris et ont tenu bon jusqu'à ce que la planète redevíenne
vivable
I
Donc ne vous inquiétez pas, Actarus n'a rien fait d'immoral pour
repeupler sa planète I
--Message edité par dantus le 2004-08-08 16:40138-Alizée for ever
Mike
nice
H
I
I
*
Posté le 08/o BI2AO416:56:06
0 Oupuis Star Wars, tout le monde crois que cloner c'est mal. Les
Euphoriens sont des cloneurs et ce sont pourtant les gentils,@
!
T'inquíetes pas Dantus, je voig parfaitement la difference entre les
mangas et notre série culte, g
Speed is a question of rnoney ... how fast can yCIu 90?
t$;;;."
ilgrv-m
A*erà.
..-*\
t5/coldorak
@noLDoRAK
repondrc
n$rtu*du ru;ct
Ha
Lesfavoris
:J
ut
oo
fY a:outer une réponse
rapide
Ajouter une réponse rapide
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lM
Pagina 1 di 16
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Auteur ;
Dantus
ft4essaqes postés
Sujet; GOLDORAK Euphorien,,.
H
Posté le 0B/0U2AA4
1
6: 59 ;43
Bas
Lil-Égfiú
:
Réponse :
ike a dit :
at
Depuis Star Wars, tout le monde crois que cloner c'est mal, Les
uphoriens sont des cloneurs et ce sont pourtant les geniltr.@
'inquietes pas Dantus, Je vois parfaitement la différence entre les
àr'ìqas et notre série culte. g
OuÍ bon euh, c'est pas vraiment ce à quoije pensais en disant rien de
mal ! N'oublies pas que Phénicia et Actarus sont frère et soeur et
qu'une rumeur malsaine a couru sur eux I
Et mème moi, je n'y aijamais cru et je la déments fermement !
Alizee for ever
Mike
nice
!
i
trsjdS*É
H Posté le OB/O B/2O04 1 7:Lg;Zt
je connais cette rumeur ignoble. "Les nuits d'hiver doivent ètre rudes
sur Euphor ... sans parler de la gueule de la déscendance ..." Forum
de Pambou {B
--Message edité par mike le 2004-08-08 17tZI:L3--
Speed is a question of money ... how fast can you go?
http:(129843. aceboard. neUp -29843-1 239-8820-1. htm
15108
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Pagina 2 di 16
Suzi
I am not an alien but I am
H
*^*$tfrÉ
Posre fe oglo glzoo4
La:z;zg
for
being
so
curious,
Mike, but since you know the maflg?,
Sorry
unioue
' there are a few questions that
I would like to ask if you don't mind.
@
How did the story end in the manga? Díd they return to Fleed, or
stay on Earth?
I am not sure where I read that DF was going to attack EaÉh in the
end to claim it as his own. And where does Rubina fit in the picture
as I also read somewhere that Zuril wasn't killed and was trying to
save Earth?
In which manga did they say that the Fleedians were cloned, and
how did it corne about?
Too many questions, I know, but I am really curious. Sorryl G
--Message edité par suzi le 2004-08-09 1O:36:35--
"Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood."........Marie Curie
"Patience achieves more than strength or fury",.,.La Fontaine
Mike
H
nice
I
Posté le 09/0 Sl2OA412:47 :50
r*$*ff,É
Go Nagai's original manga ended abruptly before the series and has
no real end. The whole ambience of it was different, much more
violent, so almost all manga readers were a bit disappointed to find
out that the official end ís the one of the seríes for both, the series
and the *ungu. @
Later, Nagai wrote an end for the Grendizer manga, where Zuril, a
ecowarior, goes haywire and decides to kill Vega in order to stop the
war, but it's too late, nuclear missiles are already on the way to
destroy our blue planet and only a few survive! I don't know what
happens with Zuril at the end,or if they return to Fleed or stay on
earth, unfortunately t haven't read this work. @
The clone thing is listed below:
http : / I pri nce.actarus.fre e.frf mysteres. htm
???
0 I'*
not able to verify the authenticity of these informations. It was
mentioned by somebody here in the forum and in this homepage:
htt p: / / pri nce. actarus.free .fr/
--Message edité par mike le ZOO4-OB-09 L4:32:25-Speed is a question of money... how fast can you go?
Mike
nice
I
H
Posté le 0910 Bl2AA414;01 :19
1s$&eÉ
Well, I have some news for you Suzi, In the manga, Vega is killed by
a clone of Gandal, Zuril dies at the end and also all vegans. In the
manga the vegan are genetically modífied eafthlíngs not aliens. The
story ends with a devastated earth. Koji and Hikaru are in the search
of other survivors while Sayaka, Maria and Daisuke are in hibernation
in the inside of Raaga (another robot) and Grendizer. @
--Message edité par mike le 2004-08-CI9 14:19:38-Speed is a question of money .., how fast can you go?
lrlike
El
but it's more ímportant to be
nice
!
http: I I 29 84 3 . ace
boa
posté
te0e/0e/2004r7257:5o
& {{f *t g É
This manga isn't from Go Nagai but from Gosaku Ota. Maybe, that
cfoning was just an unexploited idea in Nagaí's mind or better, he
invented it when he was asked how the Fleedian could reapper in the
se ries.
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--Message edité par mike le 2AQ4-08-09 17;58:48--
Speed is a question of money ,.. how fast can you go?
Suzi
I am not an alien but I am unique
H
Poste le 1 A/A8/2004 o1 :00:31
*&t#SfIÉ
Thanks Mike for this information, and not only for that but also for
taking the trouble to search for answers for my questions. I deeply
appreciate it, matel 6
Ohl Those manga writers really have wild imagínation. S
Even though I am not convinced that cloning could be an explanation
because there are much simpler and more reasonable alternatives,
because if DF and Maria were the sole Fleedian survivors then they
would only clone themselves that is if they really had the means, the
knowledge and the infrastructure to do it (which in my opinion is
very unlikely). I don't think that cloning was Nagai's idea, it probably
was some fans explanation of the ending.
"The Vegans are genetically modified Earthlings"... cool thinking, oh
dear! You know, I would probably call them unsightly mutations
(especÌally that of that Gandal and the first Lady Gandal stuck in his
head) t-olr €gC
If I remember correctly utiti 77 mentioned on the previous forum
that Fleedians too came from Greek orígins..,.something to do with
Atlantis or something.
Anyway,
endíng.
I really prefer the anime, even it has a very disappointing
--Message edité par suzi le 2004-08-10 01:06:32--
"Nothing in tife is to be feared. It is only to be understood.",.....,.Marie Curie
"Patience achieves more than strength or fury",..,La Fontaine
Gerdha
Hikaru still rules!!!
H
Posté Íe 1A/AB/2004 11:06r31.
lAi#S*É
Go Nagai was not involved in Gosaku Ota's manga, and as a matter
of fact he disliked his work. As a demonstration, Ota's manga is not
even cited in the Mazinger Bible between the "references" for
Grendizer (there is only a little picture of Raaga robot without any
comment). So the cloning story and the idea that both Vega and
Fleed population were races coming from the same ancestral i.e.
Atlantis (: from Earth) was an Ota's idea. And actually, I don't
believe in any involvement of Go Nagai in Ota's manga considering
how Duke Fleed's personality is displayed in the latter, which is in
contrast not only with the anime (where Nagai participated
personally as proved by the Roman Album) but with Nagai's own
manga too. It's true that Nagai - like the most part of mangaka loves to reprise his own works sometime, but even when changing
the storyline he never modifíes character's personalities (see the
various edítions of Devilman or Violence Jack or even Mazinger
saga). So Gosaku Ota's manga can be consídered as a sort of "spinoff" story but not a reliable source for any discussion about
Dynamic's Grendizer.
Instead, the Roman Album explains "officially" the ídea of the
authors behind the resurrection of Planet Fleed and the end af ep74.
In the "fandom" section of the book, the editor answers to a specific
question of a fan about how could possibly Fleed which should have
been a dead planet have come back to life "Because on Planet Fleed
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underground there's an extraordinary vital life: even when given the
impression to be a dead planet, it was like that only on surface. One
day, the vital life which was sleeping in the deep underground,
coming to the light would give back life to Planet Fleed", And about
another question referred to the fact that apparently brother and
sister alone should get married and repopulate Fleed, the editor
explains that "They could not wed, but Planet Fleed inhabitants who
were fugitives here and there on various planets, getting to know
that their native planet has come back to life, would all return again
there".
So, even according to the Roman Album, Planet Fleed was
completely destroyed by the vegatron bomb pollutions and no form
of life could live there up to the moment when that "internal life"
started a quick renovation process. Duke Fleed knew that Fleed was
a dead planet as he witnessed the explosion (he even believed to be
the only survívor up to ep25), and also King Vega himself was sure
the planet was not available to host any form of life (ep72) and he
should have known better. This is coherent with the whole anime
information, excluding Naida's words ín ep25 - but I firmly believed
she lied to Duke Fleed both in the living room and in the hangar for a
serie of reasons; as the developing team of ep25 and ep72 is the
same, I think this should mean something.
So, to me the end of the anime is not a problem for the concept, but
for its realisation. Such a story should have deserved a deeper and
articulated development, while instead the cartoon rushes in the last
episodes like the authors had an issue of some sort hurrying them
(and I suppose it was a budget problem, as the concerns about the
ratings had been overcome after MariaGrace's introduction). I have
the impression that the closure of the anime could not benefit of an
adequate scriptwritíng because something forced the team to shorten
it. If I compare the usual Tamura's scripts with eps73-74I am
astonished for his change of approach, without talking of the last 5
minutes af ep74, which are probabfy the most insignificant scenes of
the whole anime. I can only suppose that Toei somehow forced the
developing team to change something, especially for the very final of
the story. Alcor was explicitly supposed to go to Fleed in ep73, so
there is no reason to think otherwise about venusia, while instead
both earthlings remain on Earth in the end. As the script comes from
the same person in ep73 &.74, my idea is that Toei disagreed with
the original idea of the whole Grendizer Team returning to Fleed, and
obliged to a sudden rework of the script in order to let Koji to remaín
on Earth and to allow consequently the possibility to have further
chapters of the Mazinger saga (which in reality didn't happen
because Dynamic and Toei cancelled their contract few months later
because of Gaiking copyrights).
Back to original Piepie's post... well, the sense of guiltiness of Duke
Fleed for his behaviour during the attack to Fleed (and in my opinion
also before it, but thís is another story which I have no time to
develop here and now) IS the MAIN storyline of Grendizer anime.
The 74 episodes are in my humble opinion designed to tell the story
of his personaljourney to fight and overcome them,
Suzi
Messages postés ; 305
I anr not an afien but I
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atî
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nstead, the Roman Album explains "officially" the idea of the
ruthors behind the resurrection of Planet Fleed and the end of e974.
n the "fandom" section of the book, the editor answers to a specific
uestion of a fan about how could possibly Fleed which should have
een a dead planet have come back to life "Because on Planet
leed underground there's an extraordinary vital life: even
rhen given tÈe impression to be a dead planet, it was like that only
n suriace. One day, the vital life which was sleeping in the deep
nderground, coming to the light would give back life to Planet
Very interesting indeed Gerdha. Do they explain what kind of vital life
it was? Was it Fleedians and other creatures living secretly in cities
undergound or what exactly? What does "vital life" mean?
Réponse i
erdha a dit :
d about another question referred to the fact that apparently
other and sister alone should get rnarried and repopulate Fleed,
he editor explains that "They could not wed, but Planet Fleed
nhabitants who were fugitives here and there on various planets,
tting to know that their native planet has corne back to life, would
tl return aqain there"
I arn very glad to have been right about this all the time.
Réponse
g
:
rdha a dit
or even according to the Roman Album, Planet Fleed was
ompletely destroyed by the vegatron bomb pollutions and no form
f life could live there up to the rnoment when that "internal life"
tarted a quick renovation process. Duke Fleed knew that Fleed was
dead planet as he witnessed the explosion (he even believed to be
he only survivor up to ep25), and also King Vega himself was sure
he planet was not available to host any form of tife (ep72) and he
hould have known better. This is coherent with the whole anime
nforrnation, excluding Naidat words in ep25 - but I firmly believed
he lied to Duke Fleed both in the living room and in the hangar for
serie of reasons; as the developing team of ep25 and ep72 is the
me. I think this should rnean somethin
:
Well Gerdha, Tamura was the writer of both ep 30 and ep 7L, and
they contradict each other in many ways particulary about the origin
of DF's lethal injury (we atl know that and we have had more than
one díscussion about it), so why should take foregranted that
Mashima didn't make a mistake in writing both ep 25 and 72?
Besides, please jarr my memory, in which episode does DF say that
Planet Fleed was completely destroyed by the Vegatron bomb, and
how did he witness that if he escaped from the planet with Grendizer
straíght into Space? What I mean is, if Planet Fleed were totally
uninhabitable how did the Vegans stay there buildíng Grendizer?
Apparently from the anime confusíng events of ep 30 DF has
contracted his injury from the exploding vegatron bomb long before
being captured by the Vegans and then escaping with Grendizer into
Space.
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DF may have mistakenly thought
that Planet Fleed was annhiliated
but what is his proo8 He witnessed the assassination of his parents
but how díd he see the complete destruction of his planet? A nuclear
bomb thrown here or there doesn't mean the complete anniliatíon of
a planet unless it was a super bomb, and apparently from the anime
this Vegatron is not a strong radiation after all, and it has a very
short half life, so what exact long term harm can it do? If it were
really lethal DF would have dead from his arm wound long time ago,
and everyone around hím would affected by the radio- emissions
from it too.
Vega thought that too, but still what ís his proof? From the anime we
learnt that there so many things that slipped his tight supervision
and control (e.9. ep 7 where Blacki betrayed Gorman, and ep 52-53
when Dantus was betrayed and killed by Zuril and Gandal, and many
many other events). Being in supreme power doesn't mean that he
automatically knows everything that happens behind his back. Some
soldiers may have decided to disobey him and not annhilíate the
planet with totally destructive bombs or else, who knows.....
But the way, I am really curious to understand what the authors
meant by "vital internal life", so if you have any more information
about that kindly let me know.
And one last thing, even though I too think that Nagai wasn't behind
the ídea that Fleedians and Vegans were both mutations from
Earthlíngs or oríginally from Atlantis, but some explanation has to be
found to explain the compatibilíty of DF's "afien" blood with goup O
negative "earthlíng" blood of Hikaru, because scientifically it is
impossible. You know we share 98o/o of Chimpanzee's DNA, yet I am
not aware that human and chimp's bloods are compatible otherwise
Blood Banks around the world wouldn't be so desperate for
donations. Therefore I can see where Ota got that Atlantian origin
theory from.
--Message edité par suzi le 2004-08-12 O3:14:49--
"Nothing in life is to be feared, It is only to be understood."........Marie Curie
"Patience achieves more than strength or fury"..,.La Fontaine
Gerdha
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Putting together the various information spread here and there on
the anime, I understand that a serie of Vegatron bombs was
launched just when Duke Fleed was escaping from his prison to
recuperate Grendizer, and he is contaminated by a "light"
concentratíon of radiations (ep30) at the injury taken from the rniníUFO when saving Morusu (ep71). But Vega exploded a last bomb more powerful of the others - when he was fighting with Grendizer
against mini-UFOs in the sky. That's why he decided to abandon the
fight and escaping in the universe; he was sure to be the only
survivor and he could not do anything more for his planet. He clearly
is convinced to be the only fleedian alive up to meeting Naida, and
there should be a serious reason for his belief. If he believed that a
síngle other fleedian was still alive on his planet, I am sure he would
have acted differently, or at least he would have tried a comeback
soon after recovering on Earth for a while, instead to reinvent himself
in a complete dífferent life that clearly he would have loved to pursue
forever if Vega didn't attack Earth. On the other hand, also King Vega
was convinced about the total destruction of Fleed, and Rubina too.
From ep72 happenings, I underctand that Fleed was located at the
very peripheral side of Vega Emprre, and nobody took Fleed into
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consideration for years, even flying in the nearby, as everybody was
convinced it was useless, even as a prison or something like that. Of
course, the only explanatíon is that it was a dead planet because of
vegatron pollutions. On the other side, VO in ep2 states enough
clearfy that Fleed was the first pfanet to be attacked by Vega Empire,
so itk understandable that Vega could not have a proper control of
its own weapons at that time, maybe they did not experimented
them adequately before using. This is enough linked with Japan itself
experíence: after all, Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been a sort of
sad "field test" for USA.,.. so I cannot exclude that this idea was
present in Author's mind in Grendizer. Actually, in the whole anime
no other planet than Fleed is presented as completely wiped out by
Vega: they can be conquered and "destroyed" but not transformed in
complete dead lands by pollutions, as a confirmation that Planet
Fleed suffered of a particular destiny because it was the first one to
be attacked. Based on Fleed experience, Vega never repeated
afterwards the same mistake wíth other planets.
About the "vital life", from the wording of Roman Album I understand
that ít consists of a sort of a "vital power" of Planet Fleed. For sure
it's not intended to refer to people living in the underground or
similar, the wording implies instead the concept of an internal
energy, You know, even today scientists are struggling about the
internal composition of Planet Earth, we don't have nothing more
than hypothesis up to now about what's in the deep underground and
heart of our planet. We don't own at the moment the instruments to
investigate adequately, and scientists are making assumptions on the
basis of reasonings and obseruing some natural events on the
surface, and nothíng mere, still we don't have sure informatíon.
Months ago, for example, a scientific team has discovered that form
of lives exist in the deep ocean when light never shínes and pressure
is unbearable, and this contradicts all our previous convinciments
about what is needed to "life" for existing. The scientific community
is currently wondering for an explanation. There are tons of things
we are not sure about, and also those assumptions we take for
granted could be wrong. So, there is no strangeness to me in the
Authors of Grendizer supposing that the deep underground of Planet
Fleed owned a sort of '-positive energy", able to enhance the
possibility of its suface to cancel vegatron pollution consequences
and start a sort of quick "inverting process". Please note that always
Rubina refers in VO to Planet Fleed coming back to life as a still
ongoing process, not a completed one (and this reinforces my ideas
about the timeline of the final of ep74... anyway, this is a different
topic).
Finally about the cloning idea.,. I didn't mean that Ota's scripttrick
was stupid: to imagine that both Fleed and Vega races came from
the same earthlíng origíns was not smart in the specificity (I am sick
of Atlantís myth being placed everywhere to explain whatever. but
it's my personal issue of course) but anyway intelligent as an overall
concept and could explain better something, like the possibility of the
blood transfusion. What i meant though was that we should not mix
assumptions based on the anime and Ota's manga, which is a soft of
"parallel universe". Ota knew the anime of course but he developed
his own story without specific links to it. Actually, I would not like to
go off-topic, but my impression towards the blood transfusion is not
only that it has a symbolic mean in the anime storytelling (as we
have discussed previously) but it was meant also to reinforce the
concept of fleedians being a speciaf population, even between
"aliens". But I understand this could open a wider different
discussion, so I stop here.
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Agnès
H
Posté le 121O512004 L3:43:44
Réponse
I
di 16
*&*fi&*É
:
rdha a dit
:
ually, I would not like to go off-topic, but rny impression towards
he blood transfusion is not only that it has a symbolic mean in the
nime storytelling (as we have discussed previously) but it was
eant also to reínforce the concept of fleedians being a special
pulation, even between "aliens". But I understand this could open
wider different discussion, sQ I stop here.
I couldn't agree more, Gerdha. This has always been my impression
too.
In terms of "scientífic accuracy" we should perhaps also consider the
time in which Grendizer was created and the fact that our own
science and knowledge have evolved since then. Maybe some things
were less clear or more open to speculation than they are now thitty
years ago ...
In fact, when you think about it, there are many "unexplaínable"
elements in the story-line and world of Grendizer, and I'm not sure
that we'll be able to find any definite answers. Looks like very good
"all-explaining fan-fic" material to me. @
Sorry, have got to rush. Interesting discussion, though!
Live long and prosper ...
Gerdha
H
Posté le 1 21ABl20o4 13:48:58
*"8d**É
Réponse :
nès a dit :
coutdn't agree more, Gerdha. This has always been my impression
oo.
g
Réponse
nès a dit
I
:
n terms of "scientific accuracy" we should perhaps also consider the
ime in which Grendizer was created and the fact that our own
ience and knowledge have evotved since then. Maybe some things
ere fess clear or more open to speculation than they are now thirty
ea
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Absolutely. I agree completely. @ Ok"y, how does it come up that
we agree so much on sornething, Agnes? LOLI
-- Message
Suzi
I am not an alien but I am
H
g g # dffi
edité par gerdha le 2004-08 -LZ 13:56: 15--
Poste le
12
/O8/2AA4 14 : 0B : 32
tbìÉgreÉ
unique Ah! I guess we the TCT never fail to start another "crazy" discussion
from an unrelated threatl I W*tl, I guess that is what rnakes us TCT
worth our nam*. 0
I agree with you Gerdha that the transfusion was symbolic, and I
agree too that there are lots of hypotheseis that are continually being
defied by new scientific discoveries everyday,
After I wrote my post I thought about "this internal vital life", and
wondered if it could be some kind of bacteria or unicellular organisms
that absorb or thrive on radiation and therefore eventually clear it
(,....something like decomposing organisms that eat up dead things).
But I seriously can't recall seeing any big bombs dropped on Fleed in
ep 2 while Grendizer was fighting the Vegans and escaping. Yes
bombs were dropped here and there, but how in a devastated planet
can an)rone know what happened on the other side especially if they
are trying to run away? What I mean, you'd certainly expect TV,
radio and internet networks to be demolished (needless to say
houses, buildings, etc) and without media, how can anyone know?
If we suppose that DF white fighting the Vegans on Fleed saw them
throwing a bomb that "apparently" destroyed the planet, how could
he be certain that it destroyed ALL the planet if he hasn't returned to
assess the damage?
Naida in ep 25 stressed that she was with other Fleedians imprisoned
on Planet Fleed. And she might have been truly there before she was
transported to Planet Vega for the hypnotisatíon. Why do you only
assume that she was a liar about this? There is more than possíbility
here.
Vega thought the Planet was uninhabitable... and yes it could be true
that his offícers who guarded the Fleedian prisoners that he kept on
Planet Fleed were subjected to harmful radiation because they were
in the vicinty of where the nuclear bombs exploded and that is why
they all died or moved out, but it doesn't rnean that some parts of
the planet were not damaged by the radiation. He may have stopped
exploiting Planet Fleed and wrongly declared it a dead planet based
on biased data and events, and never cared about it again. So many
times arrogant leaders like him make wrong assumptions and take
the wrong decisions.
May I ask you a question, if you didn't have the Roman album to
know the "weird" explanation given by the authors to the
resurrection of Planet Fleed, how would you have personally
explained it, Gerdha?
And Agnes, y€s, it is true that we should put in consideration the
scientific knoweldge that was present in the 70's but some events in
the anime were presented with the scientific knowledge of the 40's,
not of the 70's. Besides Grendizer is a sci^fi so things should have
been more enticing. I can't deny either that the Vegan plots to
destroy Earth in some episodes e.g. 11, 15,20,2L,22,48were
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really very clever from a scientific point of view' Unfortunately, we
dídn't see much of these clever sci-fi ideas in which the natural
physical layout of our environment could be used against us by aliens
to destroy us.
So in a way, I don't believe that the authors were scientifically
ignorant, nevertheless, they didn't make use of their knowledge
appropraitely.
--Message edité par suzi le 2004-08-12 14:48:29--
"Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood."...,".'Marie Curie
"Patience achieves more than strength or fury"'.',La Fontaine
Gerdha
Hikaru still rulesl !l
El
posté te L2/0s/2004
L5:45:42
q {# S g B
Réponse :
uzi a dit :
er I wrote my post I thought about "this internal vital life", and
ondered if it could be some kind of bacteria or unicellular
rganisms that absorb or thrive on radiation and therefore
entuaf ly clear it (.. .,.something like decomposing organisms that
t up dead thinqs
It could be a sort of organism "eating" radioactivity indeed. But I am
more keen to believe to a sort of Vegatron Minus energy which is
able to neutralise the Vegatron Plus one which polluted the planet.
You see, we have ep71 and ep72 in sequence, so I can suppose that
the Author had the overall skeleton of the plot about the final of the
anime clearly ín theír minds. Duke Fleed knew about the scientific
possibílity of Vegatron Plus to be counterparted by Vegatrcn Minus,
because he explains himself what Morusu has done to him. He could
have known that from his scientific knowledge, but not only as a
technical hypothesis but as a fact. Maybe - just like us - the internal
composition of Planet Fleed was an hypothesis for fleedian scientists
too, and they were not sure, but they thought about Vegatron Minus
as the core of their planet, like the magma we earthling suppose the
heart of our planet is formed by. So when Rubina announces to Duke
Fleed his planet is "resurrecting" (thís is her definition: a
resurrection), he ís not surprised, he doesn't comment on the
scientific possíbility itself, but only sighs about a dream coming true
basically. I mean, I think the authors thought to a real internal sort
of energy Planet Fleed owns in its heaft, a kind of energy which could
counterpart Vegatron Plus bad radiations. And we know from ep71
that that positive radiation is Vegatron Minus. Afler all. Plus and
Minus are like "brothers", isn't ít? And Vega and Fleed had peaceful
refationships for a long time... you see, this would be another
symbolic approach, wouldn't it? Ah, I guess Agnes would líke this
post of mine... LOLI
Réponse l
uzi a dit :
ay I ask you a question, if you didn't have the Roman album to
now the "weird" explanation given by the authors to the
esurrection of Planet Fleed, how would you have personally
lained it, Gerdha?
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well, you could not believe me, but I thought about the positive
energy by myself during the years. In the beginning I thought to a
metJor faltíng there and changing sudden completely the atmosphere
of Planet Fleed, so pulling away the bad radiations. But later I
thought that the internal energy would have been more closer to the
whole idea of Fleed being a very special place, which seemed to
appear to me as a constant input from the authors. 5o finding out
that explanation from the Roman Album was a confirmation of an
idea which had been forming in my mind during the years' The
Vegatron Minus explanation from above is instead recent, as I got to
know the VO of ep71 only one year ago... ^-^
Réponse :
uzi a dit ;
ut I seriously can't recall seeing any big bombs dropped on Fleed in
p 2 while Grendizer was fighting the Vegans and escaping. Yes
mbs were dropped here and there, but how in a devastated planet
n anyone know what happened on the other side especially if they
re trying to run away? What I mean, you'd certainly expect TV,
adio and internet networks to be demolished (needless to say
ouses, buildiogS, etc) and without media, how can anyone know?
f we suppose that DF while fighting the Vegans on Fleed saw them
hrowing a bomb that "apparently" destroyed the planet, how could
e be certain that it destroyed ALL the planet if he hasn't returned
o assess the damaqe?
Duke Fleed talks in one episode (ep30 maybe, I don't recall exactly)
about THE bomb which devasted his planet. This ís in the ltalian
edition, I cannot be sure it's exact, but I find it to be not a nonsense.
A serie of "little" bombs with low level of Vegatron Plus, then a giant
explosion to annihilate the planet definitely. Without Vega being
aware completely of its true catastrophic consequences. It's what
Japan itself has experiencedr attacks to cities, a warning, then
Hiroshima and Nagasaki. USA have always justified themselves
telling they were not aware of how much powerful were that new
invention. Considering that the nuclear threat was a major issue in
1975,I don't see as a remote possibility that the authors thought to
a similar war scenario for the destruction of that special place named
Fleed (a symbof of the old Japan?). So I am going for rational
reasoning, considering all what we know in the anime, It's a fact that
DF flies away from Fleed at a certain point, even if Grendizer was
winning against the mini-UFO (ep2). And never before Rubina's
revelation he expresses the hypothesis of the concrete possibility to
return there. Why? If fleedians were still alive on the planet, he
would have been a total coward escaping away. Even staying on
Earth living a farm life but being aware that his planet "could" have
been still alive would have been coward as he owned Grendizer, an
at least good mean of transportation for once going to Fleed again
and check the situation. Instead, his sense of guiltiness in the anime
seems not to be related to the fear of being a coward initially, at
least up when Naida accuses him of exactly that sin. He is surprised
by Naida's words, he initially reacts violently to her accusation. I
guess that DF's sense of guiltiness - which existed well before ep25 has to be related to something different, So, why DF in a certain
moment decides to fly away? Well, if I am right, Duke Fleed saw the
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GOLDORAK Euphorien,.. - Forum Goldorak
big final Vegatron bomb explosion from the sky, and knew that
pollutions had turned the whole planet in a dead place because once
defetaed the mini-UFOs he flew over it with Grendizer and witnessed
the situation. And he decides to refugee somewhere in the universe
full of sense of guiltiness: he could not defend his population, maybe
he was even responsible of the attack (yes, this is my theory as I
explained in other posts), and he was the only survivor. Not bad as a
reason for a sense of guiltiness...
Réponse
uzi a dit :
:
ega thought lhe Planet was uninhabitable.,, and yes it could be
rue that his officers who guarded the Fleedian prisoners that he
ept on Planet Fleed were subiected to harmful radiation because
"ìey were in the vicinty of where the nuclear bombs exploded and
hat is why they af I died or moved out, but it doesn't mean that
ome parts of the planet were not damaged by the radiation. He
ay have stopped exploiting Planet Fleed and wrongly declared it a
ead planet based on biased data and events, and never cared
bout it again. So many times arrogant leaders like him make wrong
ssumptions and take the wrong decisions.
I don't believe it at all' The big Vegatron
bomb destroyed everything, and killed any form of life on Planet
Fleed, including fleedians and maybe Vega soldíers who could be
there. We have other exampfes in the anime of Vega letting die his
own soldiers after all. And anyway, that's what King Vega himself
knew as it's said in ep72: Planet Fleed was a dead planet' Just like fater - his own Planet Vega would have become' You see the
"brother planets" theme coming again in the light?
As you can understand,
Réponse
uzi a dit :
:
ida in ep 25 stressed that she was with other Fleedians
rnprisoned on Planet Fleed. And she rnight have been truly there
fore she was transpCIrted to Planet Vega for the hypnotisation.
hy do you only assume that she was a liar about this? There is
ore than possibilitV here.
Well, I have a puzzle, where all the pieces goes along more or less
very wefl together except one. So, to me the cases are twol the only
strange piece is the right one and afl the others are wrong, or the
contrary. I have tried to apply the first approach, i.e. to re-validate
the whole anime story assuming Naida was telling the truth, and it
gives me nothing. It's sure on the other side that she lied about the
fleedian brains. So, why should I not assume that she lied also about
everything else? It works, because not only there are some
particulars in VO which sounds very interesting to me, but also
because from my perspective it gives a perfect sense to ep25
meaning itself. I know I have never explained my ideas about ep25,
and of course I ask forgiveness for this, but this would require an MM
effort which I have no time and energy to face now. Sorry. I am not
able to progress decently even in my answer about ep63... (which
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anyway will arrive somehow next week, don't worry)
--Message edité par gerdha le 2004-08-L2 15:54:14--
H
e"&tà&$É
Posté le 1 7/OS/2004 19:16:03
I believed Duke Fleed escaped his planet because his father
asked
him not to let Grendizer stolen or destroyed by the enemy.
Even if ep2 pictures showed a winning grendizer, Duke Fleed was
seriously injured and grendizer was quite damaged, When he crashed
on earth, grendizer was out of order and Genzo Umon repaired and
even improved it I
Grendizer was really stronger after Genzo Umon intervention and
Duke Fleed learned more and more how to use grendizer correctly.
Duríng planet Fleed attack, Duke Fleed was a beginner !
And even if grendizer was strong he was attacked by a real swarm of
bees ! And I don't remember seeing it fighting a "golgoth" like giru
giru. So that indicates that he has done what he could and escaped
not to save his life, but to protect Grendizer from Vega as his father
wanted him to do,
Vega would have been invincible with such a weapon !
Alizée for ever
Stéphane Dumas
I
Elpostére12/og/200422;42:,35
Citation
Q{d*eÉ
:
uke Fleed talks in one episode (ep30 maybe,
bout THE bornb which devasted his planet
I don't recall exactly)
Looks like it could reach partially Mahefa's theory: A laser ray
touched Actarus when he tried to save Pollux/morros who created
the wound and the bomb was the final dose of radiation, remember
the flashback in episode 30? He runned away from the heat wave
caused by the bomb and forgetted to hide his wounded arm in which
the radiated particules entered in his body.
Suzi
Messages postes ; 305
H
Posté le 13/OS/2004 06:39:42
r$#ÈeÉ
Réponse
:
antus a dit
:
believed Duke Fleed escaped his planet because his father asked
im not to let Grendizer stolen or destroyed by the enemy.
ven if ep2 pictures showed a winning grendizer, Duke Fleed was
riously injured and grendizer was quite damaged. when he
rashed on earth, grendizer was out of order and Genzo umon
eparred and even improved it !
endizer was really stronger after Genzo Umon intervention and
uke Fieed learned more and more how to use grendizer correctly.
uring planet Fleed attack, Duke Fleed was a beginner l
d even if grendizer was strong he was attacked by a real swarm
f bees ! And I don't remember seeing it fighting a "golgoth" like
iru giru, So that indicates that he has done what he could and
scaped not to save his life, but to protecl Grendizer from Vega as
is father wanted him to do,
ega would have been invincible with such a weapon !
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GOLDORAK Euphorien.., - Forum Goldorak
Dantus, I believe that this information is only valid for the French
version, because neither in the Arabic version, VO Or italian version
of ep 2 we were given such information hat it was DF's father request
to trim to not tet ifre Vegans use Grendizer. Same applies to the
intenrention of Dr umon to improve Grendizer weaponery and train
DF to be a better user of the machine.
"Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood."..".,"Marie Curie
"Patience achíeves more than strength or fury"...'La Fontaine
H
Poste le 13/oS/2004 22:Q8:4L
so for the first time, the french version seems more coherent than
the others
!
How can you consider that this brave duke fleed can escape his
planet and let his people and his planet die while having the most
powerful weapon in the universe ?
In the french version, King vega is considered as the inventor of
grendizer but however it wasn't finished. Duke Fleed escaped vegan
troops but grendizer was damaged by simple ufos I And then DF
crashed on earth, and was almost dying when Urnon discovered him.
Remember Ep2 ? Blacki send an "anterak" that tried to force him to
crash on the ground with him on the low part of grendizer spaizer.
Blacki thought that Grendizer would be destroyed by this explosion'
but Grendizer is much more solid than that I
In ep69, he said to horus that he would survive to the golgoth
explosíon and in many other episode, grendizer had even worse !
So I think that's quite logical to think that Umon finished Grendizer
prototype and make it a so good weapon.
Congratulations Pr U*on
,È
I think I would learn many things from you
Alizee for ever
Suzi
H
I am not an alien but I
am
Posté le 14/0 B/2a04 12:07:06
!
*s$teÉ
unioue Ok Dantus, here are the differences. IN the VO and arabic version of
ep 2 Vega stole or took control of the scientific knowledge and
technology of Fleed to build Grendizer'
(accordíng to this information togic deduces that no Grendizer existed
before the Vegan occupatíon of Fleed).
In the same versions of ep 25, and 49 we hear a different story,
Grendizer was built by the Fleedians and existed before the Vegan
assault on Fleed. (This is very contradicting but I will not restart this
discuusion).
But the story about the origin of Grendizer and DF escape is not only
told in ep 2, in actual fact that was the "summary"; the details
followed later.
If you recall a dialogue in episode 7 that stated that the Bodyguards
monster saucer troops were the ones responsible for the destruction
of Fleed and that they were even more powerful than Grendizer
himself. And we have to admit that he did put a strong fíght against
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Jin Jin (Anterak 107 as known in the French Version), and if the minifo didn't attack him from the back then Grendizer would have
probably been pieces of metal in a scrap yard.
From that Dantus, I assume that DF had to fight a gang of these
bodyguard saucers before escaping with Grendizer to Earth (even if
not shown in the visual effects), that is why he couldn't win against
them and arrived to Earth in a pretty bad shape.
The reason he escaped from Fleed was because according to him it
was completely destroyed and became unihabitable' He stole
Grendizer from the Vegans because he didn't want them to use
Fleedian technology in plundering the universe and killing the
innocent.
I am not sure that we agree on the dialogues of episode 2 and 69. In
ep 2 Blacki ordered the monster saucer to crush Grendizer because
DF was injured and too weak to fight back, not because falling from a
heíght was satisfactory to destroy him.
In episode 69, DF never said to Zuril lunior that Grendizer would
survive an exploSion, in fact there was no explanation given to why
that idiot exploded himself (what I mean is, if he realfy wanted to
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destroy Grendizer he should have applied more of his saucer's body
over Grendizer (like what Mineo was doing in ep 9 before the
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magnetic waves disabled her self- explosion system), not just hold
his leg like that. That act by Zuril Junior confirms to me what
someone said to me once: " A brain isn't a teenager's best friend',. I
guess that is true to some extent.
--[t4essage edité par suzi le 2004-08-14 12:25: 18--
"Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood.".....,,.Marie Curie
"Patience achieves more than strength or fury"....La Fontaine
H
Posté le 14/oB/2004 L2:59:29
ibú&gÉ
OK so even in VO, there are contradictions about Grendizer origins
That's weird I We need a vegan point of view about it 0
Well if the dialogues are different, the pictures are the same
I
!
That was the picture Blacki had in mind when the ufo forced
grendizer to dive. So I think he really hoped to destroy grendizer by
doing that.
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Suzi
H
Posté le 1 slaFV?004 09:58;49
Bas
ry{éSeÉ
Yes, I am following you now, I thought you were talking about the
part when the monster saucer was pushing Grendizer over the cliff.
Ok about that picture, scientifically it is justified, just like an
aeroplane crashing straight to earth without breaking or landing
properly; falling under the effect of gravity from high altitudes for a
big heavy robot like Grendizer and topped by not less heavier saucer
is certainly going to do a lot of damage, so in a way Blacki is justified
in his plan, I see nothing wrong in that, it is very scientifically logical
and legitemate thinking. Grendizer was saved from crashing by Kojí.
HemighthavebeenrippedtopiecesifKojihasn.tintervened.We
don't know if this could have happened because it didn't happen as
planned.
In the Earth war, Vega
was only sending one monster a time to attack lap-a-n-qnly because
Grendizer was found there , not the whole Earth . If Vega were clever
he would have sent his saucers elsewhere at the same time.
Whereas he destroyed all Fleed, so how was he going to ensure that
all the pfanet was under his control by only one saucer monster? It
doesn't make sense, does it? That is why I think that he sent other
saucer monsters to destroy other parts of Planet Fleed other than the
capital city to ensure its total submission, or what do you think? If
you were to invade a country, you always work your way to the the
capital, and once secured, you would also try and secure other cities
to control insurgence and retaliation, won't you? And if this is done if
you were going to invade just one country, so imagine what it would
be like if you tried to invade a whole planet,.,..
I also have another evidence that there was more than one rnonster
As for the Bodyguards destroying Fleed.....
:
SaucerinvolvedinthedestructionofFleed,therewastheonethat
DFfoughtinep1theallfamousJiroJiro,andtheoneherecalledin
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